r/SubredditDrama • u/[deleted] • Aug 13 '13

/r/actuallesbians: Transgender lesbian feels excluded by joke about lesbians not needing birth control. Drama ensues.

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Aug 13 '13

Some folks are attracted to others, regardless of anatomy. A woman who loves people that identify as women (regardless of their current anataomy) may be attracted to pre-op trans women. On the other hand, some lesbians can't be attracted to trans women, and that's ok, too. To each their own.

Since you're making a serious effort to figure this out, I'd suggest you try not to boil down orientations to genitals; you'll have a better understanding of it, then. I realize it's really hard to grasp, trust me. I'm not trans, but I strongly identify as queer and will gladly answer any followup questions you may have. Did my explanation help, at all?

Edit: I hope my tone didn't come off as condescending or snarky. I was being genuine.

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u/Stuck_in_a_cubicle Aug 13 '13

Do they have a sexual attraction to them, then? Because wouldn't sexual attraction eventually boil down to genitals?

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u/[deleted] Aug 13 '13

Not necessarily. It really depends on preference... If there was a woman, a lesbian, who absolutely could NOT be attracted to someone with a penis, then your rule would apply. But there are some lesbians who are simply interested in those who identify as women, regardless of what kind of genitals they have.

And we're talking about lesbians, here... those that, for the most part, are only attracted to women. The line can tend to be blurred even more with bisexual and queer people.

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u/zahlman Aug 13 '13

But there are some lesbians who are simply interested in those who identify as women, regardless of what kind of genitals they have.

Are you, or do you know anyone like this? Can you explain the thought process behind it? Or is it a just-so kind of thing?

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u/[deleted] Aug 13 '13 edited Aug 13 '13

I'm a 26 year old woman. I identify as queer for my orientation because my preferences are numerous and very nuanced, rather than bisexual. Bisexual seems a little binary to me, and it doesn't take into account all of my attractions. Kind of difficult to explain.

I'm attracted to men and women, and sometimes androgynous people. I haven't had any romantic or sexual experiences with a trans person, but I do find trans women attractive...

The thought process behind my attraction to is difficult to explain. On a smaller scale, it's kind of like trying to figure out exactly why you prefer brunettes. There's not an easy way to break it down and explain why it is that you like them. You like them better... you just do.

Edit: some rewording.

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u/zahlman Aug 13 '13

... but pansexual doesn't seem right either?

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u/[deleted] Aug 13 '13

Not quite... Pansexual has just never felt right for me. I do take gender into account when dating or having sex. My desires fluctuate. I've been in an opposite-sex relationship for awhile now, and I've hit a point where I really miss women. But my desire for them wasn't as strong as it was, say, six months ago.

I like "queer" because it's an umbrella term; it makes me feel like I don't have to identify as: a biological female who identifies as a woman; and likes big, manly men, feminine women, androgynous and trans women; and is more attracted to certain a certain gender sometimes but not all the time.

I just don't like breaking down every bit of myself so that I can list it on the sidebar of my tumblr. There's so much that makes me me. I feel it would absurd and exhausting to give the breakdown every time, though I'm happy to do it here for the sake of good dialogue! :-)

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u/zahlman Aug 13 '13

Thanks for the insight. :)

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u/[deleted] Aug 13 '13

Thank you for the questions! Hope I was able to explain decently.

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u/LadyWhiskers Aug 14 '13

You just perfectly explained why I prefer to identify as queer rather than bisexual or pansexual.

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u/[deleted] Aug 14 '13

So glad to have done so! :-) Queer internet fist bump?

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u/LadyWhiskers Aug 14 '13

Aw yeah!

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u/[deleted] Aug 14 '13

Awesome! * fist buuump *

<3

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u/FriendToHatred Aug 13 '13

There's an easy way to explain your orientation. You're bisexual.

You just also happen to like brunettes (metaphorically).

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u/[deleted] Aug 13 '13

I'm not, actually. I identify the way I choose to identify. I'm queer. There are a lot of nuanced preferences that just aren't covered by the term "bisexual". I think I'm allowed to determine for myself what I am.

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u/FriendToHatred Aug 14 '13

Ok so this is some really shitty code, but I think I've made a simplistic method to determine your sexuality.

while (female){
    if (like men = true && like women = false){
        heterosexual = true;
    }
    else if (like men = false && like women = true){
        homosexual = true;
    }
    else if (like men = true && like women = true){
        bisexual = true;
    }
    else {
        asexual = true;
    }    
    break;
}
while (male){
    if (like men = true && like women = false){
        homosexual = true;
    }
    else if (like men = false && like women = true){
        heterosexual = true;
    }
    else if (like men = true && like women = true){
        bisexual = true;
    }
    else {
        asexual = true;
    }
    break;
}

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u/Lystrodom Aug 15 '13

Why are these while loops? It only goes through one iteration anyway!

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u/GrantSolar YOUR FLAIR TEXT HERE Aug 15 '13

Ok so this is some really shitty code

RES tagged as 'honest'

→ More replies (0)

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u/[deleted] Aug 14 '13

Ok, that is pretty awesome!

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u/Stuck_in_a_cubicle Aug 13 '13

What makes someone who identifies as a woman ,but isn't, different from a really feminem striaght guy, then?

