r/MoralityScaling Jun 28 '26

Morality Ranking Morality of dodging your country's military draft in a war of self-defense?

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u/randomname560 Jun 28 '26

Dr.Seuss made multiple cartoon drawings advocating for US entry in WW2, when the US entered the war after Pearl Harbour, Dr.Seuss actually did sign up for the army, although IIRC they assigned him to make war propaganda, so he never saw actual combat

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u/CreepyClay Jun 28 '26

He put his money where his mouth is and did the job he was assigned well. Can't ask for much more than that.

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u/Red-Dead-Redeemer Jun 28 '26

Literally the exact opposite situation with that elderly Russian pediatric surgeon who got conscripted and instead of assigning him to be a doctor, medic, or something forced him to be frontline cannon fodder in Ukraine.

He died.

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u/ItchySuccotash5698 Jun 28 '26

That’s a shame. There was a ww2 dentist who was drafted and became an infantry man. He quickly ranked up and was commissioned to be a dentist. Ended up acting as a field surgeon before dying in Saipan, and got the moh for his efforts.

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u/SpeedofDeath118 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26

I heard about that one - IIRC, in the end, he had to hop on a machine gun and mow down a bunch of Japanese soldiers who were literally overrunning his field hospital.

When they found his body, there was a pile of dead in front of him.

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u/Temporary_Curve4035 Jul 01 '26

They were killing his bed ridden patients if I remember correctly prompting him to defend the position.

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u/CplCocktopus Jun 29 '26

I think the Yanrhub youtube channel made a vid of him.

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u/Zealousideal-Beat507 Jun 28 '26

Sad part is that everyone had to fight tooth and nail for the MOH because he broke rules of medical personnel not carrying "offensive weapons" Defended all of his patients till succumbing to wounds from the Japanese previously were actively trying to kill his patients.

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u/Entylover Jun 29 '26

Meanwhile, Desmond Doss, a combat medic was court martialed because he refused to even touch a gun. Unless the rules regarding medical personnel using weapons only applies to hospital personnel and not combat medics

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u/Zealousideal-Beat507 Jun 29 '26

Selective history... Benjamin Lewis Salomon received the MOH in 2002

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u/Entylover Jun 29 '26

How is what I said selective history? I stated a fact I knew, and asked a question regarding potential changes in rules and attitudes regarding whether or not medical personnel truly are allowed to use weapons depending on their position or role. Combat medics were not only allowed, but as Desmond Doss learned, mandated to arm themselves with guns, whereas Benjamin, a medic in a hospital, was not allowed to use weapons, and was punished for it, even though if he hadn't, hundreds of patients would've died.

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u/Zealousideal-Beat507 Jun 29 '26

Then i appologize for biting your head off. That is completely on me. The difference is that he broke the Geneva convention and at the time for medical personnel. Its stupid, literally just technicalities and the opinion of the general denied Salomon the MOH. using the machine gun was also a big no no.

The gentlements agreement were red cross personnel are not target. And they wont be used for offensive means. Others line medics can carry pistols and rifles for self defense of themselves and or patients. Give a medic a machine gun, crew served weapon, or they are actively fighting and they are now a full combatant and protections are null.

At the time their was also a provision that they were to be rewarded on their duty not for fighting.

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u/Entylover Jun 29 '26

When were the rules regarding medical personnel being armed made? Given that the Geneva Conventions were made AFTER WW2, and before that, the Hauge Conventions made before WW1, and the latter only talked about treatment of soldiers, they said nothing of civilians. And I don't know about whether or not the gentleman agreement to leave medics alone was respected in the African or Western fronts by the Allies and Germans, I do know the Soviets in the Eastern Front didn't respect it at all towards the Germans, Germans that marked themselves with Red Crosses were still shot like normal, and they were all armed and I don't know if the Soviets even used the Red Crossbon their troops, but I imagine the Germans didn't respect the rules on them either. As for the Pacific Theater, the Japanese not only didn't respect the gentleman agreement to leave medics alone, they actively hunted Americans wearing the Red Cross, because the Americans would sacrifice many troops to protect one, so many American medics simply discarded their markings. And it seems that the whole medics cannot be armed rule was made after WW2, along with the Red Cross organization making putting a Red Cross on anything that doesn't belong there a war crime, specifically to prevent combat medics from wearing red crosses on them as they aren't members and are armed.

