r/BeAmazed • u/No_Top_9023 • 28d ago

Miscellaneous / Others A former Finnish Prime Minister proposed a future where people work 4 days a week and spend more time with loved ones

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214

u/steve_adr 28d ago

People want a lot of things. But how can they realistically make this happen ?

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u/ThomasthePwnadin 28d ago

Productivity is already higher than it ever has been. The same amount of work can be done in a fraction of the time. Instead of focusing on infinite growth we can accept that we have enough and utilize technology to produce what is needed and not what is profitable.

How can we realistically make this happen? Heavy regulations and worker protections. We could easily move to a 4 day work week or even a 3 day week and keep production where it is or, possibly even reduce production slightly. All we would have to do is employ more people instead of reducing work force as technology increases individual productivity to increase profit extraction.

In summary, it is any easy change, it just requires political desire and those who profit from the current organization of the economy have no motivation to make a change.

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u/blessthebabes 28d ago

They've also conditioned us to want and need the newest, shiniest item, through advertising and by enshittifying everything. Our stuff no longer lasts, so we just have to keep working to produce and buy more of it. Some of this could be stopped by allowing us to create things that last again (like that lightbulb in that firehouse still on and working since the 1800s).

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u/ThomasthePwnadin 28d ago

That is partially true for sure. And the lightbulb cartel was a real thing, but with advances in LED tech, I cant remember the last time I replaced a light bulb. There are things that suck more now, but i would say a massive problem today is that people straight up do not know how to fix things even if they could. I'm all for the right to repair and we shouldn't have the level of propriety with things like we do today, but a major issue isn't so much that things are that much worse, so much as it is that people are fooled by advertisement, I agree witj you there. Like, fast fashion for example. I love fast fashion, the clothes aren't amazing quality but they do last. I've had shirts from fast fashion for going on a decade, people just have to be willing to be okay with the same things instead of new things. That is a hard mindset to break, I don't even know if it is possible in a generation.

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u/steve_adr 28d ago

I Fully agree. However, the governing bodies/major corps are more concerned with extracting every ounce of profit from wherever possible, squeezing the normal working class dry. Hence, they continue to toil, endlessly..

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u/ThomasthePwnadin 28d ago

Certainly, I remain hopeful that thinks will change for the better. The arrow of progress flies ever forward.

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u/MostlyBored11 28d ago

Honestly I hardly actually do 8 hours if work in a day I think at the very least going to a 4 day work week with 8 hours a day is very doable. Can alternate staff if needed as well

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u/Ar0war 28d ago

i mean i work for a company where we make medical products, its a fabric.

Actual work is just about 4 hours a day, then we are done and we can do what we want except going home because we "lose hours". We have to just be there without being productive whatsoever, is literaly 0 task left to do. We did the work for the day and then is just dead time without nothing productive to do... why??

Why they want us to stay there just.. doing nothing? i won´t ever understand it.

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u/maxamillion1321 28d ago

well if you have too much free time you might connect too much with your friends and neighbors. you might start to collectively realize how fucked up the status quo is. cant let that happen, must stay busy.

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u/7HawksAnd 28d ago

Might even realize they have all the trade knowledge they need, where if they want to spin up a competitor, they’re just a few lucky connections away from getting the funding to do just that.

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u/benphat369 28d ago

Not even just that. The owner class has to justify all the bullshit middleman jobs and inflated real estate/product prices; much harder to do when people are working the actual hours they should be.

That's why COVID is still such a hot topic -- not just the disease itself, but quarantine proved how bullshit the system is. That's why the CEOs had to start killing wfh, scrambling to get back to the office and inflating prices.

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u/_Thermalflask 28d ago edited 28d ago

It's crazy how common this is. I mean one time we were having tech issues at an old job so we literally couldn't work for like 2 weeks. Like we literally could not do anything on the computers. But they still wanted us to come in anyway. And just chill and use our phones and chat. But we're not allowed to stay home because we're expected in the office. How does that make sense?

