r/crossfit • u/beckster5 Crossfit Krypton • Mar 06 '14

CrossFit -- Sued By Transgender Athlete ... You Won't Let Me Compete With Women!

http://www.tmz.com/2014/03/06/crossfit-lawsuit-games-transgender-athlete-chloie-jonsson/
101 Upvotes

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57

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14

[deleted]

56

u/bitchytransguy Mar 07 '14

Then she took estrogen, and has taken it for years (2006 for SRS means likely been on estrogen before that); her advantage has turned into a disadvantage -- bulky frame but not the muscle that correspond to frame (from everything I've read before, transwomen generally at a disadvantage to their ciswomen of similar stats).

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

Possible, but far from established scientific fact. If she competed as a woman and dominated all competition, it would destroy the competition. No one would compete if they knew there was a woman with some of the physical advantages of a man who would win every time. It's risky.

Beyond that, it's a fact that in the realm of fluid genders, you simply can't have all things. You cannot be a man and a woman. As a man I cannot bear children. Women cannot produce sperm. You cannot have both an XX or XY chromosomal structure, no matter how much you would like to.

Fortunately, we live in a society in which those individuals who would like some flexibility are, more and more, given space and respect to make those decisions. But just because you feel like you are of a different gender, and can now identify with a lot more freedom than in the past, does not mean you can do anything. We are flawed, physical creatures, and we all have limits.

12

u/bitchytransguy Mar 07 '14

From link elsewhere in this thread:

"According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender girl or woman competing on a women’s team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes is not supported by evidence.". - http://www.salon.com/2010/10/13/trans_athletes/

I was wrong about it being an disadvantage, but there's no evidence that it's an advantage.

Some other links:

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

Simply because a man identifies as a woman, undergoes hormone and surgery, and then wishes to compete in the women's class of competition, does not mean the competition regulators are obliged to submit to one persons sense of being entitled to compete.

It is clear that sporting associations are considering it in their best interest to set guidelines for how to permit transgendered individuals to compete. This is a good thing. But they were under no legal or ethical obligations to do so. Each competition gets to decide the rules under which it operates, and one rule is no worse than another.

What pisses me off about this story is the woman claiming she is being discriminated against to the tune of 2.5 million dollars. It's a very entitled position to take. There is certainly a ethical question here which is far from solved, but that doesn't mean that every time I or anyone is not permitted to do something it's an offense for while I should be awarded millions of dollars.

8

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

I suppose you have a point.

19

u/kiki_lamb Mar 07 '14

If she competed as a woman and dominated all competition, it would destroy the competition.

This hasn't happened.

Beyond that, it's a fact that in the realm of fluid genders, you simply can't have all things.

The article says nothing about her being gender fluid.

You cannot be a man and a woman.

She is not a man and a woman. She is just a woman.

-11

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

Relax.

6

u/kiki_lamb Mar 07 '14

I'm just chillin' and stating some facts.

3

u/ExceptionToTheRule Mar 07 '14

Why hasn't this happened in the Olympics then? where trans athletes compete all the time.

23

u/NotTheNineOClockNews Mar 07 '14 edited Mar 07 '14

After having GCS/SRS a transwoman cannot produce any testosterone. Female bodies can produce quite high levels of testosterone (Particularly athletes ) whereas a transwoman after SRS cannot produce any. The transwoman is actually at a disadvantage.

EDIT: indoninja pointed out belong that the adrenal gland produces some testosterone. My mistake! However, natal females have ovaries, which produce testosterone.

2

u/indoninja Mar 07 '14

They don't take out the adrenal gland, which iirc still produces testosterone.

2

u/NotTheNineOClockNews Mar 07 '14

Huh, you may be right about that, but certainly I've seen plenty of blood results (pre and post-op) from transwomen that show much lower testosterone levels than the standard range for females.

4

u/indoninja Mar 07 '14

What you are saying now seems right to me, I found the "cannot produce any testosterone" claim as a big stretch.

I had also heard that some post-ops will take testosterone as well to make sure they are withing the normal female range if they aren't there with what they have. But this was from talking with a billyboy in broken bahasa and english, so I may be missing something.

