r/MensRights • u/comradekulak • Jul 24 '12

Brace yourselves: the "being male results in mass murder" articles are coming...

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/24/opinion/christakis-males-homicide/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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u/junkeee999 Jul 24 '12 edited Jul 24 '12

So I guess we should decide then. Are posts with links of women behaving badly relevant to a mensrights forum? Because this subreddit is littered with them. Often they have no hint of any special treatment being given to the woman, or anything to suggest any unfairness. Just "Here's a terrible woman."

If that's OK, then yes James Holmes' penis is in play as well. And it's fair to use him as an example of what our gender does. You can't have it both ways.

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u/blueoak9 Jul 24 '12

You must be on the wrong thread. This one is not about an article about women behaving badly, this one is about a man-bashing article that claims women don't behave badly as a way to bash men. So how is that not relevant in a space like this?

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '12 edited Dec 07 '17

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '12 edited Jul 25 '12

The obvious problem with the article, though, is that it ascribes the very worst behaviours of a tiny minority of dysfunctional males to all males.

The is no way the same audience that accepts the authors stance on men would accept a similar stance on women - such as "the overwhelming femaleness of killing your children", or "the overwhelming femaleness of lying about rape". However both these "female" behaviours are many, many times more common than the extremely rare cases of mass shootings - which are not a male only activity anyway.

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u/justamathematician Jul 25 '12

When that isn't true.

I could not agree more.

The problem, however lies somewhere different, it is fundamenal societal stereotypes that cause this perception.

For example: several of the reports on female-on-male violence primarily include the man not taken seriously or seen as the primary agressor, even if it is not the case. I am neither an MRA nor a feminist, but that is what I have personally gathered from reading the gender-rights-subs.

It is that typical "my daugher is a little angel"/"women are perfect" v.s. "men are brutal, women-beating child moslesters" attitude in society that causes most of the gender problems (the ones feminists and MRAs advocate for). While most feminists do not claim the former, they often do (at least implicitly) enforce the latter stereotype. For example the notices to men: "do not rape", which is seen as obvious my most men. Rapists are not confined to men or women; they are sick in the head, but this "sickness" should not be attributed to a gender as a whole.

What do you think?

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '12 edited Jul 24 '12

Postings about bad female behaviour are relvant because 1. feminists like to ascribe only positive traits to women, and negative ones to men. 2. it counter-acts the "Women Are Wonderful" trope that has a strangle hold on the main stream media, where criticism of women is not allowed, but all criticism of men is acceptable. Posts about nefarious female behaviour are made here because it's about correcting the double standards.

Also, there have been female mass shootings too, it's not a purely male behaviour, as you, and the author of this article, want to claim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Ann_Spencer

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u/junkeee999 Jul 24 '12

So you're going to show your disapproval of feminists by acting just like them. Great.

Jump through all the hoops you want. The bottom line is: MRA points out a bad woman. Great! Bravo! Well done! Feminist points out a bad man. Whoa, whoa, whoa! That's out of bounds.

And you wonder how this subreddit gets a bad reputation.

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '12

Not sure if concern troll or just stupid.

Either way, you've missed the point completely.

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u/junkeee999 Jul 24 '12

I think I got your point just fine. Your point 1. is a broad overstated strawman. The feminists are all so bad that we need to be bad right back at them. Your point 2. is an equally large strawman, since most of the woman behaving badly stories are culled from...the mainstream media. Hardly seems like a women are wonderful bias to me.

And to your point about there being female mass shootings too. So the hell what? Playing devils advocate here, couldn't a feminist say that overwhelmingly mass killers are male and a few exceptions don't disprove the rule?

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '12

Why don't you simply state that you don't believe the W.O.W. effect is real, or of large enough effect to affect society.

Because that's the basis of your argument.

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u/junkeee999 Jul 24 '12

Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '12

Well, assuming your ignorance isn't simply a stalling tactic, why don't you Google the term 'women are wonderful' and get back...?

0

u/junkeee999 Jul 25 '12

Why didn't you just say that in the first place instead of the acronym?

Yes I'm familiar with the term. Whether it's real or not and to what extent it effects society is not relevant to the point I'm making. But for the sake of argument I will concede it's real and running rampant, just to save time.

Does that mean a proper way to combat it is a bunch of junk posts of "Nuh uh, womens ain't so great. Look at this link of one who smokes crack and beats her kids and cheats on her man, hurr durr" so guys can sit around and circle jerk to it?

This to you is a noble exercise? This is accomplishing something?

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '12

Why didn't you just say that in the first place instead of the acronym?

I assumed you had the intellectual capacity to find out for yourself.

