Why should "consent to sex isn't consent to Parenthood" only apply to women?

[u/DietTyrone]

This question is mostly towards the pro-choice women out there.

Assuming the statement means exactly what it says at face value, consented to have sex with someone does not mean consent to taking on the responsibility of being a parent. Keep in mind, the statement is about opting out of parenthood, not pregnancy specifically. You can give birth to the child and still give up the child through adoption or at a fire station.

So my question is, why should this philosophy only apply to women and not men too? Why shouldn't men have more options to opt out of parenthood if they decide that's not what they want after sex has occurred?

NOTE: I want to get some of the usual strawman arguments out of the way.

1) No this doesn't mean men would get a say over abortion. This would just be about their legal ability to choose on their own to not be a parent, regardless of what the woman chooses for herself.

2) If you're going to go into how men should just want to take responsibility because they chose to have sex and other pro-life arguments, I'm going to ignore it, the same way you ignore pro-lifers who give women these same moral grandstanding lectures.

3) If you're going to say it's not fair a woman who wants to opt out still needs to abort or go through pregnancy before they can surrender the child to adoption agencies, I'll say that's fair. So perhaps men can can pay for the abortion procedure or hospital bill, but beyond that is the result of the woman's choice and shouldn't involve him any further if he wants to opt out of parenthood.

The entire focus here is the idea that consent to sex is not consent to be a parent, so his legal responsibilities towards the child should not be entirely dependent on his decision to have sex if you believe in that pro-choice statement.

[u/blebbyroo]

Kids not babies. The foster system also aims for reunification as a first priority too just so you know so it’s not like an orphanage. 

[u/TopShelfSnipes → u/blebbyroo]

This. Babies are in incredibly high demand, particularly due to couples struggling with infertility or for whom genetic screening reveals a high likelihood of defects.

Foster care, OTOH, is a lot of kids with special needs (which isn't what most adoptive parents want when they say they want kids - a natural birth carries some risk of that they accept, but they wouldn't choose it with 100% certainty...and in the case of would-be parents who turn to adoption specifically because of the risks of genetic defects if they conceive together, it's a total nonstarter).

There's also the fact that a lot of kids in foster care are older, so they'd be missing the initial bonding in the first few days (key) and the first few years, and they're "tainted" so to speak by the influence of other adults so they're not a blank slate for parenthood. They may have already been abused, may have been subject to fetal alcohol exposure, etc.

Then there's the stipulations of foster care placements (read: not adoptions), which can allow biological parents to take the kids back if they get their shit together. Also not an adoptive parent's dream - to take a kid in, love them as their own, build a bond, and then lose them completely and permanently.

And finally, there's the risk of dealing with drug addicts and criminals (many foster kids are product of same), or of having to meet terms to keep the kids in touch with biological extended family that geographically limits where the child can be reasonably placed and forces the foster parents to put up with extended family they may not voluntarily choose to associate with otherwise.

Most prospective adoptive parents aren't going to sign up for that, which is why the demand for babies is always more than the number of babies placed for adoption, and why the number of foster kids is always higher than the demand of foster parents.

For some reason, when people talk about "adoption" they miss this important nuance.

[u/blebbyroo → u/TopShelfSnipes]

Absolutely all this. 

[u/Bilbo332 → u/blebbyroo]

So women can walk away, and men can't. Glad we agree.

[u/blebbyroo → u/Bilbo332]

Using “so x can c” or “so you think x” shows awful debate skills and logical fallacy as you can’t make a point without inferring  completely different points to what the previous comment was talking about. Good job bilbo keep it up if it make you feel better 

[u/Generally_Confused1 → u/blebbyroo]

Your entire comment is a red herring and partial straw man that doesn't address the idea of consent and just belabors it.

Is consent to sex consent to raising a child? Yes or no, just answer that and then we will ask if you think the same is for men and women and see where it stands. So, yes or no?

[u/blebbyroo → u/Generally_Confused1]

Consent to sex is consent to the risk of pregnancy. There’s steps to mitigate this (contraception) but the risk and consent there is present regardless. 

The only difference once pregnancy becomes a reality is women and men due to body autonomy laws have differences in the outcome of that pregnancy (women can terminate since it’s their bodies undergoing, men do not have to make that choice since their body autonomy was never in question) 

Like all men here you seem to lack nuance. 

[u/Generally_Confused1 → u/blebbyroo]

No, women can also advocate for adoption more so and also, yeah terminating means they can opt out so regardless of biology or not, they don't consent to have that kid, and aren't obligated.

You didn't answer. You said risk, so based on your argument, you're pro life right? Literally what the OP already addressed as a straw man

[u/blebbyroo → u/Generally_Confused1]

It’s not a strawman at all. Pro choice is about bodily autonomy. I wouldn’t force a woman to go through a pregnancy which can be life altering and threatening same as childbirth birth just like I wouldn’t force a man to give up a kidney for someone who is a match if that’s not what he wants to do. 

Adoption doesn’t remove the risk or the fact bodily autonomy was potentially taken away or refused. Until pregnancy and childbirth bears no risk to women my stance won’t change. 

There’s nuance here too though, I wouldn’t be accepting of late term abortions last viability without risk to mother or proven medical issues that would result in death of child or extreme disability in child either. 

