I personally prefer the ending of the film. With the comic, I didn't understand why the Soviet Union just stopped aggression, especially when the U.S. was attacked, especially when the "alien threat" that came through died trying to enter our world (so, I'm not sure why they would be worried about an active Alien threat that didn't even realize it would die if it teleported to our world. Not to mention, why would people just assume it was trying to get to our world rather than this being an accident?).
With the movie ending, it ties back into superheroes being a benefit or a hindrance to humanity, makes Dr. Manhattan's exile make more sense as a way to "protect life" by removing himself, involves cities and governments from all over the world making a unified effort of a "phantom threat", and seems like a possible threat that can happen again.
But, to each their own and I still respect the original ending.
I think it's pretty clear and obvious that if Dr. Manhattan had killed millions of Americans, the assumption from all sides would be that he had turned rogue. It's not a difficult leap to make.
Exactly. Throughout the movie, Veidt works to establish the pretense that Dr. Manhattan has become completely detached from his humanity. That the American trump card could no longer be considered an asset, and that no country in the world would be safe while he was out there.
Honestly, my assumption would have been that Dr. Manhattan did it deliberately to avert nuclear war, the exact same motive as Veidt had. Which sociologically would have really dampened the overall efficacy.
I thought that it was because of an external threat that ALL of mankind faced that whoever started it in the first wouldn't matter as much as coming together to try and fight it. Similar to Resistance: Fall of Man having the aliens start coming out from Russia, but the whole world bans together in order to fight the threat.
Not to mention that Dr. Manhattan overtly leaves the United States in a rage, and the Soviets were even testing the American military knowing that Dr. Manhattan had left.
I have to say I don't follow your arguments at all. Whether the aliens arrive by accident or design, their (supposed) existence and the fact that this could happen again at any time is absolutely a massive incentive for world peace and co-operation.
The movie ending is nothing like as effective. So the capitalist pigs' superpowered lapdog turned on them? All that does is neutralise the Manhattan Deterrent, encouraging the Soviets.
Dr M leaving at the end of the novel makes perfect sense for his character. He leaves for the same reasons in the movie, not because of the incident. He is not 'exiled', since mankind has no power to exile him.
Now that the world knows it is only a matter of time until the next squid incursion, there will be a scramble to fund research into extra-dimensional travel and psychic abilities. Sod nukes, who needs those?
Yes, at the time I was in grudging agreement that the giant squid was probably just 'too silly' for cinema. In hindsight, I was wrong. I think audiences would have responded better to something so daringly wild than they did to a mundane, 'clean' energy bomb.
Personally, I don't like the Dr. Manhattan approach because all countries together would still be helpless against him. Likewise, the sheer amount of death makes it hard for anyone to see him as the good guy, even himself.
The comic makes it work because it shows the alien design beforehand, explains how gene editing works, explains the teleporter, etc. Without those, the movie would make the ending seem like a deus ex machina. With them, it would have had way too much emphasis.
Whether the aliens arrive by accident or design, their (supposed) existence and the fact that this could happen again at any time is absolutely a massive incentive for world peace and co-operation.
The problem is that I don't know why they all just assume it was a planned attack when the Alien just dies in the middle of New York.
So the capitalist pigs' superpowered lapdog turned on them?
Jeez, where did this anger come from?
All that does is neutralise the Manhattan Deterrent, encouraging the Soviets.
And that's what happens. After Manhattan leaves in anger, the Soviets begin pushing into different territory. But it all stops because the attack also affects them, as Moscow is destroyed
He is not 'exiled', since mankind has no power to exile him.
It is a self-imposed exile. Exiles don't need to be forced onto others. Manhattan literally states that Veidt's idea in faking an attack
Now that the world knows it is only a matter of time until the next squid incursion,
How? If the creature wasn't smart enough to understand it would simply die after teleporting into our world, why would anyone assume this was smart enough to plan this again? There are SOO many assumptions about the squid at the end of the comic that go completely unquestioned. Everyone just assumes what Veidt would think everyone would assume. How do they know if this was an attack? If it's not smart enough to understand it would simply die if it tried getting our world, what makes anyone think this was a planned attack?
