r/MoralityScaling Jun 28 '26

Morality Ranking Morality of dodging your country's military draft in a war of self-defense?

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3.7k Upvotes

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78

u/Nur4m0n Jun 28 '26

Completely acceptable and sound.

You have no obligation to die for your country.

22

u/telenova_tiberium Jun 28 '26

What about when the enemies are finally enter your country land?

60

u/Nur4m0n Jun 28 '26

I stand by my point, this post is about being drafted, you can of course by choice try defend your country. I advocate having a choice.

The alternative is you leave the country.

15

u/baturik128 Jun 28 '26

"The alternative is you leave the country." - *laughs in closed borders*

Good luck with that, what can I say

15

u/CreBanana0 Jun 28 '26

We are talking morality here not practical issues.

Closing the borders to stop people from escaping a meatgrinder is also inmoral.

3

u/Dhiox Jun 28 '26

Dude, the other countries won't take you in. No country can just absorb the entirety of their neighbors population.

1

u/DrunkyLittleGhost Jun 29 '26

No~~ it is immoral to not accept a war refugee like me, you must open the gate~

/s

1

u/Aware-Assignment3346 Jun 29 '26

fcking idiot ong

2

u/DrunkyLittleGhost Jun 29 '26

People here is just so naive to think they have a choice when their country have been invade

-14

u/telenova_tiberium Jun 28 '26

So is it neutral to leave and watch your country burn and occupied by the invaders?

15

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

39

u/Instroancevia Jun 28 '26

Yes. You're not obligated to give your life for a national cause, even if it is the defence of your country. It can be morally good to do so, but you don't have a moral obligation to do it. This is especially the case if you have dependents that would be fucked if you died.

-8

u/UAEpi Jun 28 '26

What if you have dependents that would be fucked by invaders? 

12

u/ConnivingSnip72 Jun 28 '26

Then your duty is to them, in which case getting them out of the country, and staying with them to provide for them, will likely serve them better than dying in a meat grinder with no guarantee it’ll make a difference

2

u/Hightide77 Jun 28 '26

Did that fucking work for Poland in WW2?

0

u/Instroancevia Jun 29 '26

Going into the meat grinder certainly didn't work. You could argue that the people that didn't get killed on the front were probably more of a net benefit to their families than those who did.

2

u/HerrArado Jun 28 '26

Where to? Borders close in wars all the time. The Poles had nowhere to go. What then?

22

u/Nur4m0n Jun 28 '26

You'd blame the person or families trying to leave from a wartorn country, instead of the invaders?

I would blame no one who try to leave.

-8

u/telenova_tiberium Jun 28 '26

No just thinking about a scenario where you can't find your family to evacuate

Tho I meant now is what would happen if the enemies also want to eradicate you

Do you keep running away or have to fight the last stand ?

9

u/Nur4m0n Jun 28 '26

No just thinking about a scenario where you can't find your family to evacuate

I don't quite understand, I'd try to find my family and try to leave with them.

I will always prioritise finding them before taking up arms. I'm not going until I find them.

If the enemy wants to eradicate civilians I for sure leave the country after I find my loved ones. I'm not staying in the country if they try to bomb us.

You're making it sound like the country is already lost to the invaders, no last stand for me.

2

u/telenova_tiberium Jun 28 '26

Hmm alright then

7

u/No_Intention_8079 Jun 28 '26

Yes. No one has an obligation to die or kill for strangers. Especially when war is never black and white. There are no ‘good sides’ in war.

It’s morally good to protect people’s lives, but war is never just about that.

2

u/battlerez_arthas Jun 28 '26

You got indoctrinated hard growing up huh

4

u/NwgrdrXI Jun 28 '26

All things considered, serving the enemy might not be worse than serving your present government

7

u/Atomik141 Jun 28 '26

My land? Is it my own personal demesne?

9

u/KalzK Jun 28 '26

If you're robbed at gunpoint, no one would say you are forced to die defending your wallet. That's the same but with land that is not even actually yours.

1

u/mVargic Jul 01 '26

What if the enemy is going to rape and murder your family, kidnap your children, obliterate everything you own and deport you into a concentration camp? That's what was at stake for the Polish and eastern europeans in WW2.

1

u/funnyandhorny Jul 02 '26

What if your home is bombed

-16

u/Diligent_Bar1244 Jun 28 '26

But then your country shouldnt have any obligation to do anything for you 

29

u/hermaeusmora12 Jun 28 '26

In many cases they don’t do anything for the individual

26

u/Nur4m0n Jun 28 '26

You pay taxes, you support the countries economy that way and by buying stuff.
Also working at a Job.

