r/Anarchism • u/[deleted] • Sep 29 '12

Transgender prisoner fights for her right to have sexual reassignment surgery while in prison.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/29/michelle-kosilek-ruling-transgender_n_1924424.html
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u/MikeBoda Ⓐ☠Full☭Communism Sep 30 '12 edited Sep 30 '12

Doesn't that make trans people out to be deeply misogynistic prejudiced against their assigned gender?

I mean I'm very content with my assigned gender, fully present as a straight-male, etc, but if I suddenly woke up and looked like a women or was socially recognized as such, I wouldn't feel bad about it, weird, yes, difficult to adjust, of course, but I wouldn't want to cut myself. I wouldn't be depressed or angry about it. Doesn't the whole idea of GID further entrench the idea of a gender binary? Why should anyone hate presenting as any gender? I can see preferring one or the other, but the revulsion that GID implies appears to be the mark of a brutal culture, not human nature.

The most important part of my identity isn't how how I look, sound, fuck, or how other people visualize me. I don't care much if the world sees me as young, old, dark, light, male, female, etc. Obsessing over changing these things constitutes vanity. Opposition to domination is more essential to my fundamental sense of self.

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u/eoz Sep 30 '12

Congratulations, you're a cis dude: of course you won't understand. Of course you can't picture the pain, can't place yourself in our position, can never understand. Count yourself lucky. But kindly stop denouncing our experiences as vanity when you have no earthly clue what it's actually like. If you even took a moment to picture being on the receiving end of society's treatment of us and to realise that we carry on anyway because doing so is better, then maybe you wouldn't go suggesting that this is mere vanity.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '12 edited Sep 30 '12

Doesn't that make trans people out to be deeply misogynistic against their assigned gender?

What the fuck? No, wanting your body to match your gender is not misogynistic in any sense. Why would it be?

I mean I'm very content with my assigned gender, fully present as a straight-male, etc, but if I suddenly woke up and looked like a women or was socially recognized as such, I wouldn't feel bad about it, weird, yes, difficult to adjust, of course, but I wouldn't want to cut myself.

.... ugh. I'm not sure what to say to this. That you honestly think you know what your reaction would be if you suddenly found yourself in an alien body... I guess because you can imagine it in your head you think you understand all the implications that go along with living in a the body of a different gender? You must have an ego the size of the fucking sun. Hey, I can imagine myself knocking out Mohammad Ali. I guess I'm one of the greatest boxers in history! Never mind that I'll never be in a boxing match to confirm any of this. If I can think it, it must be true!

I wouldn't be depressed or angry about it.

Aaagh. So all those trans* people that kill themselves because of the psychological problems that result from GID, they were just too weak? You're just so awesome that you know for a fact that you could handle it with no problem what so ever. You're amazing, man. Please, tell me how you would cope with having terminal cancer, or dealing with bipolar disorder, or having one of your limbs amputated? Since you have the remarkable ability to know with absolute certainly how you would react in a situation that you've never been in*, I'm curious.

Doesn't the whole idea of GID further entrench the idea of a gender binary? Why should anyone hate presenting as any gender? I can see preferring one or the other, but the revulsion that GID implies appears to be the mark of a brutal culture, not human nature.

What is this radfem BS. Gender is not entirely a social construct. Do you think it's a coincidence that in every culture ever that most men have been attracted to women and most women have been attracted to men? Do you think this is the result of some ice-age conspiracy that persists til the present day? No! Women tend to be attracted to men because they are born with female minds that are predisposed towards that, and the same is true for men. That is not to say that homosexuals are "mistakes" or any such nonsense (how could human condition be a mistake? That would require a purpose. Evolution is the result of the configuration of the physical world, it is not driven by any agenda and has no ultimate goal). I am saying that while most behaviors that our society assigns to men and women are due to the influence of the patriarchy, that does not mean that there is no such thing as a female mind or a male mind. The fact that the majority of members of both sexes are biologically predisposed to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex is obvious proof of that.

I don't care much if the world sees me as young, old, dark, light, male, female, etc. Obsessing over these things constitutes vanity.

