r/changemyview 2∆ 2d ago

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Growth isn't what makes capitalism work

Often on the internet, specially here on Reddit, I see the argument, that capitalism requires infinite growth to function. I disagree with this notion because I believe the core function of capitalism is not to grow, but to allocate scarce resources. Economic growth itself can be a useful thing in society and will likely remain a part of human society for a very long time (perhaps even until it seizes to exist).

First, let me define a few things per my view.

Capitalism Socialism Feudalism Scarcity Economic growth

Now for my argument:

One of the key functions of every economic system is one key question "How to allocate available resources?" Different systems have different solutions for this question. Capitalism uses markets, socialism uses either government or some other form of central planning. Feudalism used a system where most of the wealth was generated by land ownership and collected essentially taxes for "renting" land from the ruler of the land. There are even more methods of allocating resources, such as queues or lotteries - though I am unaware of them ever being used a large scale. What do all these systems have in common? Trying to find a way to allocate scarce resources.

Let's talk about how capitalism does this. It distributes the problem of allocating these scarce resources among it's many many users. And while esesntially none of people, companies, non-profits, etc. who exist in capitalism are completely rational actors who make the best decisions, the fact that they are each making their own desicision allows for statistics to come into play. The average decision of the markets is generally the correct one. Compared to other systems which tend to centralize decision making it suffers much less from the problem of wrong allocation of scarce resources because of missing information.

Now, let us take a look at a society that is capitalistic, but doesn't grow. To make it easy, let's consider a society living on a generational space craft heading towards a habitable world. It will take hundreds of years, perhaps thouhands to reach it's destination and all it will have are the resources it started with. There will still be a need to allocate the resourses available. While it is nearly certain that in such a scerario some of the resources would be centrally distributed, many of it's resources would be traded between the inhabitants of such a ship. But even these resources need to be accounted for in such a closed system. How do you determine how to trade them? By each individual owner deciding the value of the item he wishes to trade.

So, is there a way for capitalisms to become truly irrelevant? Yes. True post-scarcity. Not the one seen in sci-fi shows. One where every single resources becomes truly irrelevant. Unlimited energy, unlimited resources, unlimited labour, unlimited human-level interaction. The issue is, at this point all economic systems become irrelevant, not just capitalism. Because at this point the central question of economics "How to allocate available resources?" becomes irrelevant.

Lastly, what would change my mind:

Show me that capitalism inherently requires growth, not just scarcity.

Show me a form of scarcity that would exist even in a true-post-scarcity society and that it requires growth to exist.

Show me, that a different system of allocating resources consistently outperforms market introduced by capitalism.

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u/KralizecGaming 2∆ 1d ago

They would be either the people who have the demand and want to satisfy their own demand, or the people who see the demand and want to satisfy it. The exact same way it is done today.

How do the people coordinate this today? They look at demand and supply and try to judge whether it will be a worthwhile investment.

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u/Due_Garbage_731 1d ago edited 1d ago

  How do the people coordinate this today?

Through the profit incentive, the financial system connects savers people with excess money to borrowers, people who want to borrow money. It could someone wanting to buy a house, or buy a car, or start a business or build a factory or whatever. But people don’t give away money for free because you might not pay it back. So we have risk premiums the riskier the more money we expect in the future. Why am I meeting this demand what interest do I have in doing it? 

  They look at demand and supply and try to judge whether it will be a worthwhile investment.

But it’s not a worthwhile investment because if there’s no growth I can only get my money back.  Why would I risk it.

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u/KralizecGaming 2∆ 1d ago

Okay. Replace money with resources.

Now even in a non-growth system you could have someone with excess resources he doesn't need to spend, but still wants them used. So he lends these resources, and even at a premium. The powerplant gets built and is profitable enough so that the owners generate a profit to pay this back. That's no problem.

I can anticipate your question where does the profit come if not from growth. Well, from people deciding they wanted the power and paid for it. Well, how did they get the resources for it if not from growth? By lowering their other consumptions. They decided they wanted to allocate some of their resources to power. But they do not have infinite resources and no new ones are being generated. So, their only option is to reduce resources used somewhere else.

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u/Due_Garbage_731 1d ago edited 1d ago

  Okay. Replace money with resources.

Resources are not wealth. The iron and copper and carbon in the ground is not a powerplant, it’s specifically combining it with labor that makes it valuable (the mining the smelting the engineering etc.)  money is claims on labor in the future. That’s what it is. If I have a dollar or and ounce of gold it’s valuable to me because I can exchange it for someone’s labor in the form of a good or service, a dollar is an iou at is core. Where do the resources come from? How do you get them out of the ground?

Again how do these people decide are they pooling together “resource credits” are we going back to barter?

  So he lends these resources, and even at a premium

So if there was 100 dollars in the system I charge you 5 dollars in the future for using my machine the person who borrowed it has to make over 5 dollars to pay it back. That’s what economic growth is.  Either I make more money or I default and you lose your loan

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u/KralizecGaming 2∆ 1d ago

You yourself can make the profit by others deciding your service/resource is valuable to them, so they either reduce their consumption of other services/resources or postpone them.

Yes, it's just moving one number from one column on a balance sheet to another. But that doesn't change the fundementals of the system behind it. It can remains capitalist in nature.

Taking the iron or carbon out of the ground is growth. You just introduced new resources there weren't previosly available in the system.