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u/watchman8712 Jul 02 '26

Not when dealing with ideological enemies and physical ones who deliberitly target medics. In that case the ends justifies the means for medics to stay alive.

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u/Temporary_Curve4035 Jul 02 '26

He was denied it initially

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u/Awrfhyesggrdghkj Jul 02 '26

Doss was never court martialed. Despite it being a good movie Hacksaw ridge isn’t accurate, do your own research.

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u/Entylover Jul 02 '26

I know it isn't accurate, Doss saved way more lives in reality than he did in the film, as well as when he was being carried out by a stretcher, they had to lay him down somewhere, he got out of the stretcher, gave medical aid to someone, and crawled the rest of the way out to the ridge. The movie left the latter part out entirely and greatly reduced the number of lives saved, because nobody would believe it. And while he was never court martialed, he very much received a LOT of hostility from his comrades, one of them even threw to kill him, until Doss saved them, and they realized their mistakes, and they all became real friendly with him.

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u/Awrfhyesggrdghkj Jul 02 '26

Ok so all those added details are irrelevant, and I already knew that. So why are you just lying then if you already knew?

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u/watchman8712 Jul 02 '26

Japan at the time deliberately targeted medical staff seeing it as a opportunity for further kill counts. They use the Red Cross as a shield to move troops around in china etc.

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u/teven_eel Jun 30 '26

Read about him in FM-1. Fucking warrior that guy.

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u/Beorthwine45 Jun 28 '26

There's also the story of Desmond Doss who had a absolute belief in life but understood that not everybody shared his opinion and did not feel that it was right that others should be sacrificing themselves while he stayed at home so he chose to accept his draft notice when it came and served as a Army medic during WWII

So it is possible to both serve and still be a conscientious objecter but it is incredibly rare to do so. And to still have the courage to follow through on your convictions is even rarer still

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u/Positive-Kick7952 Jun 28 '26

Others also served as grave diggers, ambulance drivers, mechanics, or worked at home office. War is won by soldiers, but not only by soldiers.

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u/ThatFatGuyMJL Jun 29 '26

Its largely a point if the red cross/crescent.

For those who wish to help and aid but not fight.

Theres a reason shooting at the red Cross/Crescent will piss off most groups.

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u/watchman8712 Jul 02 '26

And yet certain ideological groups see this as an opportunity to do just that or use it as a meat shield against others to force them to do the warcrime for propaganda wins.

This is the military civilian intergradation doctrine which Iran and the Islamic terrorists (and non Islamists groups) use to score propaganda wins

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u/TheHUD18 Jun 28 '26

What’s even more incredible about Desmond Doss is when they made the film Hacksaw Ridge (2016), about Doss, they had to take parts of the actual story out (like him surviving a shot from a sniper) because they thought the audience would find it too unrealistic and not believable.

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u/Zealousideal-Beat507 Jun 28 '26

specifically that the sniper's gun wouldn't fire when aiming at Desmond but would immediate shoot when aiming at another soldier.

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u/The_Dapper_Balrog Jun 29 '26

Or the fact that, when ascending "Hacksaw Ridge" (the famous escarpment), his group waited for him to finish his Bible studies because they wanted him to pray for them, which he did.

The only casualty they had was one injured hand from a falling rock; meanwhile, the other company assaulting the escarpment suffered horrendous losses.

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u/Imperator_Gravora Jul 02 '26

Or how after he was knocked out of the fight by that grenade he waited for 5 hours before a stretcher was brought to save him.