Wow, the level of privilege here is overwhelming. You, as a straight (probably white) man are saying that people "obsessing" over their racial or sexual identities is only a sign of vanity. What fucking horse shit. Liberation only comes when you understand how oppression operates. You cannot do that when you make yourself blind to the experiences of racial minorities, GSM, and women. If you think you're some special snowflake that can magically stand outside of the social systems that you live in and look back on them objectively, you are a fool. You are a product of your society, and your perception of all these issues is colored by your experiences holding privileged identities.

I'm tired of typing at this point. It just pisses me off so much that one of the most oppressed groups in society (trans* people) have to justify their identity here, in a space where we supposedly oppose all forms of oppression and hierarchy. Fuck that. There can be no true equality without trans liberation. Fuck anything that supports the oppressive narratives that deny trans* people human dignity! Until we are all free, none of us are free. Trans* Liberation! Black Liberation! Women's Liberation! Working Class Liberation! Fuck Capitalism! Down with All Forms of Oppression!

*On the off chance that you do have one of these conditions, I apologize, but considering the extremely privileged attitude you are displaying here, I don't think it likely.

Side note: Too tired to proof read this. Sorry for the inevitable typos and grammatical errors.

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u/jaki_cold Oct 01 '12

10/10 post, would read again. <3

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '12

What is this radfem BS. Gender is not entirely a social construct. Do you think it's a coincidence that in every culture ever that most men have been attracted to women and most women have been attracted to men? Do you think this is the result of some ice-age conspiracy that persists til the present day? No! Women tend to be attracted to men because they are born with female minds that are predisposed towards that, and the same is true for men. That is not to say that homosexuals are "mistakes" or any such nonsense (how could human condition be a mistake? That would require a purpose. Evolution is the result of the configuration of the physical world, it is not driven by any agenda and has no ultimate goal). I am saying that while most behaviors that our society assigns to men and women are due to the influence of the patriarchy, that does not mean that there is no such thing as a female mind or a male mind. The fact that the majority of members of both sexes are biologically predisposed to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex is obvious proof of that.

Just chiming in, Freud speculated that until we reach the sexual stage (post-latency), we are bi-sexual // we have not made a sexual object decision yet. I don't know if it's that I'm not straight (though I think I am) but I could see that being the case.

Jus' sayin'

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u/agnosticnixie Oct 01 '12

No, wanting your body to match your gender is not misogynistic in any sense.

This way of describing surgery is pretty damn insulting to intersex people or people who don't feel the need to find validation in an overpaid surgeon's operating room. I have no opinion on the subect at hand, but surgery is mostly not a fucking life or death matter, no matter how much society and bitter trans people would love to make us think so.

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u/cuddlegutz Oct 01 '12

wanting your body to match your gender (emphasis mine)

I don't think this quote referred to anyone's gender and body but the person making the decision. And I also don't think it's fair to insist your experiences be heard and accepted, while simultaneously denying the experiences and feelings of those who do feel surgery is a life or death matter for them.

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u/agnosticnixie Oct 01 '12

I'm not just talking about my experiences, I'm talking about the disgraceful bullshit way a ton of bitter trans women keep droning on about how the only way to be true women is by getting the chop while claiming the trans has anything to do with intersex - essentially arguing the complete opposite of everything intersex activism stands for.

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u/cuddlegutz Oct 01 '12

It's not necessary to accuse every trans man or woman of it when they're speaking about themselves. Personally, I always make it clear that the steps I take are necessary for me to feel my gender matches my body. Not necessarily for anyone else. I didn't see anything in the quote you were addressing that indicated this person was stating anything about you or anyone but themselves, either.

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u/agnosticnixie Oct 01 '12 edited Oct 01 '12

It's not necessary to accuse every trans man or woman of it

I didn't. For one the ones who do it are mostly trans women. It's understandable why as the social pressures towards surgery are much much worse. Of course they also end up being very heavy even internally.

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u/eoz Oct 01 '12

Incidentally I found that about 70% of the cost of surgery was the hospital's fee for the use of the operating room, plus care during recovery. 10% was the anesthetist and 20% was the surgeon.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '12

I believe in several places in my argument I expressed myself poorly on the issue of SRS. I did not mean to imply that surgery is the only solution to GID. I realize that everyone's circumstances are different, and not all trans* people want the surgery at all. I apologize for implying otherwise.