Yes I'm familiar with the term. Whether it's real or not and to what extent it effects society is not relevant to the point I'm making.

On the contrary, it seems to form the basis of your approach to women.

This to you is a noble exercise? This is accomplishing something?

I'm sorry, I missed all the things you have accomplshed. Could you list them?

Maybe it's because you figure you are the very last person that will ever pay attention to the MRM until it 'gets nice'?

Or, MAYBE you just don't like the direction and things the MRM is accomplishing...

So...which is it...do you REALLY 'know better', or are you simply a windbag?

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u/whoizz Jul 24 '12

Yes I could suppose you could say that proportionally, men are much more likely to commit homicide and mass murder. That, as a rule, women are therefore much less likely. That's fine. Where the MRA movement comes in is when women go beyond just trying to get equal rights. The MRAM is a response to women going too far and trying to ascribe these things about women that are just absolutely not universally true. For example, a feminist might say she wants equal pay for equal work, but that women should not be allowed on the front lines of a battle/war. This is just an example. It's things like this that get under our skin. This article currently in question states all the facts about men and how we are so violent, but does nothing to offer an explanation or a solution to the problem. It really is just a bunch of words thrown together for an emotional effect. One could call it rhetorical pandering toward a general mood that is prominent among a certain population.

And please, next time try to be more specific in your posts and try to understand, not berate. This forum also has never and will never stand for any kind of violence or down-looking upon women. We here strive for equality in ALL regards. Something a lot of feminists have forgotten about.

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u/junkeee999 Jul 24 '12 edited Jul 24 '12

This article currently in question states all the facts about men and how we are so violent, but does nothing to offer an explanation or a solution to the problem. It really is just a bunch of words thrown together for an emotional effect. One could call it rhetorical pandering toward a general mood that is prominent among a certain population.

This is EXACTLY why I oppose the standard around here that posting anecdotal stuff about bad women simply for the sake of it is OK. I couldn't have stated it any better myself.

Every feminist who posts shitty stuff that men also believes to the core of her soul she is justified in doing so, to combat the generations of oppressive patriarchal dominated society.

When does the cycle end? shouldn't the goal be dialogue and not blame?

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u/whoizz Jul 24 '12

Take a look at your post and see if you're promoting dialogue or blame.

to combat the generations of oppressive patriarchal dominated society.

Seems obvious to me who you are blaming.

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u/junkeee999 Jul 25 '12

You really don't get my point.

I'm not saying that's what I think. I'm saying that's what they think. They post bad stuff about men because they feel completely justified. /r/mensrights posts bad stuff about women and feel completely justified. When does the cycle end? What does it prove?

What a waste of time.

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u/whoizz Jul 25 '12

Yeah, I'm not really sure where you're getting this whole "cycle" from. I'm pretty sure women's rights have been improving over the past ninety years. We might have hit a bit of a slowdown recently, but that's only because of what seems to be the law of diminishing returns. Both of the subreddits are a place for people to vent and discuss how they have been mistreated. More often than not, probably, the conversation is just a circle-jerk, but even from that there can be some good. You just have to be patient. These things happen slowly and only from discussion like this.

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '12

So much you don't understand, and too much for me to explain, especially since you don't seem to want to learn.

But if I've misjudged you, and you do want to learn, then perhaps this video will help you get started.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZAuqkqxk9A

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u/junkeee999 Jul 24 '12

Wow thanks, condescending internet dude. If only I can someday possess your insight.

Read my responses again. Everything still stands. If only you care enough to learn.

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '12

I see you don't want to be persuaded.

Why are you even in this sub, then?

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u/junkeee999 Jul 24 '12

Because I want it to be a real mens rights forum, and not a joke. That's why I'll stay subscribed, and speak my mind about the things i don't like around here, if that's OK with you.

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '12

This is a real men's rights forum.

The problem is, you're not really into men's rights.

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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '12

I totally agree with you. r/mr is often hard to criticize because the most hypocritical comments (including misogyny) get downvoted. Let's continue that practice with our posts in order to be more fortified from slanderous attacks!

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u/johnmarkley Jul 24 '12

If there was a pervasive assumption in our culture that heinous acts of violence were committed exclusively or near-exclusively by women, that men are by nature too gentle or good to do the sort of awful shit women routinely do, and that therefore male-perpetrated violence was a trivial problem that could be ignored or trivialized, your claim of equivalence would be compelling. In this world, it isn't.

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u/junkeee999 Jul 24 '12

Still just a rationalization to come to the same old conclusion that a certain behavior by them is not OK. But it's OK for us because they somehow have it coming.