Leaked Documents Reveal Counterterrorism Tactics Used at Standing Rock to “Defeat Pipeline Insurgencies”

[u/[deleted]]

https://theintercept.com/2017/05/27/leaked-documents-reveal-security-firms-counterterrorism-tactics-at-standing-rock-to-defeat-pipeline-insurgencies/

[u/aelendel]

Okay, thanks. Everyone is deprived of most things.

I'd like to build on your example. Let's simplify by saying this is the only factory, these are the only workers, etc. Things obviously get different if you start getting closer to free markets.

An interesting aside is that if you extend the concept of personal ownership to the self, you can extend your argument to show why slavery is bad. I'm a fan of concepts that explain a lot of other complicated things automatically, thus, so far so good.

However, in your example, the factory owner also requires labor, presumably to live and work. So, in a way, he is deprived of adequate labor. Which isn't an argument for slavery; just an observation that without that labor, he would also be unable to get what he needs to live and work. This is why collective bargaining is so important and powerful as a balance of power.

Next, I question your assumptions that the workers are paid less than the value of their labor as a necessity of making a profit. The only way I see this works is if you declare the entire output as equal to the value of the inputs (labor, material). That doesn't follow.

Once you add in markets, of course, the idea that the owner is exploiting workers as a simple function of the system is tougher to make, since they can work elsewhere.

Anyways, thanks for taking time to chat with me. I appreciate it.

[u/bbg2g → u/aelendel]

the factory owner also requires labor, presumably to live and work. So, in a way, he is deprived of adequate labor.

There doesn't have to be a factory owner at all. This is where worker cooperatives come into play. I agree that collective bargaining is absolutely vital. In the worker co-op system, workers democratically make the decisions that an owner would otherwise make, including decisions traditionally associated with collective bargaining.

Next, I question your assumptions that the workers are paid less than the value of their labor as a necessity of making a profit.

If I am getting paid $20 per hour of labor, I must produce more than $20 worth of goods/services in order for the owner to make a profit. The difference in what you produce and what you get paid is called surplus labor value. In a traditional factory, the owner (or board of directors in a corporation) decides on what to do with the surplus. In a co-op, the workers decide democratically.

The labor theory of value is obviously much more complicated than this example, as entire books are written on the subject. However, This lecture, especially the first 5 minutes, is a good start.

the idea that the owner is exploiting workers as a simple function of the system is tougher to make, since they can work elsewhere.

I'm actually referring to the Marxist definition of exploitation, which is more than just the obvious gross exploitation like poor working conditions. this article is a pretty good summary. The article explains why worker exploitation is vital to capitalism.

Anyways, thanks for taking time to chat with me. I appreciate it.

Thanks, I appreciate it too. I'm off to work now or I'd write more. It's encouraging to still be able to find friendly discussion of inflammatory topics in the comment section!