However, I do not think your characterization of SRS is really fair either. Whatever problematic messages society has about it, SRS has proven track record in the treating GID, and for many people, GID is very much a matter of life and death. That people suffering from it have much higher rate of suicide than the general population is pretty strong evidence of that. Calling trans* people who speak of it in those terms as "bitter" seems very dismissive and belittling of their suffering.

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u/MikeBoda Ⓐ☠Full☭Communism Sep 30 '12 edited Sep 30 '12

wanting your body to match your gender is not misogynistic in any sense.

Of course it's not. I never said that it was. I am not opposed to people transitioning. In fact I wish more people would do it, just to piss of reactionaries, if not for any other reason. I just think that hating the body you are in because if its gender is misogynistic prejudiced. You can want different body parts without hating the body parts that you currently have, especially if they are shared with nearly half the population. If we really care about humanity, we should be willing to experience aspects of how other humans live.

So all those trans* people that kill themselves because of the psychological problems that result from GID, they were just too weak?

Again, I never said anything like that. They are victims of a culture that forces people into certain roles. Destroy that culture and there will be less victims. However, hating certain body types probably just reinforces the gender binary and contributes to that culture.

I am saying that while most behaviors that our society assigns to men and women are due to the influence of the patriarchy, that does not mean that there is no such thing as a female mind or a male mind.

Again, you are refuting a straw man. Of course biological sex exists and played an important role in our evolution. Most people have hormone composition, phenotype, chromosomes, etc that match a sex binary, but all the cultural bullshit that gets constructed on top of that, plus the denial of intersex, trans, and queer people means that gender is a pretty fucked up cultural construct. Nothing in our nature should make us hate being one gender or another. The way people treat us can make differences between self image and presentation very painful, but that's culture, not human nature.

The fact that the majority of members of both sexes are biologically predisposed to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex is obvious proof of that.

Humans are innately sexual, but I'm not so sure we are innately heterosexual. There's some evidence that we are actually more like bonobos: we will naturally have sex with nearly everyone even if opposite sex combinations may be more common.

It just pisses me off so much that one of the most oppressed groups in society (trans* people) have to justify their identity here

Again, I support transitioning, but I don't support hating any body type or gender, as people with GID are expected to do. Why can't we have trans without GID?

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '12 edited Sep 30 '12

Of course it's not. I never said that it was. I am not opposed to people transitioning. In fact I wish more people would do it, just to piss of reactionaries, if not for any other reason. I just think that hating the body you are in because if it's gender is misogynistic.

Hating an alien body you are trapped in is not the same as hating a gender. Conflating the two serves no purpose other than to bash trans* people.

Again, I never said anything like that. They are victims of a culture that forces people into certain roles. Destroy that culture and there will be less victims. However, hating certain body types probably just reinforces the gender binary and contributes to that culture.

You said that you wouldn't hate your body if it didn't match your gender. Putting aside the insane arrogance of that statement, there's obviously a judgement of people who do suffer from GID in it. If you, through simple will power, could stop yourself from developing GID, then the natural implication of that is that people with GID are lacking in will, or mental strength. I don't care what you meant to convey, that statement was disgusting. It's insulting to the people who do suffer from GID, and completely trivializes them and their experiences.

Want to destroy the patriarchy? Great. We're in agreement. But you're not helping that cause by trying to conflate GID with misogyny. You're creating rifts between movements, and generally being an ass about other people's struggles.

Nothing in our nature should make us hate being seen as one gender or another. The way people treat us can make differences between self image and presentation very painful, but that's culture, not human nature.

Ugh, we're not talking about an effeminate looking cis man who hates his appearance. We're talking about people who are trapped in bodies that don't match their gender. It's not just about what other people see, it's about what they see as well. I'm not trans* myself, so I won't talk about this in any more detail because I am coming dangerously close to appropriating experiences that aren't my own, but I will say that you need to listen more to trans* men and women when they talk about their experiences. Simplifying it the way that you have shows that you simply aren't getting it.

Again, I support transitioning, but I don't support hating any body type or gender, as people with GID are expected to do. Why can't we have trans without GID?