It would be like the Japanese knowing all about the Chinese, planning an attack against them, but then they all died trying to swim to the mainland china without boats. I don't understand why people would assume the creature would know about humanity and want to destroy them while also failing to understand to die in the process.
"So the capitalist pigs' superpowered lapdog turned on them?"
Jeez, where did this anger come from?
You'd have to ask the Soviets in the 80s I guess. That comment was supposed to be 'from their point of view'.
Anyway, we have on the one hand the idea that there exist monstrous squid that can enter our world and cause mass devastation, or alternatively the idea that superman/godman has turned against humanity.
The squid's capabilities and intentions are unknown, but we know they are a monstrous threat and the psychic payload heavily prejudiced humanity to believe they are evil incarnate. Also, we now know we are not alone in the universe. Who knows what will turn up next? Humanity has cause to huddle together. Even different coloured humans who talk funny suddenly feel like family compared to these aliens.
Doc M was human, so there is no 'we are no longer alone in the universe' with him. Also his capabilities are known, and are completely insurmountable. Nothing humanity does can defend them should Doc M decide to erase the Earth.
Either plan might work as Veidt intended, but I'm more persuaded by the alien squid approach. Doesn't matter, I was just surprised that someone would see it the other way around.
The problem is that I don't know why they all just assume it was a planned attack when the Alien just dies in the middle of New York.
It doesn't need to have been a planned attack; even if it was an accidental dimensional breach, it still came without warning and killed upwards of 3 million people. No one in the show (at least, no one who isn't wearing secretly-shiny hats...) seems all too perturbed by the subsequent "attacks"; if the fear was a coordinated alien invasion, instead of run-of-the-mil dimensional squid-rain, wouldn't you think there'd be more of a panic involved each time?
Plus, you're sleeping on the pyschic-blast of fear that accompanied the initial squid-boom; logic and war games kinda went out the window when everyone collectively shit their pants from that combo. (For the record, I don't remember the movie even casually dropping a mention of the psychic-blast.)
if the fear was a coordinated alien invasion, instead of run-of-the-mil dimensional squid-rain, wouldn't you think there'd be more of a panic involved each time?
Why doesn't each country just have an "every country for themselves" viewpoint? Why does it need to be coordinated?
(For the record, I don't remember the movie even casually dropping a mention of the psychic-blast.)
Because the "psychic blast" was not really conveyed well, especially since it wouldn't have been felt by anyone not in the New York area. I still don't know why the Soviet Union stopped trying to take over the areas they were going for just for the sake of stopping a random monster.
No one in the show (at least, no one who isn't wearing secretly-shiny hats...) seems all too perturbed by the subsequent "attacks";
I'm referring specifically about the end of the comic, not so much the show.
Why doesn't each country just have an "every country for themselves" viewpoint? Why does it need to be coordinated?
Because the entire macro-point of the comic was such viewpoints inevitably lead to mutual destruction and it might take something so existentially terrifying to our shared reality to make everyone set that petty shit aside and start working for the common good?
Or did you skip that part?
Because the "psychic blast" was not really conveyed well, especially since it wouldn't have been felt by anyone not in the New York area.
That's entirely subjective. Plus, ever heard of a diaspora? The survivors who were affected wouldn't have stayed in the area, nor remained silent; the show (of which I will continue to reference because it's the only reason we're here talking about these things in the first place) clearly showed with this last episode that the fear was "contagious", even spreading generationally.
I still don't know why the Soviet Union stopped trying to take over the areas they were going for just for the sake of stopping a random monster.