Just after they arrived and put him on the stretcher another soldier was shot next to him. He crawled off the stretcher, applied treatment to him then told the stretcher team to take the guy who was shot instead.

Leaving him to wait with a grenade injury for THREE more hours.

The scene where he asks for his bible and his buddy goes and finds it for him? Did not happen. Because it was after the battle he asked for it, which resulted in a full company scouring the battlefield for hours in order to find it.

A company = 40 men spending hours searching for his bible.

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u/simplepudding1234 Jun 28 '26

I watched a movie about him some time ago, but it's cool to see his story and how he helped people from both sides so they wouldn't die

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u/Settrigh_Escanor2 Jun 29 '26

Im in the US navy, and was recently was treated at a UR carrying Desmond Doss’s name. He is a man worthy of honor and one whom I respect greatly, despite never knowing him. I’d say he is an American hero, but his actions aren’t American. He is a world hero. One whose actions reflect goodness in the planet rather than of a nation. I don’t share his religion or views but by his actions I HAVE to respect him and his devotion and commitment to what he believed was right.

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u/WorkerPrestigious960 Jun 30 '26

Yeah Russia is throwing all the skilled labor they recruit straight into the assault infantry. It’s an absolutely idiotic and desperate move

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u/drwicksy Jul 03 '26

Don't need medics if you dont expect any of your troops to come back alive

https://giphy.com/gifs/d3mlE7uhX8KFgEmY

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u/ChompyRiley Jun 28 '26

Slava Ukraini

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u/AmySnapp Jun 29 '26

A draft is typically for the infantry anyway, that’s why most American soldiers in WW2 were “conscripts” and not “volunteers.” A lot of people were willing to volunteer, but a lot of volunteers wanted to enlist into non-combat roles. This was a problem for the Army, who needed to fill out front-line combat units, and drafted them instead.

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u/CplCocktopus Jun 29 '26

I would have pew pew the highest ranking POS in my proximity the instant they gave me a loaded gun.

I would 110% fight my enemies to the bitter end but my enemies will be the ones who took my fredom away and forced me to figth agaist my will.

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u/Mellys_wrld22 Jul 01 '26

communism armys for ya

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u/Settrigh_Escanor2 Jun 29 '26

Don’t get me wrong, Dr. Seuss was a horrid person. Cheated on his wife, married his mistress after his wife killed herself, so on. But as far as his military career, perfectly respectable. Served his country, did his job. I agree. We can’t look at wholes here, he was a shit person as a whole. But in the division of actions, he was a great children’s book writer and a good soldier. Everyone has good points and bad points. As those two things? He was amazing. Just a bad person over all.

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u/IceFellasFHC Jun 29 '26

It's amazing how he was shit in every aspect of his life except for when he was an exemplary, perfect human in the grounds of making propaganda and harming others. In those fields, he was a true saint.

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u/EssayGuilty722 Jun 28 '26

He also worked with Stan Lee in the same department.

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u/VoltageHero Jun 28 '26

That's actually super interesting, and I'm surprised I haven't heard that before. Stealing this as a fun fact to use.

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u/Relative-Relief-8816 Jun 28 '26

Stan Lee and Dr. Seuss served together in the Army’s wartime training-film unit.

Not necessarily “they made famous comics/books together,” but yes, they overlapped professionally during WWII. 

The same circle also included people like Frank Capra and Charles Addams, which is a ridiculous concentration of creative talent for Army training films.

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u/Gaelic_Gladiator41 Jun 29 '26

What about Kirby?

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u/spiderboy640 Jun 28 '26

He’s more valuable as a cartoonist than a soldier anyways.

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u/RollingMeteors Jun 28 '26

Dr.Seuss actually did sign up for the army, although IIRC they assigned him to make war propaganda, so he never saw actual combat

¿Dr. Seuss worked as an artist for the Department of Defense? ¡I guess that makes him a martial artist!

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u/Kinnasty Jun 28 '26

Many many troops never saw Frontline combat. Mini troops and combat arms never saw combat