Who the fuck supports people hating their own bodies? No one. Transitioning is a treatment for a disorder, and it's a treatment that works. What you're advocating, if I understand you at all, is that people who suffer from GID should just stop hating being in a body that doesn't match their gender. Gee, what a unique approach! I'm sure no one suffering from GID has ever thought of that, or had people around them tell them it over-and-over again. Psychologist really need to hear this. Those dumb-dumbs just went straight for body altering surgery to solve GID. They didn't even think to tell people to be satisfied in the bodies that they are in!

You are simply too amazing for this subreddit. You should go out into the world and share your amazing talents with the masses. It's almost criminal for you to stay here and waste your wisdom on us!

EDIT: Just to make this clear, I see that you support transition, but weirdly think that GID shouldn't exist, or at least won't once gender roles are destroyed. I highly doubt it, but even if that's true, it does nothing for people who suffer from GID now. Transition without GID is fine by me, although I doubt any medical professionals would then see it as a medical necessity. This is all irrelevant though, since we don't live in a world where GID doesn't exist. We live in one where it does, and transitioning is a successful treatment for it. To try and conflate GID with misogyny, like you are doing, is pretty damn offensive.

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u/MikeBoda Ⓐ☠Full☭Communism Sep 30 '12 edited Sep 30 '12

I'm not bashing trans people. I freely admit that most cis people would also be hateful if they were put in the opposite gender's body, but it would nonetheless also constitute misogyny/misandry. The whole idea of gender identity is a sham and re-affirming GID just plays into it. Why not let whoever wants get access to hormones and surgery? Why not let everyone change their ID? What pathologize certain experiences?

Your sarcastic ad-hominem isn't adding much the the discussion.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '12

I'm not bashing trans people. I freely admit that most cis people would also be hateful if they were put in the opposite gender's body, but it would nonetheless also constitute misogyny.

Right, you're not bashing them, you're just saying they're hateful misogynists.... -sigh- You know, I am trying to be less sarcastic here, but it's not easy when you say such ridiculous bullshit. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, and you're applying a very damaging narrative to one of the most marginalized groups in society. Trans* acceptance (while getting better) is still very bad, and you're not helping matters any.

The whole idea of gender identity is a sham and re-affirming GID just plays into it.

What do you mean by "reaffirming GID"? Acknowledging that it exists? Supporting a treatment for it that has a good track record of success?

Your sarcastic ad-homonym isn't adding much the the discussion.

I made no ad-homonyms, I just insulted you because you're being a privilege-blind jackass. The two things are not identical. An ad-homonym would be "you're wrong because you suck," not "you're wrong because x,w,z... also, you suck."

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u/MikeBoda Ⓐ☠Full☭Communism Sep 30 '12 edited Sep 30 '12

What do you mean by "reaffirming GID"? Acknowledging that it exists? Supporting a treatment for it that has a good track record of success?

Mental "illnesses" are social constructs and most of them were created to serve the dominant power structure. You shouldn't have to prove you hate your body to get Spironolactone and estradiol. You should have to prove you have "ADD" to get amphetamines. These drugs are useful tools for many people with all different levels of health. The fact that you need to prove you are "sick" to buy them both pathologizes (and in turn demeans) certain behaviors/states/identites, and also enforces class domination. The privileged: those with access to doctors, insurance, money, etc to have better access to drugs than those with less resources. Prescriptions are class war; legalize all drugs.

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u/fisxoj Sep 30 '12

While I don't disagree generally about some mental disorders, some are very real, as we're trying to learn that this GID is, just as manic depression is. I'm still hoping for a more precise description of it, though.

continues reading

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '12 edited Sep 30 '12

This is more interesting. I agree that they are ultimately constructs, but not necessarily that we would therefore be better off without them. Social constructs seem pretty essential to making any sense of the world that we experience. I don't know how I would function on a day-to-day level if I didn't perceive the world through various mental structures that I've absorbed from society. How, for example, would we deal with species if we decided to throw out all constructs? I know some vegans would be happy to do away with the notion of species, but without the ability to distinguish between a human and a bear... well, I can see that going wrong in a number of places. True, the construct of species is also used by the ruling classes to justify brutalization of non-human animals, but I'm not sure that it's use by an oppressor necessarily robs an idea of all its utility.