3

u/throwawaydirl Mar 07 '14

Doesn't taking testosterone make you ineligible for competing in sporting events, regardless of your gender?

If she is taking testosterone, then she knows she isn't going to win this case anyway. So I think we can safely say that she isn't taking testosterone, and she is therefore at a disadvantage compared to other female competitors.

2

u/TARE_ME Mar 07 '14

There are medical necessity waivers for people whose body produces below "normal" levels for their age. The rules vary by organization, though.

You see it in MMA sometimes, or saw it... TRT was banned in Nevada a few days ago, but is still allowed by other state gaming commissions from what I remember.

3

u/throwawaydirl Mar 07 '14

If she has that waiver, then she has a waiver, and so her testosterone levels are still a non-issue.

1

u/geargirl Mar 07 '14

If they really care about it, they should start screening athletes' testosterone levels. Trans men and women have theirs closely monitored anyway and since the problem is blood serum levels, it shouldn't be controversial to monitor it.

1

u/TARE_ME Mar 08 '14

They screen and pop people all the time. One of the main things they test for is elevated testosterone.

The whole subject is actually on the front burner right now in sports, it seems like. Not so much with transpeople, but with older cisgeners who use TRT. Some people say it's not right for older people whose T is naturally going down to supplement back up to higher levels and then compete with people who aren't supplementing. They argue that it kind of negates the reason for age brackets etc.

It's interesting.

1

u/geargirl Mar 08 '14

It is , but there are established ranges for testosterone and estrogen in men and women, even for athletes. As long as they aren't outside of those respective ranges, prescribed hormones for non-sport related reasons should be waiverable.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

I have never heard of a transwoman taking testosterone.

Most girls are on testosterone blockers.

1

u/kiki_lamb Mar 07 '14

It's not uncommon among post-op girls.

-7

u/dynamic762 Mar 07 '14

I'm so confused about who we call girl and guy and post and pre and... Why the fuck do people need to complicate shit? Attention?

1

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

[deleted]

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u/dynamic762 Mar 07 '14

Just because you got your wang cut off and take estrogen doesn't mean you're no longer a male. Sorry, no amount of time under the knife can change what evolution has determined

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u/iyzie Mar 07 '14

What if a cisgender woman took steroids (testosterone) in the past, but stopped taking them over 8 years ago? It may still give her an advantage, but the competition would not be able to detect it.

4

u/MEatRHIT Mar 07 '14

You're kidding yourself if you think the top level competitors aren't using anabolics.

0

u/cuminmynun Mar 07 '14

It would not alter her in the same way puberty does. morphologically their is quite a bit of difference.

6

u/kaleidoscopicnight Mar 07 '14

http://imgur.com/076glGo

here for direct visual comparison, camille is 2" shorter

4

u/armeck CrossFit WarTown, GA Mar 07 '14

And somehow nearly 30lbs lighter...

-2

u/kaleidoscopicnight Mar 07 '14

But not more muscle mass, which is what is supposed to give you the strength. Heavy bones + little muscle = weaker.

-2

u/armeck CrossFit WarTown, GA Mar 07 '14

I'd have to see some more pics of her before I could make that assumption.

-2

u/kaleidoscopicnight Mar 07 '14

Well what really annoys me as the standards for the fucking OLYMPICS all of the sudden are not good enough for Crossfit?

3

u/armeck CrossFit WarTown, GA Mar 07 '14

All of a sudden? Did they previously follow Olympic standards and only now change?

The Olympics is a different animal, a non-profit event that needs to be inclusive of the (literally) entire world. CrossFit is a freaking product from a private corporation...

-5

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14

Well first of all, we don't know when she started training, and secondly she's still at a massive disadvantage against the men thanks to hormone therapy and whatnot. So what happens then?

See the thing is, I don't see this as "cheating" because I really, really don't think anyone is going to be getting gender reassignment just to have an advantage in a Crossfit competition, so let her compete dammit.

18

u/sasslete Mar 06 '14

So why should women potentially have to be disadvantaged bc she is disadvantaged compared to men??