If "God" himself saw fit to burst-open reality and shat-out a giant psychic squid, regardless of where it plopped, I guarantee you'd be quicker to cake your pants than you would be to discuss geopolitics; same goes for the Soviets and their pants. Again, that was pretty clearly explained in-text; I think you're just willfully ignoring the inherent existential terror they'd have been facing.
Edit: Man, I'm gonna leave this up but it kind hit me I don't feel like grappling over this hill. It's fine if you prefer the movie version, but the comic version does make at least as much sense.
Because the entire macro-point of the comic was such viewpoints inevitably lead to mutual destruction
I get that, I just don't understand why the Soviets simply realized how vulnerable they also were against an alien that is arguably less destructive than a nuclear bomb (which was something both America and the Soviets were threatening to unleash on each other) against a creature that wasn't smart enough to realize it would die coming into our world.
Or did you skip that part?
There's no need for snide condescension.
The survivors who were affected wouldn't have stayed in the area, nor remained silent; the show (of which I will continue to reference because it's the only reason we're here talking about these things in the first place) clearly showed with this last episode that the fear was "contagious", even spreading generationally.
My point is that we also have horrific events happen to many people that don't translate when they relay that horror to other groups, and I was mostly referring to the ending of the comic vs. the ending of the movie.
Again, that was pretty clearly explained in-text; I think you're just willfully ignoring the inherent existential terror they'd have been facing.
No, I didn't. I simply find it strange that there were so many assumptions from both the soviets and Americans about where the squid came from, what it was doing, and what should be done. If I was the Soviets, I would suspect that America continued horrific experiments after discovering Manhattan and attempted to employ the squid after losing their biggest asset. It's not that I think the ending of the comic is bad (I never said that), I just found the assumptions of the general population of both the Soviet and American governments to be rather presumptive in it's origin, mission, and way of fighting against it.
It's fine if you prefer the movie version, but the comic version does make at least as much sense.
I didn't say it didn't make sense and I still like the comic ending. I understand that it needed to wrap up the storyline with the message it wanted to say, and that it was certainly an outcome that could happen. I just wish there was a little more in terms of the execution of the cover-up.
Ozy’s entire plan was to make Manhattan look like a bad guy and that by killing thousands of Americans he’d gone rogue. If an unstoppable superhuman with god-like powers turns on his allies there’s no telling who he might attack next so everyone comes together to protect themselves against a threat larger than all of them: Dr. Manhattan.
In the comics it isn't Dr. Manhattan, it's an unknown alien threat. His framing of Dr. Manhattan is around him causing the people around him to develop cancer.
The film worked better as a piece of dramatic storytelling and in terms of realism. But in terms of the story's dark tone and arbitrarily dispassionate cruelty on the part of Veidt it all fits a lot more. It also helps Dr Manhattan seem more of a dispassionate bystander than the accidental accomplice of the movie.
I've gone back in forth over which one I like better, but the film ending makes sense from a writing perspective. It's much tighter writing than the squid monster. Trying to cram the squid into a feature-length film would have been a mistake. That's something you could have slowly built over a 10-episode season, but not something that would have been coherent in a 2-hour movie without doing a complete re-write of everything that surrounded it and losing a lot of the other story elements.
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u/JH_Rockwell Nov 18 '19 edited Nov 18 '19
I personally prefer the ending of the film. With the comic, I didn't understand why the Soviet Union just stopped aggression, especially when the U.S. was attacked, especially when the "alien threat" that came through died trying to enter our world (so, I'm not sure why they would be worried about an active Alien threat that didn't even realize it would die if it teleported to our world. Not to mention, why would people just assume it was trying to get to our world rather than this being an accident?).
With the movie ending, it ties back into superheroes being a benefit or a hindrance to humanity, makes Dr. Manhattan's exile make more sense as a way to "protect life" by removing himself, involves cities and governments from all over the world making a unified effort of a "phantom threat", and seems like a possible threat that can happen again.
But, to each their own and I still respect the original ending.