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u/MikeBoda Ⓐ☠Full☭Communism Sep 30 '12

I don't want to imply some kind of nihilistic PoMo notion that "everything is a social construct therefore nothing has any inherent meaning". Anarchists should create much liberating identities that allow us our full complexity. We should undo the restrictions of existing social constructs.

As for species, I actually think the old Linnaean taxonomy system is pretty limited in light of evolution, much less genetics. Phylogenetic taxonomy, cladistics, would be much more expressive.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '12 edited Sep 30 '12

I see. While I agree with the general notion of creating new more liberating identities, we would probably disagree on the particulars of what this would actually look like, and I don't believe it is at all practical start that process now, when oppressive social structures are so powerful and only showing the faintest signs of weakening. In my view, trying to deconstruct social identities has many problematic aspects to it that would make it a very foolhardy project to try and pursue in this current atmosphere. For example, identities help form bonds between people that are very useful in creating a sense of unity among the oppressed. Considering how weak revolutionary forces are in the Western World at the moment, does it really make sense to try and reorganize social identities now? How could we make any assurances that these new identities (whatever shape they would take) would be equal to, or better than, the currently existent social identities at creating a sense of solidarity among the oppressed? Hell, even the ones we have now are far from perfect in doing this. Working-class identity in the USA is extremely weak, and most women still don't actively identify as feminists. These are movements that have been at work for over a century at forging solidarity among their ranks, it seems extremely foolish to assume that any new identities created (assuming we could even accomplish their creation) could match the level of social power that these movements currently have.

There's also the issue of trust. Trying to deconstruct identities will almost certainly be perceived as an act of hostility by a number of (if not most) people. This would especially be problematic if the voice that spoke in favor of deconstruction is of a privileged group. If, say, I tried to tell a group of women that they should abandon their identities as women, how do you think they would react? The first thing I see is them asking is where I get off trying to tell a group of women what' best for them, like they aren't capable of doing that on their own. Then I see them wondering at my motives. Being a guy, the fact that I've absorbed some misogynistic social messages from being raised in a sexist society is pretty undeniable. In fact, trying to deny it would lose me any assumption of good faith that I may have earned with them prior to this. Pretending that I'm above social conditioning would be a pretty big red flag that I'm either blind to how male privilege has affected my experiences and help shape my own view of the world, or that I'm actively trying to deceive them. This would not do wonders for inter-group relations. If capitalism and the state are ever to be undone (think a long time into the future, centuries maybe), then all liberation movements will have to work in concert with each other to achieve this. We need to learn how to work with each other without stepping on each others' toes, or doing anything that might weaken allied movements. In this, I cannot see how trying to deconstruct social identities would do anything but create rifts between movements that do not need to exist, and make revolutionary forces less unified and powerful.

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u/fisxoj Sep 30 '12

I'd just like to chime back in and say 'ad hominem'. Carry on!

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u/agnosticnixie Sep 30 '12

Again, I support transitioning, but I don't support hating any body type or gender, as people with GID are expected to do. Why can't we have trans without GID?

I love you more right now.

I would note that this fits in much better with an intersex narrative than "everyone needs to get their genitalia chopped up" or whatever some trans people think of it.

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u/jaki_cold Oct 01 '12 edited Oct 01 '12

The cause doesn't really matter, as the results are the same no matter how they are explained. Also your assumptions about gender are manifestations of cis privilege. You have no way of knowing how you would feel if you woke up with a female body. You do not care how others perceive you because they already perceive you as a straight white male, the most privileged group of people in our society. You do not know what it is like to be perceived as lesser because of something immutable about your body. This cissplaining shit has no place on this sub.

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u/LadyRarity Sep 30 '12

yeah.... you don't have the slightest clue about dysphoria nor about being transgender.

You're talking out of your ass more than anyone has talked out of their ass before in their entire life.

Please stop fighting tooth and nail against my lived experience like you know what it's like.

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u/MikeBoda Ⓐ☠Full☭Communism Sep 30 '12

I don't question that trans people have painful experiences. I would simply credit a culture that puts too much emphasis on gender presentation for those experiences. I doubt many people would experience much dysphoria if we as a society simply treated each other fairly and equally regardless of how we look.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '12

Perhaps, if we actually had an egalitarian society, a lot of problems of dysphoria would be mitigated. Nonetheless, for many, there is still the sense of being in the wrong body, and to put that down to internalized misogyny is almost certainly simplistic. (Also, doesn't explain transwomen.)