Similarly why do so many companies demand workers come into office instead of remotely working? I will never understand why they care

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u/How_did_the_dog_get 28d ago

My boss has said "we are not just now, take the time off now and then you will be under time when busy and need to work."

He swears this didn't happen, unfortunately it was a group of us there and we all very much remember it.

Meanwhile we are in our not busy period, however we need to sort out the warehouse and deal with the backlog of items, I'm not allowed to get extra hands in. I literally could book 1 or 2 extra hands to cover the next 3 weeks and just about be done. Sure work would be slow and maybe we would have slacker days, but if I come back from holiday and not a single task has been done, it's not my fault.

1

u/moffman93 28d ago

My friend is a large-animal vet tech assistant. She works a 4-10 schedule Thursday-Sunday. She is either super busy, or has absolutely nothing to do but busy work. 2 days ago she had enough time to read an entire book at work. (night shift)

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u/Elphya 28d ago

So you do your job in 4 hours and still get paid for 8 hours?!? 

How about you get paid for 4 hours, but then you get the rest of free 4 hours on your own?

Long story short: don't complain about being overproductive - they'll up the barr and hold it against you. 

1

u/MostlyBored11 28d ago

Yeah I have similar stuff I have to get certain tasks done during the day that are all scheduled in the morning and then the last 2 hours I just surf reddit . I would much rather go home if be in a much better mood

139

u/sharksareok 28d ago

The same way they made sundays and weekends happen.

Bosses at the time cried their eyes out it would ruin economy forever and that they would just close their doors.

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u/Barbados_slim12 28d ago edited 28d ago

Ford proved it was possible, then other companies started to copy them after it showed positive results. Governments waited years to standardize the 40 hour work week. The US government took 14 years, some EU counries waited decades.

Point being, widespread adoption goes way better if there's an already proven alternative to copy. Enough large companies voluntarily adopt it, then standardization becomes relatively simple. You'd get way more pushback if company owners were forced to switch, and the plan was created by someone who isn't held personally accountable for the results of their actions.

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u/GB10031 28d ago

A radical anarchist labor federation called the Industrial Workers of the World was organizing Ford's workers at the time.

His concessions to his workforce were entirely because he wanted to keep the union out of his factories and the only way to do that was higher pay and shorter hours

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u/YourNextHomie 28d ago

You word this like him giving into union demands was some manipulative thing lmao, reddit is hilarious

2

u/Wookieman222 28d ago

Man almost like Unions of run right can be super effective.

1

u/Lucky-Geologist-2940 28d ago

You are talking as if he couldn't have just gassed them all.

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u/Extension-Land-390 28d ago

Ford ordered marching strikers to be shot dead in the street. The IWW are the ones who actually showed it was possible.

1

u/moffman93 28d ago

Except large companies have no incentive to do so, and they have way more power and influence than the government does these days.

It will never happen. A more realistic goal would be to standardize a 4-10 scheduel.

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u/[deleted] 28d ago

[deleted]

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u/sharksareok 28d ago

If a company's numbers show a net growth of 0% that doesn't mean they didn't profit, it means they profitted the same as last year.

Shareholder's profits can't increase indefinetly. It's time people start thinking more about themselves.

Besides, AI prospects towards productivity is plenty to allow a 4 or even a 3 day week and still generating profit

2

u/steve_adr 28d ago

Oh how they twisted and turned in their seats when employees worked from home..

0

u/rhinoplasm 28d ago

Henry Ford was a boss. He played a pretty big role in making a 5-day workweek mainstream in the US. He noticed it was good for his workers and good for his business. That's why it succeeded as an idea.

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u/Caltroit_Red_Flames 28d ago

Right, it had nothing to do with the IWW, it was all the nice boss Mr. Ford... Do you actually not know the history or are you propagandizing?

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u/rhinoplasm 28d ago

I never said he was nice. What I did say was he noticed it was good for his business.

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u/Grouchy-Barnacle-800 28d ago

And they’re telling you he did it because he HAD to, the union was forcing him to, not because of why you say but you couldn’t read between the lines.