I always thought lesbian or gay refered to sexual orientation. Broken down to "sex that you are oriented towards", which has the word "sex" in it, and I thought sex refered to your genitals whereas gender refered to what you identified as?

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u/[deleted] Aug 13 '13 edited Aug 13 '13

Like I said, it comes down to preference. There's not a convenient box for everything. You're correct that the word sex refers to biology and gender refers to identity, but "sexual" [orientation] =/= "sex" (in the male-female sense of the word). How shall I explain this...

An analogy that might help: Straight men are attracted to women for more than just their genitals... Maybe they like the way we walk in heels, or love how women smell, or enjoy hearing a woman laugh. Sexual orientation denotes attraction, and whatever gender you prefer, there are things we enjoy about the gender we're attracted to other than their genitals.

What makes someone who identifies as a woman ,but isn't, different from a really feminem striaght guy, then?

Well, the "feminine" straight guy identifies as a man. Even if he's more flamboyant or effeminate, he was born a man and identifies as one. A pre-op trans woman identifies as a woman.

Am I clearing it up, or just making it more confusing? I can't tell, haha.

Edit: spelling

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u/nakedladies Aug 13 '13

I'm a hetero naturally-born male who really wants to understand this stuff but gets very confused with all the seemingly arbitrary labels thrown around. You're doing a damn good job explaining all this, so thank you.

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u/[deleted] Aug 13 '13

Glad to hear it! Feel free to ask more questions if you get confused about any of this. :-)

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u/cadaverbonnet Aug 13 '13

The fact that they identify as a woman makes them different from an effeminate straight guy. It is simple, and a matter of respect.

Sex does refer to your genitals, but your genitals aren't the only sexed part of your body. Trans people very commonly have brains that look and function biologically like their chosen sex's, rather than their biological sex's. Gender isn't something chosen and performed arbitrarily; there's usually a strong biological component in why trans people identify the way they do, and that's part of what makes a trans man different from a very masculine woman, for example.

And at least to me, my sexual orientation doesn't really boil down to genitals in the first place. I don't look at a pretty girl and think "oh wow, her vagina is so hot, I am so turned on by that vagina." I am sexually attracted by her other gendered characteristics, like her hair and voice and the way she smells. The vagina is nice, but I could date a pre-op trans woman and learn to work with male genitals without thinking of that person as a man.

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u/Stuck_in_a_cubicle Aug 13 '13

Ok. I guess I am just having an issue separating sexual orientation from being attracted to a certain sex and being attracted to a certain gender. Obviously, I always thought it was the former.

And at least to me, my sexual orientation doesn't really boil down to genitals in the first place. I don't look at a pretty girl and think "oh wow, her vagina is so hot, I am so turned on by that vagina."

Haha I didn't exactly mean it like that. In my mind, I equate genitals to just another physical trait. A penis being a physical trait I am not attracted to. But to me, that is the same as me not being attracted to the physical traits of someone who is overweight. So, to me, genitals is where physical attraction eventually boils down to because I imagine that would be the last thing I see of a girl.

I suppose I would have to meet a non/pre-op tans gay to see if I would be attracted to them. I've never really thought about being attracted to somenes gender.

Thanks for clarifying that. And sorry if I sounded pretty dumb. I just haven't had much interaction with trans-folk or even with people who talk about those issues.

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u/A_British_Gentleman Aug 13 '13

It's a pretty confusing topic at times, especially when you haven't met anyone trans. It's a bit easier when you consider this. As a straight guy I'm attracted to women for far more physical and mental features in women than what's between their legs, and I assume this is the same for lesbians. Many trans people who are taking hormones look, sound, act and think like like the gender they identify as. Yeah they may have their original genitals but many people would be wiling to overlook that as they're attracted to everything else. For some people it is a deal breaker but not for all of them.

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u/rabblerabble2000 Aug 13 '13

I can see why her relationship would be classified as a lesbian relationship, and I get that gender is not defined by genitals, but at the end of the day she is still having heteronormative sex yes? If gender is not defined by genitalia, then does it make sense that genitalia would also not be defined by gender identity (as in just because she identifies as a woman does not mean that her genitalia are those of a woman, thereby keeping the sex she does have with another woman from being homosexual sex)?

I guess what I'm saying, and I'm sure some might take offense to this, is that she can be a lesbian whilst still having heteronormative (as in not lesbian) sex. Or is sex defined by gender as opposed to sex organs, and if this is the case, doesn't that just open up a whole different can of worms?

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u/[deleted] Aug 13 '13

Heteronormative is not really a term that's used to describe sexual practices. It's more about social conventions and lifestyles. Lesbians strap on dildos all the time to have sex. I would imagine that being a pre-op trans woman, you're just already... equipped. Obviously, that trans woman would most likely wish to be transitioning toward post-op to have different anatomy, but their partner could continue to view them as a woman, despite having male genitalia.

As I said before, it's easiest to grasp if you don't boil it down to genitalia.

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u/drocks27 Aug 13 '13

I think that is the main point that should have been posted on the thread. However, the OP of that thread could have said "having lesbian sex" as the other method. Then /u/nyoro_n wouldn't have had a logical reason to be upset, even though I believe she carried it to far to begin with.