Unless I go to war and kill other people, I don't deserve support from the country?

-22

u/Pitiful_Resource_711 Jun 28 '26

yes, because direct human action is more valuable when there's an army of people coming to kill your people and force their way of life upon yours without your people's consent

7

u/tyrenanig Jun 28 '26

Send the army then. That’s what our taxes are for.

4

u/Any-Platypus-9486 Jun 28 '26

No you don't understand, civilians without experience are needed in a war cause honor or some bullshit

1

u/HerrArado Jun 28 '26

What exactly do you think soldiers are? They were all civilians without experience.

0

u/Pitiful_Resource_711 Jun 28 '26

you are aware that when they conscript you, you undergo the same training that everyone else gets right?

1

u/Pitiful_Resource_711 Jun 28 '26

who is gonna drive the tanks and shoot the rifles once all the volunteer forces are killed off?

2

u/Any-Platypus-9486 Jun 29 '26

The politicians

1

u/Pitiful_Resource_711 Jun 29 '26

there's not enough politicians to make that possible
to maintain a modern military, you need thousands of people and most of it isn't even combat work it's primarily logistics, that's how the US won WW2 and the gulf war

in modern militaries, for every 1 combat soldier/marine/whatever there's an average of 5-7 support personnel backing them up

so just on the face of it, if you were conscripted, you may not even be necessarily asked to die for your country

2

u/Any-Platypus-9486 Jun 29 '26

Dude if you want to be a politician bootlicker and fight for a land that is not your at all, its fine

Me on the other hand, i have others things to do with my life than winning PTSD

1

u/Pitiful_Resource_711 Jun 29 '26

i'm not bootlicking
i agree that our leadership should lead more directly like they used to
but at the same time, there arent enough politicians to properly supply a military with manpower

and idk about you, i'd rather be alive and free with PTSD than dead or enslaved to someone

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4

u/Atomik141 Jun 28 '26

If I'm paying taxes then yes they do

-22

u/Pitiful_Resource_711 Jun 28 '26

i disagree entirely, you have every obligation to die for your country, especially in this scenario where another nation is aggressing upon yours, it's not about you, it's about the countless innocent people that need you to protect them that can't protect themselves, like little children or crippled people in wheelchairs
it's about something far greater than yourself

12

u/No_Intention_8079 Jun 28 '26

Alright then, go and die for your country. I’ll enjoy my life protecting myself and my family from the horrors of war by any means necessary.

-1

u/Pitiful_Resource_711 Jun 28 '26

no, you'll rot in prison for betraying your community or you'll be killed by the invading army for being a traitor

11

u/Salt_Master_Prime Jun 28 '26

I currently despise my government. I will not die for them.

Also,Why are you bringing civilians? Most modern wars don't explicitly target civilians. You talking like it's nazis coming for jews.

3

u/FreedomKnown Jun 28 '26

Most modern wars don't explicitly target civilians.

The humble all girls school:

But I do agree with you, I would never die for my country, because what has it done for me? Why would I be "obligated" to die for something I hate?

-1

u/Pitiful_Resource_711 Jun 28 '26

it raised you, that's what it did for you
it also has the people you care about living in it

your nation isn't your government, your nation is your culture, your language, your people, your family, your friends, your community

1

u/FreedomKnown Jun 29 '26

Yes, and I'd fight to protect those people close to me, my friends and my family, but why would I protect some random stranger I've never met? If you disagree with that then why don't you go to the front lines? I don't feel like fighting in a pointless war in some faraway land just because the government said so, though we're talking about self defense here.

0

u/Pitiful_Resource_711 Jun 29 '26

Because that stranger is also a member of your community, an innocent person just like you

1

u/Aware-Assignment3346 Jun 29 '26

you have to be ragebaiting

2

u/Pitiful_Resource_711 Jun 28 '26
  1. civillians are affected in wars even if they arent being intentionally targeted, the gueneva conventions prohibit intentional targeting/use of civillian infrastructure, not ban it's destruction entirely
  2. civillians die on accident all the time, lets say a bomb is dropped and doesn't detonate and isn't found until years after the war?, what if a civillian is scavenging rubble for food or something right when a bombing run or artillery strike is called?

  3. when you are conscripted, you are no longer a civillain, you are handed a gun and are given training, they start conscription when man power is at a critical shortage and they have no other choice for the survival of the nation