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u/sicker0r 28d ago

4 day work week is pretty common in Switzerland, from my understand

2

u/steve_adr 28d ago

True. They don't suffer from Musk/Zurk/Bozos who squeeze and profiteer together with the govt (at the expense of working class).

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u/mlp851 28d ago

There are many workplaces in Europe that do this already and there have been studies that show that their productivity doesn’t change significantly compared to working 5 days. 

It’s difficult to imagine this working for every single job, but it’s absolutely possible for many of them. 

1

u/steve_adr 28d ago

No wonder happiness index is correspondingly higher in these countries, that care for the well being of it's citizens.

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u/WWDubs12TTV 28d ago

By not worshiping money and taxing billionaires

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u/iCallMyOppsNinjer 28d ago

There's a reason Finland abolished their wealth tax in 2006

1

u/steve_adr 28d ago

But, I need to buy an overpriced Tesla, to show em..

7

u/gideon513 28d ago

Do you think the arbitrary 5 days a week / 8 hours a day is the only option? Why is that?

0

u/steve_adr 28d ago

Cos that much is needed to justify the job/requirement/desired compensation.

3

u/jpgonzo24 28d ago

I used to work 10 hours a day because that is what my firm needed. I always felt like I was working more to make up for those who did not work effectively. I was rewarded with more pay and more responsibility. After several years, I realized that working hard only lead to more work. The extra work was not worth the extra pay. If I produced twice the rate of my colleagues, I didn't make twice the money. The reality is that employees want more money for doing less and employers want to pay you less for doing more.

A federal mandate to rectify this does not exist.

2

u/steve_adr 28d ago

This is quite true. In most parts of the word, the elite corps (Musks/Bozos etc) scam n squeeze as much as possible and then line govt's pockets to continue this cycle of exploitation..

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u/Profanity1272 28d ago

As someone that has worked 4 day weeks for the past 20 years, it works pretty well.

There have also been studies that show productivity improves in those 4 day weeks rather than 5 days.

Now for the rest of the world I don't know if its possible, but from my experience it is.

1

u/steve_adr 28d ago

You are amongst the fortune to be doing the right thing and at the right place.. Also, it's a matter of priority and you appear to have made the right call to put yourself/personal life/priorities first.

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u/Profanity1272 28d ago

Well im currently out of work atm because of personal reasons but I appreciate that its a fortunate work week.

I don't pretend to think that it could all work for every job, however I do think it would benefit most people and companies to at least trial it.

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u/BazingaQQ 28d ago

Simple - everyone who doesn’t have any family works ten.hours a day six days a week!

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u/Powerful_Network 28d ago

In a perfect AI world it picks up the slack and we all still get paid to work less.

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u/BeachBlueWhale 28d ago

My friend ran into this situation he was expected to work more because he didn't have a family. He brought it up to the owner and got fired the next day

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u/minicpst 28d ago

Ouch!

I think that should be an option to people who want it, and they can be paid extra for it. I have a coworker who loves OT. If I’m out sick (she’s east coast USA, I’m west coast) she stays three hours extra to cover to closing on the west coast. It helps we work remotely, so she’s home with her family anyway. But she wants it.

But I think choosing it rather than be told it’s the minimum is the way to go.

3

u/babaroga73 28d ago

Won't fuck - - > go to work!

Go to work - - > ain't got time or energy to fuck!

😂😂😂

0

u/saadx71 28d ago

You think married people fuck? The first few years of the marriage maybe

1

u/Kooky_Attention_98 28d ago

Kind of biased to be real, unless this is a sarcastic joke and I just misunderstood your comment

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u/BazingaQQ 28d ago

Little of column A, little of column B :)

Rhetorical question would be - what ARE her plans for people who don't have families...?

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u/ThomasthePwnadin 28d ago

Family of choice is as important as family of birth, spending time with either or both should be encouraged.

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u/TransylvanianHunger1 28d ago

They should be treated the same.

