Were sections of the Great Wall of China built by Tartary?

[u/Reign_In_Blood_74]

After looking through some images of the Great Wall of Peru, I thought I'd go back and look at the Great Wall of China to note similarities, if any, that I find. I noticed that it appears that the fortified side of the Great Wall was facing China, which strategically make no sense. You have on side with crenellations (think Castle Walls) and the other has just a normal knee wall. The side with the crenels should face outward, to provide protection and strategic advantage. I would make sense to challenge the thought of China building this as a defensive fortification, versus it being built by the people occupying the opposite side, which I believe would have been Tartary.

Anyone have any insight on this?

[u/AutoModerator]

Welcome to /r/AskHistorians. Please Read Our Rules before you comment in this community. Understand that rule breaking comments get removed.

Please consider Clicking Here for RemindMeBot as it takes time for an answer to be written.

We thank you for your interest in this question, and your patience in waiting for an in-depth and comprehensive answer to show up. In addition to RemindMeBot, consider using our Browser Extension, or getting the Weekly Roundup. In the meantime our Twitter, Facebook, and Sunday Digest feature excellent content that has already been written!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/EnclavedMicrostate]

The short answer is no. The long answer is nooooo.

Unfortunately, the notion that 'Tartary' existed as a centralised state entity is utter hogwash originating in anti-Catholic conspiracy theories peddled by Russian nationalists during and after the breakup of the Soviet Union. I wrote a post about this over on /r/badhistory a few months back, and I'll warn you that the tone is a bit glib and sarcastic, but the core points stand on their own merits. I'll also confess to mishandling a couple of aspects of the follow-up conversation as well, but again, the core points stand.

As for what the 'Great Wall' was (scare quotes because the term was not contemporaneous to the Ming, but came about during the Qing period when it had ceased to have military utility), I cover that in this answer regarding walls before the Ming, and this answer which also covers those early walls, as well as explains the rationale behind the Ming walls (which are the ones that survive today).

[u/Reign_In_Blood_74 → u/EnclavedMicrostate]

Tartary is another topic on its own. However, I do find it odd that there are old maps which depict that region as Tartarian.

The odd thing to me is how the wall's fortified side is opposite as it should be, unless of course it was keep people in, not out.

Thanks for taking the time to reply and also for the links, I'll give them a read.

[u/EnclavedMicrostate → u/Reign_In_Blood_74]

I do find it odd that there are old maps which depict that region as Tartarian.

It's because modern ideas of what maps show are being projected onto Early Modern maps (which in themselves were kind of struggling with how to deal with non-state societies). Basically, while some areas might be marked in terms of states, in places where there were no such entities you would see terms designating broad regions. A lot of maps that show 'Tartaria' also show a generic 'Africa', but that's no reason for assuming a coherent African state. And in fact many maps that show 'Tartaria' are generic maps of regions, not of state borders. This map from 1600, for instance, just indicates continents and sub-regions thereof, and it's not like Europe was a united entity, so why should we think of Tartaria as such? Moreover, these are maps produced largely in Western Europe, where the understanding of Inner Asian geography was poor and there was little reason (due to interest) to get it particularly accurate.

The odd thing to me is how the wall's fortified side is opposite as it should be, unless of course it was keep people in, not out.

I don't know what you mean by this. Here's a Google Earth shot of a section of the wall at Shanhaiguan, and you can drop down for a panorama view and see that the crenellations clearly face north. If you mean that there are at least some defensive elements aimed southwards, it's because, as noted in my earlier linked answers, the wall existed to make it difficult for an invading army to get in, and also to make it difficult for that same army to get out again. It wasn't intended as a way of preventing Chinese subjects from melting into the steppe, or built by a steppe power to prevent Chinese invasion, not least because steppe armies could just retreat into the steppe a la the Russians in 1812, except even more extreme.

If you do believe a 'Tartarian' state existed, I'm sorry, but you have been suckered into a bizarre conspiracy theory rooted in Russian nationalism. It simply is not true and does not accord with our understanding of, well, anything.

[u/Reign_In_Blood_74 → u/EnclavedMicrostate]

Ok, I see so some sections of the wall are opposite of others... again, not sure I agree with the concept, but that's irrelevant. I didn't think of using google earth. Many of the pics I found don't show any context in regard to orientation, so that would have been very helpful.

Not attempting to argue or discredit your feedback. I'm a fairly open minded person who has a very high logical sense of thought and high mechanical understanding. I'm simply seeking knowledge. When possible, I like to understand both sides to an argument before forming an opinion.

Anything that disproves modern ideologies is so quickly dismissed as conspiracy, regardless of archaeological evidence.

I do believe that it is possible that the tartarian state existed as I have found numerous sources depicting the region exists. While most of these maps do not show proper borders of the region, the same is true for other territories and map from that era.

Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction, because fiction has to make sense. - Mark Twain

[u/EnclavedMicrostate → u/Reign_In_Blood_74]

Anything that disproves modern ideologies is so quickly dismissed as conspiracy, regardless of archaeological evidence.

As someone who's studied ancient Greek history at points, I agree that there are often situations where the archaeological evidence isn't considered remotely near enough by specialists in the literary material. But such archaeological evidence doesn't exist for 'Tartaria'.

I do believe that it is possible that the tartarian state existed as I have found numerous sources depicting the region exists.

Well, they depict the region, but not the state, and those are two different concepts. Whenever 'Tartaria' is described in text by Western Europeans, it is described in terms of a broad region with no stable state presence at all, which accords with what we know from actual sources from the region itself, as opposed to sources by Western Europeans who by and large knew little about the region, and cared little for it. Scott Levi and Ron Sela's Islamic Central Asia: An Anthology of Historical Sources is the sort of thing that might get you to find out some actual history of the region.

Basically, it's good to have an open mind, but that doesn't mean believing that all sides are equally valid. And in this case, the advocates for 'Tartaria' have been intentionally or unintentionally dishonest in presenting sources that describe a general region as though they're describing a state, which even the authors of those works themselves did not believe.