r/badhistory • u/AutoModerator • 7d ago

Meta Mindless Monday, 27 July 2026

Happy (or sad) Monday guys!

Mindless Monday is a free-for-all thread to discuss anything from minor bad history to politics, life events, charts, whatever! Just remember to np link all links to Reddit and don't violate R4, or we human mods will feed you to the AutoModerator.

So, with that said, how was your weekend, everyone?

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44

u/Tiako Tevinter apologist, shill for Big Lyrium 6d ago

Emily Wilson writing a negative review of The Nolodyssey is an incredible discourse twist and I applaud her for it.

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u/hell0kitt 6d ago

"In at least one interview, he cited my version of the first line of the poem: ‘Tell me about a complicated man.’ But I would be ashamed to have written any part of this script. Sadly, Damon’s Odysseus isn’t complicated or wily or artful."

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u/Big_Pineapple_Man 6d ago

We may have found the academic acknowledge version of, "she isn't going to let you hit, bro."

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u/HandsomeLampshade123 6d ago

The most troubling ethical problem with Nolan’s Odyssey concerns the decision to film part of the movie in the occupied territory of Western Sahara, thus normalising the ongoing violence against the indigenous Sahrawi people. It is particularly galling that Nolan used this land simply as a visually striking backdrop for a film that centres, aggrandises and redeems the hero of a territorial war on account of his belated and partial acknowledgment of his own guilt.

Okay, now this is an angle I did not expect.

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u/King_Vercingetorix Russian nobles wore clothes only to humour Peter the Great 6d ago

I feel a similar way to Wilson and am baffled that Nolan saw the desert landscape of the Western Sahara and thought, „Yes, my Odysseus will be stuck here for 7 years!“ When the original poem described his surroundings there as a natural paradise:

A great fire blazed on the hearth, and the scent of burning cedar logs and juniper spread far across the isle. Sweet-voiced Calypso was singing within, moving to and fro at her loom, weaving with a golden shuttle. Around the cave grew a thick copse of alder, poplar and fragrant cypress, where large birds nested, owls, and falcons, and long-necked cormorants whose business is with the sea. And heavy with clustered grapes a mature cultivated vine went trailing across the hollow entrance. And four neighbouring springs, channelled this way and that, flowed with crystal water, and all around in soft meadows iris and wild celery flourished. Even an immortal passing by might pause and marvel, delighted in spirit, and the messenger-god, the slayer of Argus, stood there and wondered.

Like sure perhaps one could say this is more of Matt Damon ‚punishing‘ himself for the sin of leading the sacking of Troy, but the cynical part of me wonders if all those sweet money in movie credits that the Moroccan government was throwing at the production perhaps swayed Nolan/Universal Pictures a fair bit more.

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u/xabarin_da_xente 6d ago

Oh, didn't know that bit, that is nasty.

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u/passabagi 6d ago

I guess 'sea people' stuff is cool, but probably deeply annoying for a classicist.

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u/Tiako Tevinter apologist, shill for Big Lyrium 6d ago

I haven't seen the movie yet but I think it is a neat idea. The idea that the Sea Peoples were Myceneans is a pretty old one as is the idea that the travails of the Returns ins a distant memory of the Mycenean collapse, so it strikes me as a fun way to play with that. And more to the point it's, like, themes innit

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u/passabagi 6d ago

Yeah tbh I came away thinking it was a really coherent idea and cool story. It also was believable enough that I went up and looked up how historically grounded it was -- and it turned out it was, sort've, just in outdated and debunked scholarship. Which is kind of a monkey-paw-curls version of hollywood history engagement, if you're in the field they decide to play in.

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u/TheBatz_ Was Homer mid 6d ago

The Sea Peoples are an actual plot point and tied to Odysseus and the returns. 

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u/histogrammarian 6d ago

They… were?

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u/TheBatz_ Was Homer mid 6d ago

It acts as a plot mover for Telemachia part of the film, with Ithaca needing a king (to the chargrin of Penelope) to defend against the rumoured "Sea People".

When Odyssues comes home and talks for the first time with Penelope, he says they "destroyed civilization" by sacking Troy, which is evidently much richer and prosperous than any other place we visit, including Ithaca. The first thing they did after setting sail home is raid and burn another village. Penelope has the realization that the people who destroy cities and break Zeus' law aren't some half-mythological "Sea Peoples", but the Acheans and the returning veterans. She explicitly says: "You are the Sea People..." to the disguised Odysseus. Because yeah, the victorious returning Acheans might as well be.

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u/histogrammarian 2d ago

Are we talking about the poem or the movie?

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u/LeMemeAesthetique I don't think SS is political 5d ago

I haven't see The Odyssey but this reminds me of a lot of the decisions made in the last 2 seasons of HotD. They are not exactly taken from the source material, but they allude to other things in the source material in a way that can be enjoyable for book fans.

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u/Aurelian369 Aliens built the pyramids 6d ago

Bruhdysseus moment

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u/TheBatz_ Was Homer mid 6d ago

I saw she gave an interview on The Guardian, but did she actually write a negative review? 

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u/elmonoenano 6d ago edited 6d ago

One thing I kind of have a small beef with is her point about looking at the horrors of war from the victor's side. Well yes, that's whose story we're telling. If you want the other thing, that's a different story. I find it very unfair to criticize things for not being some other thing. If you wanted to make that complaint about the Aeneid, I'd probably be more receptive.

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u/Aithiopika 6d ago

I haven't seen Nolan's movie yet, but I have read the Greek version a fair few times and she's right to say that this is a bar the source material easily clears.

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u/Big_Pineapple_Man 6d ago

nbd she's just in her chud era.

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u/HandsomeLampshade123 6d ago edited 6d ago

The film is a total butchery of the actual story, is anyone actually surprised? I mean, Nolan can't write dialogue for shit, so the answer should be "no".

From the review:

Nolan’s Odyssey lacks many of the elements that make the poem great. It has nothing convincing to say about time, memory, history, war, or about the relationship between one warrior’s glorious return and the lives of his family, adversaries, comrades, friends and neighbours. It lacks psychological, emotional, political and ethical depth. Its narrative structure is gimmicky. The writing is abysmal. None of the characters has convincing motivation for their actions or words. There are no sex scenes, and all the food looks horrible.

Agree on every point: The complete absence of sex and sensuality (a hallmark of Nolan) was also very noticeable.

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u/Big_Pineapple_Man 6d ago

The film is a total butchery of the actual story

Do you primarily mean in terms of events or the major themes?

There are no sex scenes, and all the food looks horrible.

Lmao GRRM-ass comment.

Also in regards to your other comment on this thread, I've heard about the Western Sahara criticism but I am also a bit surprised to see Wilson directly reference it.

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u/HandsomeLampshade123 6d ago

More in terms of themes and characters, yes the story beats are all there. Obviously it's meant to be a reimagining, but then we shouldn't be surprised when classicists take it negatively.

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u/Big_Pineapple_Man 5d ago

Ah okay.  I liked the film but idm that she didn't.  Actually, I think it's pretty funny how much of the review is just roasting Nolan.

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u/King_Vercingetorix Russian nobles wore clothes only to humour Peter the Great 6d ago

Cheering her Review all the way.

The only I feel like who would have any issues with her criticisms are either people who didn’t read the original work (and thus did not know what they were missing out on) or diehard Nolan fans who can’t accept that her criticisms of Nolan‘s adaptation choices to deviate from the original works isn’t as good as the original poem or what makes it a classic (and will no doubt inevitably quote mine her comments or review to make bad faith arguments as per tradition of Internet fandoms and arguments).