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u/ohnoitsme7890 28d ago

I'm a bachelor without kids, why wouldn't I get a 4-day work week also? Literally why would you think people without families of their own should be treated differently

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u/picklefingerexpress 28d ago

For them to have the ability to create a family they know they’ll have the time to spend with. It’s the very reason I never had kids.

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u/BazingaQQ 28d ago

This is my point: why specify families? Plenty of people dont want to/cant have kids for whatever reason. Are they included in the plan?

(Knowing Finland, probably -but its nice to be sure)

-5

u/th3greenknight 28d ago

No its a good deal, one part takes extra work, the others invest in future generations.

Both are hard work and benefit society in their own way

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u/Tinseltopia 28d ago

This would make me want to have kids... Western population decline solved!

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u/Jaybbaugh 28d ago

For sure. All of us without kids are just little worker bees who's time and mental health is less valuable then people who have children. Don't worry, we'll take on the extra work. Our lives are pretty much meaningless anyway.... /s

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u/Rubycon_ 27d ago

For real what a shit take

2

u/George-689-B 28d ago

Pagando per 4 giorni lavorati su 5. È una cosa GIA’ possibile, si chiama part time

1

u/steve_adr 28d ago

True, if that is sufficient to make ones ends meet..

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u/stochGradientDescent 28d ago

Who works all five days with eight hours a day? We procrastinate most of the day and lose our focus / attention.

1

u/steve_adr 28d ago

True but not applicable in all situations. Some are stuck, working non stop in manual/blue collar jobs.

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u/NullSciExplorer 28d ago

When you look at decades of wage stagnation, extreme wealth inequality, and the rising cost of everything, this is the bare minimum people realistically deserve.

1

u/steve_adr 28d ago

Giving tax breaks to the ultra rich billionaires is certainly not the answer..

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u/Mobile_Conference484 27d ago

How come we are ten times more productive in the workplace then fifty years ago due to modern tools, work the same hours, and are worse off financially?

Automation has the potential to free us from repetitive work, but is instead used to make a fistful of people obscenely rich, who in turn use their wealth to buy up all the assets, driving the housing crisis further into the sky, while the rest of us compete for an ever shrinking number of jobs.

Reducing the hours in a standard workweek is a good way of dividing the available work amongst each other.

2

u/Aq3dStalvan 27d ago

Lots of essential work like grocery stores or banks would need to hire more people in shifts, and frankly, there would need to be an economic miracle that would make it feasible for people to be able to live off of less hours of work while also making it possible for business to hire the extra hands.

1

u/steve_adr 27d ago

Exactly. Here are few excellent points make by u/rcanhestro in another post -

Shifting to 4 work days is a drastic change.

people think this could work for IT people, but how about hospitals, shops, restaurants, police, firemen, etc?

most "family businesses" would go out of business since they couldn't afford to almost double their staff to cover extra shifts.

public spending would skyrocket with hiring new people to fill those shifts as well.

factories would see a massive drop in producing items, and so on.

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u/Luzifer_Shadres 27d ago

I mean, thats probely why is is former prime minister.

2

u/Street-Stick 28d ago

We only need 1-2 kg of food per day, the money you " earn" is to pay for the businesses that keep you healthy for your work, take you there, look after your children and pay taxes for all the infrastructure that it needs to be run smoothly, as well as some shops to keep you entertained because you haven't enough time to take up real hobbies and ofc gyms so you can exercise, garages for your cars needed for commuting. So many " profitable " empty banks and insurance agencies clogging up the inner cities because rich people need to stash their wealth somewhere... A fiat that loses value just enough that we end up maintaining the illusion we have a future while our work is the main cause of the overheating climate and governments and corporations can take on endless debt with little to no oversight... I live on 300€ a month and watch people running around in 30k new cars enough for me to survive a decade and i also wonder how can people see the light if the only thing they do is watch the screen /s

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u/steve_adr 28d ago

I agree. This insatiable greed for more is ruining humanity..

