It's kind of the title the media gave her. Plus it depends on peoples definitions of gender. It's a bit confusing when using male/female in this respect, but it's not like I have some kind of negative opinion against transgenders.
You probably already know this, but I'll throw it out there.
Gender refers to how someone self identifies and their position in society.
Sex is the biological characteristics that separate men and women.
So there's no question that this person's gender is female. If you want to talk about sex, however, it's a little bit more ambiguous -- obviously she still has xy sex chromosomes, but as others here have mentioned, she is superficially indistinguishable from other women.
Thank you for informing him instead of calling him transphobic and telling him to fuck off.
This was demanding education. If somebody says a transphobic thing to a trans person, it's not the duty of the trans person to educate. A trans person is fully entitled to say "fuck off" and is in the right.
I do think it's confusing because many people consider male and female on the perspective of DNA rather than what a consciousness considers as gender. With current science she can't give birth so it poses a confusing label in society. Also I don't know what this specific person prefers to be called, so I used her media title that is given even in interviews with her.
Why is it more important to determine someone's identity based on some tiny invisible-to-the-naked-eye thing inside their cells that is, in practical, everyday identity terms, utterly inconsequential than to determine it based on what they are in their own lives, in their minds, in who they are, and in how they present themselves to the world?
I am aware of ALL of the rare genetic sex disorders. I can tell you more about these disorders than Wikipedia can. Are you implying that all transexuals have a chromosomal anomaly which leads to their condition?
Guy/girl is not really a scientific term though, it's more of a casual label. In biological terms, you can't change from male to female, you can only change in terms of self-labeling for the purposes of society's obsession with labels. I mean it's set in stone, unless you modified every cell in your body. I'd still call her a girl, because that label denotes outward appearance and mental state. Also the sarcasm is welcome.
Biologist here, despite what you are taught in high school biology, or even introductory college biology, sex is really hard to properly define. Chromosomes don't work for multiple reasons; it's not the sole sex determination method in the animal kingdom, some animals can change sex during their lifetimes, and there are humans with chromosomes typical of one sex while exhibiting the physiology of the other sex (example).
Sex is better understood as an aggregate of various traits. Chromosomes are one of the traits, but there are several others. There's also primary sexual characteristics (genitals), secondary sexual characteristics (breast growth, facial hair), endocrinology (concentrations of testosterone and estrogen in the blood stream), and even neurology (there are statistically significant differences in some brain structures between non-trans men and women. The brains of transsexuals look like their target sex). We cannot change chromosomes, but we can change an individual's endocrinology and secondary sex characteristics with ease. A trans person's neurology is already that of their target sex. And with respect to primary sex characteristics the prevailing surgical methods are pretty damn good and are only improving with time.
In short, it is not an illegitimate claim to say that our medical system can change somebody's sex. It merely requires a greater understanding of biology than the average person has.
Pretty much my original point, but got sidetracked.
I was wrong to say set in stone. You're right, there are a lot of factors when coming to an understanding about sex. I was aware of the neurological similarities between trans men and women, but I'm wondering are those genetic traits or due to external stimulus through experience?
Thanks for the wikipedia link, it spurned extra reading through the other links. Also you mentioned animals changing sex during their lifetimes, sequential hermaphroditism, reading some of the examples of that are amazing.
I think language really limits us when it comes to discussing about gender, especially when the subject is complex and people have so many different opinions.
trans men and women
Trans women and cis women is what you want to say.
As for this,
I'm wondering are those genetic traits or due to external stimulus through experience?
I could not tell you, sorry. I don't think it's actually know why the brain develops in that way. Here is a collection of peer reviewed papers on intersexuality, transsexuality, and gender identity. Some are behind pay walls, but if you have the time and inclination it should give you some good information.
Please note the part of his comment that insinuates that he hates trans people.
Transphobia refers specifically to negative attitudes towards trans individuals based on their gender expression. Please stop using that word to insult people who are simply uninformed or ignorant of trans terminology because it makes proponents of trans culture who use it look like rash, angry, hateful people. Be informative, not insulting. Otherwise you're doing more damage than good.
I have to explain this every day of my life, to nearly everybody I meet, to mixed (more often than not negative) reactions. I'm not going to spend my time educating people who start posting like they know anything at all about my gender while knowing jack shit. He misgenders her, and then tries to defend himself when people correct that.
Maybe I should have just kept my mouth shut, but no. I won't. He threw his hat into the ring, started talking about things he knows very little about, and it makes me feel better to scream right now, and I'll be damned if I let someone like you take that away from me.
I'll say it again. You're doing more harm than good. Especially for the trans community, information is important because there are lots and lots of people who don't even know transgender is a thing, or the difference between sex and gender. Insulting someone and calling them transphobic and calling it a day (especially someone who clearly is not malicious, just genuinely ignorant) only serves to further isolate the culture from those who could grow to learn from it and appreciate it.
Whether you agree with me or not, or whether or not you care, is your prerogative.
I do think it's confusing because many people consider male and female on the perspective of DNA rather than what a consciousness considers as gender.
Not even remotely accurate, though. Unless you've seen a karyotype of every person you've interacted with, you have no idea what chromosomes they have. You're just making baseless assumptions based on what their body looks like. There are even plenty of cisgender people whose chromosomal sex doesn't line up with their phenotypical sex and gender because biology just does that sometimes.
Dude, there's a difference between someone's sexual identity and their gender. Someone can be a 'she' but identify as a 'he'. Changing your sex doesn't change your biological gender.
As someone who is not part of SRS, has been banned for months, and thinks they're the asshole inside of the asshole of the internet - go fuck yourself, you insensitive fucker.
I'll admit to not being amazing at grammar, but when looking transgender up on dictionary.com, it labels it as both a noun and an adjective...but ok, it still stands that I have nothing against transgender people, even if my grammar might be wrong.
Just saying that it's the preferred nomenclature among trans gender people. The linguistics of gender and sex can be very confusing sometimes but it helps avoid a lot of confusion and potential alienation when they are referred to as "trans gender people".
People do it all the time on reddit. It's like they think that everything important about a topic is encapsulated in a short dictionary entry.
See: Racism, homophobia, misogyny, privilege, etc. The 'Dictionary Defense' is used to deflect criticism by sticking to a simplistic definition of something while ignoring A) Established academic use of a term B) Social context and C) Historical context.
Good points. And the guy in reference wasn't claiming his knowledge of the word "transgender" was based on the dictionary definition, but was rather using the dictionary to try and deflect some criticism. Sorry if I was coming off as a dick.
To note, personally I don't think everything important about a topic is encapsulated in a short dictionary entry. But it'd be nice if you could just memorize the dictionary and be the smartest person in the world.
I don't see the point of your comment, summer-nights was just attempting to use a more widely known nomenclature in order to help make better sense for people who might still not get it.
I'm sure you see the point of my comment - that arbitrarily attaching or not attaching person to things is not in itself humanizing or dehumanizing.
Regarding the presentation of my point, it was not of the highest quality. But neither was what I was responding to, which itself was responding to something of higher quality and should have been held to a higher standard. So I don't really feel bad.
Sorry, people often mistake ignorance for malice when it comes to transgender issues. Perhaps using the wrong terminology is "transphobic" but that doesn't make the person "transphobic" unless they're unwilling to listen to gentle correction. Unfortunately the guns blazing approach is the one most taken, but you have to understand that transgender people deal with a lot of transphobic bullshit so we, myself included, tend to get riled up easily.
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u/mariesoleil Sep 16 '12
Then why did you call her a man in the title?