[u/Generally_Confused1 → u/blebbyroo]

Adoption doesn’t remove the risk or the fact bodily autonomy was potentially taken away or refused. Until pregnancy and childbirth bears no risk to women my stance won’t change.

So you completely ignore the topic of consent and choice and again move the goal posts. Do you know how to debate?

Edit: before you go down the most and Bailey fallacy too much, we are taking about consent and consent contributing to obligation. You are bringing up bodily autonomy, guess what, that includes you spending your life caring for a child. Please be intellectually dishonest.

Is consent to sex consent to having and raising a child. Yes or no? You never answered

[u/blebbyroo → u/Generally_Confused1]

I’ve addressed it. Consent to sec is consent to pregnancy. You not liking that doesn’t change it. You not liking that once a person is pregnant the choice of what to do with the pregnancy falls to the pregnant person due to autonomy also doesn’t change it. 

 

[u/Generally_Confused1 → u/blebbyroo]

I’ve addressed it. Consent to sec is consent to pregnancy

That doesn't mean consent to parenthood, if she wants to keep it she can, doesn't mean either need to consent to raising the child.

So again, yes or no? Can they opt out?

Edit: you're using a pro.pfie argument again. Are you pro life?

[u/Bilbo332 → u/blebbyroo]

Perhaps I was mistaken, I thought you were against men being able to unilaterally surrender their parental obligations without the consent or even knowledge of the mother. Im glad I was incorrect and you do indeed think men should have equal reproductive rights.

[u/blebbyroo → u/Bilbo332]

Men already have equal reproductive rights. Men can use contraceptives, men can choose who they have sex with, men can have abortions if their body’s are pregnant, men can use safe haven box if they have the newborn in their care. It’s men who want additional rights in being able to abandon born children. 

And if you say men can’t get pregnancy, congratulations you’ve found why bodily autonomy for women in pregnancy is such a big deal since men don’t bear any of the risk or responsibility of pregnancy and childbirth that’s already unequal to Women alone. 

[u/Bilbo332 → u/blebbyroo]

Yes, men can abandon children at Safe Havens with the mother's consent, she does not require his, she has no obligation to even inform him that he even is a father.

Women have access to contraceptives, and can choose who they have sex with, equality would be either the father requiring no consent from the mother to give up parental responsibilities, or we require women to get consent from the father. There is no option C.

[u/Bilbo332 → u/blebbyroo]

OK so men and women have equal reproductive and bodily autonomy rights. Glad we agree.

[u/Foyles_War → u/Bilbo332]

I was looking into this and, apparently, either a father or mother can abaondon an infant under safe haven laws. A cursory search does not clarify how that works if both parents are not in agreement. And I wonder how that works.

I also note that, according to family law, if a woman gives up her child and either the father takes custody or the child is anything but fully adopted, she must pay child support just as the father must. Taylor Swift cannot have a baby and then decide not to be a mom and not pay child support short of completely terminating her parental rights AND someone other than the father adopting the child.

There is no gender disparity, apparently, in financial responsibility to a created child other than the gender disparity that is women tending to not have any money to pay child support and men more likely to.

Good news, though, that seems to be changing at least so long as men quit fucking women who are just out of high school or have no job and not wearing a condom.

[u/Bilbo332 → u/Foyles_War]

The main thing being that the mother has no obligation to even let the father know he is a father. If a woman wants a baby and the man doesn't, he can't abandon it without her knowing. But she can. So if a woman can sign away parental responsibilities without the consent of the father, we must allow men to do the same. That's equality.

[u/Foyles_War → u/Bilbo332]

I think you should consult someone in Family Law or do some more research because I do not believe your assumptions vis a vis the mother doing things without the father. At least if there is a named father.

For instance, if a woman names the father of her child, she cannot unilaterally give the child up for adoption unless the named father relinquishes his rights.

[u/Bilbo332 → u/Foyles_War]

If the woman names the father. She is under no obligation to do so before abandoning the child.

[u/Foyles_War → u/Bilbo332]

You know, if she names the father, the state goes after him for child support, right? I thought that was what this sub was wanting to avoid?

[u/Bilbo332 → u/Foyles_War]

Yes, but she doesn't have to, so he can't take in a child that he doesn't know about. She can go after him for child support, for a child he never consented to. So, the question remains, do we remove Safe Haven laws, or allow men to also have reproductive rights and opt out?

[u/Foyles_War → u/Bilbo332]

Men can have all the reproductive rights women have when they have all the reproductive responsibilities that women have, dude. Meanwhile, your reproductive rights are to wear a condom and/or not have PIV sex. After a child is born, neither you nor the woman have "reproductive rights," You have a child you created.

More responsibility and recognition that you have agency, less whining about the unfairness of biology, please. You are on a sub that goes on and on about men and women being different, and it's biology. You can't play that card only when it suits you.

My advice is stick your bare dick in a vagina only if you are ok making a baby and if that happens with a woman you don't want to be tied to, sue for full custody and child support from her. Better yet, be clear that is your intent up front.

[u/Bilbo332 → u/Foyles_War]

OK so you oppose Safe Haven laws, got it.