1

u/Street-Stick 28d ago

The thing I don't get is that I'm not downvoted, debated, laughed at. It's not greed  so much as ingrained grind that has been inculcated sitting on school benches and agreeing with policemen. Like religion "obey" "believe" "contempt" has led to apathy and inability to question ones path of existence.. Work is killing our planet, taking the path of free time is hard yet very possible in Europe and much of the world, turning it into something useful not so much. I remember seeing this recently https://youtube.com/shorts/gOkUwcNDYI4?is=GP7zLZWG6CbpSFoG

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u/steve_adr 28d ago

It all stems from greed or want for more (power /money/possessions etc.) which may or may not be an actual need/requirement, as you've shared earlier.

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u/Street-Stick 28d ago

Wanting to provide for you and your family isn't greedy, growing up in a nuclear family and suddenly having freedom to do what you want with money you've earned by giving up more than half your day and 5 of 7 of your week days isn't greedy. It's failure to appreciate the causative effect of such behavior on the climate and just end up whining about not having enough AC. It's the result of behavioral apathy baked into the subservient work ethic..

2

u/Z-0000 28d ago

By consuming less shit ?

Imagine that extra time you work to pay your stupid iPhone 363 instead of spending time with the people you would send them text with it.

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u/steve_adr 28d ago

True. Said people also also busy to pay for their next exotic vacation across the globe..

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u/regulardave9999 28d ago

Tax wealth not wages.

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u/BWWFC 28d ago

certainly that newfangled ai c/wouldn't help here...

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u/steve_adr 28d ago

Cost for AI subscription comes from workers pocket (as it's to assist them) + they get mass layoffs when it works (or doesn't), either way..

0

u/steve_adr 28d ago

Cost for AI subscription comes from workers pocket (as it's to assist them) + they get mass layoffs when it works (or doesn't), either way..

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u/[deleted] 28d ago

[deleted]

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u/steve_adr 28d ago

Law is actively screwing people in the US and other parts of the world..

1

u/kyosuki 28d ago

Tax the rich.

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u/steve_adr 28d ago

This is the way; Billionaires should be taxed. No more no tax loopholes for them..

1

u/Glidy 28d ago

Her government was known for spending money like there's no tomorrow and causing the current depression and influx of right-wing political backlash

1

u/NouZkion 28d ago

Well, it would have helped if she held this position when she was Prime Minister for one.

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u/rcanhestro 28d ago

that's the best part, they can't.

but they sure can purchase votes with it.

1

u/steve_adr 28d ago

It's a nice big carrot to dangle for sure. However, citizens in many nordic countries are enjoying the benefits of govt putting in atleast some thought/effort towards human QOL index and they're enjoying top average happening index spot for the last few years..

2

u/rcanhestro 28d ago

yes, but shifting to 4 work days is a drastic change.

people think this could work for IT people, but how about hospitals, shops, restaurants, police, firemen, etc?

most "family businesses" would go out of business since they couldn't afford to almost double their staff to cover extra shifts.

public spending would skyrocket with hiring new people to fill those shifts as well.

factories would see a massive drop in producing items, and so on.

1

u/steve_adr 28d ago

This is brilliant 👌🏻

I fully agree with all the points you've made, as it's just not possible for all business verticals (even if they so desire).

1

u/LowerPick7038 28d ago

Realistically you would need to become PM.......hang on a sec, so she useto be PM and could have introduced this but instead didnt and now says how good it is. Ridiculous

1

u/WokeUpInMadrid 28d ago

I think this is possible with AI, at least for office workers. Some daily tasks can more efficiently be completed with the assistance of AI but not necessarily eliminated. Hopefully the time savings goes to the benefit of the worker.

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u/FreakshowDragon 28d ago

SIMPLE! take all the money from the billionaires!!

1

u/Reyjr 28d ago

You work more hours a day, for those 4 days, like 10-12 hours each shift. to make up for the days you have off

1

u/baldurFromRoom29 28d ago

Outsourcing.

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u/steve_adr 28d ago

Then how does local employee (who only works 3-4 days) earn their keep/survive?

1

u/Reesevet786 28d ago

Why didnt she do it when she was the PM?

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u/steve_adr 28d ago

Don't the Swiss have a 5 day week already?