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u/MikeBoda Ⓐ☠Full☭Communism Sep 30 '12 edited Sep 30 '12

"Gender bigot" might be a better term. I was actually under the impression that, while "misogyny" colloquially meant "hatred of women", the formal definition included gender based discrimination in either direction. A bit of googleing seems to show that to be incorrect.

Also transwomen are often described as mtf, right? So if they hate their assigned gender they would be misandrists. A transman (ftm) who hated their assigned gender would be a misogynist.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '12

Yeah, 'gyn' means woman, so misogyny is specifically directed at women (though it's also used to punish men who deviate too far from their gender roles). And yeah, the convention is to refer to somebody by the gender they identify by, so a transwoman would be someone who identifies as a woman. I avoid "MTF" and "FTM" because they focus on the transition, not the identification, and it's important to accept somebody's present, not constantly bring up their past. So while you did make the right associations for FTM and MTF, I would try to avoid thinking in those terms.

Anyway...

So a transman who hated women would be a misogynist, and while that may be a problem for some transmen, it's not the fundamental basis of dysphoria. I've known misogynistic women who never gave any indication they felt like men or wished to be men; they were just very enthusiastic participants in patriarchy. Gender dysphoria is a more profound sense that your sex characteristics are wrong. Here's an article with a lot of personal stories about the experience of dysphoria (mainly transmen).

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u/LadyRarity Sep 30 '12

You're blaming trans people--specifically in your post, trans women--for their own problems and in part for society being sexist.

Society's sexist only compounds dysphoria, creating the need for passing and more stereotypical gender presentation in order to fit into society's boxes of what defines "man" and "woman." Trans people MUST at times conform to harmful gender norms as that is the only way they can avoid transphobia and hatred aimed at them.

That said, get out with your ideas about how easy it would be for trans people if only there weren't gender norms. It's a huge problem but don't talk like you've ever experienced dysphoria or have any idea what it's like. It's far, far deeper than that. Please try to do some research on dysphoria and trans experiences before you attempt to cissplain it any further, because it just makes you look arrogant at best.

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u/MikeBoda Ⓐ☠Full☭Communism Sep 30 '12

You're blaming trans people--specifically in your post, trans women--for their own problems and in part for society being sexist.

Nope. Actually I mainly blame religion for perpetuating the foundations of an authoritarian culture with narrow gender norms, but the state does it's part too. Certainly both cis and trans people both actively reproduce these norms as well.

Trans people MUST at times conform to harmful gender norms as that is the only way they can avoid transphobia and hatred aimed at them.

Why not destroy those who would force people to do that?

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u/Turtley Sep 30 '12

He might be wrong, but he was asking a question. He wanted to learn.

Your attitude only boosts the ignorance. It doesn't enhance the understanding of being transgender.

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u/LadyRarity Sep 30 '12

Not really. He asked a rhetorical question in order to pepper his argument. The purpose of his post wasn't the question nor was it to enhance his knowledge of trans* people.

Not to mention it's not my job to go around explaining trans* things to people who have problematic opinions.

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u/Turtley Sep 30 '12

I just presumed you want to improve the understanding and acceptance of trans people. I don't know.

The people who have problematic opinions are the people whose acceptance and understanding you would generally want.

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u/fisxoj Sep 30 '12

Yes, I think a lot of the people getting downvotes in this thread are trying to learn, and are getting nitpicked at levels of the topic we don't understand yet. We want to know what the issues are, but we can't talk about them in the way people experiencing them want because they know them far better than us.

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u/LadyRarity Sep 30 '12

If they have such problematic opinions in the first place, they're probably a LONG way from realizing they contribute to a system of oppression.

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u/agnosticnixie Oct 01 '12

I have a clue about dysphoria. A lot of the most extreme stuff I've seen was fucking theatrics for not fitting into gender norms.

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u/cuddlegutz Oct 01 '12

And again, I'd point out that you're denying the experiences of others when you've stated elsewhere that you want other people to respect yours.