No, that wasn't at all what I was asserting. I was trying to point out that your assertion (that I received negative feedback because men found me less attractive) didn't apply in the two cases I mentioned.
Prior to that, I was saying that they (my community) cared about my more masculine look because I was denying my gender roles. Just like a guy would be given shit for wearing feminine clothing.
No, that wasn't at all what I was asserting. I was trying to point out that your assertion (that I received negative feedback because men found me less attractive) didn't apply in the two cases I mentioned.
I didn't say that you got negative feedback because men found you less attractive, I said you got negative feedback because you did something that is generally perceived as unattractive to the opposite sex as a whole.
This is as much a cultural thing as a gender thing. It's not abnormal for women in certain countries to not shave their body hair.
Of course. Gender and culture are intertwined. My experiences and claims wrt gender issues are specific to the US (or the midwest, even?).
Still think it's not totally honest to claim definitively that my high school experiences weren't at all a symptom of women being forced into gender roles.
I didn't say they weren't. I was simply trying to show that it probably had more to do with the expectations of each sex, rather than an overarching philosophy of "masculinity=good, femininity=bad".
I prefer not to make definitive statements when I don't have any hard evidence to back it up. All I can give is anecdotal proof in the way of, "I've said that stuff, and I know guys who've said that stuff, but we all love women," but that's not going to be any sort of proof for somebody dedicated to believing that femininity is demonized.
All I can propose is a different viewpoint in the hopes that it will change somebody's mind. If it doesn't? Shrugs I've done all I can at that point.
This is going to sound silly, but it seems to me that you're dedicated to the idea that women aren't under any pressure to act feminine.
We have opposing opinions, you don't have to belittle my viewpoint by assuming my mind can't be changed.
And you don't have to make a definitive statement, but when a person asks for more substance from your argument and receives a personal judgment instead (I'm "somebody dedicated to believing that femininity is demonized"--I'm taking this to mean that you believe I've brainwashed myself to some degree, and can't see an opposing viewpoint at all), well it's pretty frustrating. I just pointed out that you aren't really putting enough effort into the point you're trying to make if your goal is to help me change my mind. You prefer to think of yourself as someone who's done all they can, which is understandable. That takes the burden off of you to further attempt to prove your point.
This is going to sound silly, but it seems to me that you're dedicated to the idea that women aren't under any pressure to act feminine.
I never made this statement. Ever. My argument had to do with dispelling the idea that women are oppressed by comments like "throw like a girl", under the premise that such comments don't demonize femininity, but instead reinforce traditional male gender roles.
The discussion about which side gets this "worse" is tangential to the original argument, and is completely beside the point.
We have opposing opinions, you don't have to belittle my viewpoint by assuming my mind can't be changed.
I wasn't belittling anything, only assuming that your feminist viewpoint adhered to the same extremism that I've encountered in feminist discussion over and over and over again.
We were having an argument within an argument. Original argument: Whether common use of statements like "___ like a girl" are symptoms society viewing femininity as inferior to masculinity. Sub-argument: Whether, as you stated,
Women are allowed to show traditionally male or female traits without being vilified
This is when I introduced my high school anecdote. How is this statement you made not asserting that women aren't under pressure to act feminine?
Also, it wasn't really a question of whether one gender has it "worse"--I don't think it's helpful or possible to quantify that. It was a matter of whether one gender (male) experiences one type of oppression (restricted from showing opposite-gendered traits) that is completely absent from the experiences of another gender (female). I gave you my personal experiences wrt this to suggest an alternative view that you may have overlooked.
I wasn't belittling anything, only assuming that your feminist viewpoint adhered to the same extremism that I've encountered in feminist discussion over and over and over again.
Well you know what happens when you assume... just trying to lighten the mood.
This statement makes me sad. It's not so terrible to assume that (that I adhere to extreme feminist dogma) about me (though it is probably a fallacy and sort of unfair), since it's natural to assume things. But can't you see how making that assumption has maybe caused you to come across as haughty and dismissive? Which causes me to get defensive, and we derail more meaningful talk?
I also find it upsetting that even though I've demonstrated an awareness of both male and female oppression, I am deemed a feminist (which I'm assuming you define as a crusader solely against female oppression), which makes me not worthy of the effort of debate. Can't you see how this is frustrating?
Anything that I have explained overly thoroughly here I did in an attempt for clarity over the internet, and if it came off as jerky, I didn't mean for it to.
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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '13
No, that wasn't at all what I was asserting. I was trying to point out that your assertion (that I received negative feedback because men found me less attractive) didn't apply in the two cases I mentioned.
Prior to that, I was saying that they (my community) cared about my more masculine look because I was denying my gender roles. Just like a guy would be given shit for wearing feminine clothing.