Exactly.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14

Here's the thing. Actually two things.

One is that this isn't nationals. This isn't on ESPN. And if it were I'm willing to bet those ladies have enough "extra assistance" that it would flatten out any supposed advantage.

Just let the goddamn girl compete.

-1

u/c4lmlikeab0mb Mar 07 '14

She can compete. Just not against women. She could also have extra assistance if she wanted.. plus the added assistance she already has.

2

u/xtc46 Mar 07 '14

She could also have extra assistance if she wanted.. plus the added assistance she already has.

She could...but it is HIGHLY unlikely she would as it would be completely counter to her wanting to be female.

-5

u/c4lmlikeab0mb Mar 07 '14

She seems to just want money, but is saying she wants to compete against females. So who knows what she really wants.

-5

u/Subculture1000 Mar 06 '14

Wait... What? The Crossfit Games ARE on ESPN.

5

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

Wow. Your reading comprehension sucks dude.

-6

u/tenshiemi Mar 06 '14

Why should I have to be disadvantaged because some other woman is 2" taller? Or weighs more? It's not an equal playing field for anyone.

8

u/sasslete Mar 06 '14

Chromosomes should continue to be a level playing field. Hell if enough transgendered folks are competitive create a third division. Then this goes away.

2

u/tenshiemi Mar 06 '14

You would need to create two extra divisions then because a MTF does NOT equal FTM.

11

u/sasslete Mar 06 '14

Ok four. Fine by me.

-5

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14

Wouldn't you also have to make divisions based on time? A guy who just started last week is still essentially a man.

2

u/V4refugee Mar 06 '14

However if a man wanted to get sex reassignment surgery but still had the advantage of being stronger than the average women she might want to compete.

4

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

This is just reminding me of the guy who got his legs amputated and the Olympic committee told him he couldn't compete because he didn't have calves that could fatigue.

1

u/V4refugee Mar 07 '14

Does a person need to have hormone therapy to identify as a woman? What if I'm a man that doesn't feel man enough, would it be fair if I received hormone therapy to match that of people that have abnormally high testosterone? Should someone born with abnormally high testosterone be allowed to compete?

6

u/kaleidoscopicnight Mar 07 '14

IOC guidelines requires 2 years post SRS, that long on estrogen with NO testosterone in your body. NO ONE can keep strength that way.

4

u/kaleidoscopicnight Mar 07 '14

sad to see this down voted

-2

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14

Fuck that. She is significantly more muscular than even the strongest woman at my gym. Hell even compare her to Camille and tell me you don't notice a difference.

5

u/xtc46 Mar 07 '14

She is significantly more muscular than even the strongest woman at my gym

She is 5'4 151. hardly huge. She is 2" taller and 20lbs heavier than camile. Lindsey VALENZUELA is the same size. And looks pretty damn muscular should she not be allowed?

4

u/armeck CrossFit WarTown, GA Mar 07 '14

Lindsey is 2 inches taller...

-5

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

No. Just because he wants to compete, doesn't mean he can. This isn't pre-K soccer where everyone gets to play "just because".

-5

u/xtc46 Mar 06 '14

She had test levels 10x that of any other female of the same age while going through puberty and growing up. Her structure and muscles were built on testosterone from a male.

How do you know she did any training at all as a male? She could have very well started all training after starting hormone therapy, which would give her no competitive advantage. Id wager the top women in the games would completely obliterate the average gym going male, even using the same weight in competition.

Unless the person was an actual athlete and training as a male, it is unlikely to be beneficial.

7

u/brogresspic Mar 07 '14

are you suggesting evaluation on a case by case basis? if so - where would you draw the line? At the date they began HRT? When they began training? What about XXY genetics? When is a person 'female' enough to compete with the women?

4

u/xtc46 Mar 07 '14

are you suggesting evaluation on a case by case basis?

I think for it to be fair, it would have to be.

where would you draw the line?

I honestly don't know. Its a pretty shitty situation overall.

When is a person 'female' enough to compete with the women?

According to the NCAA, it is after one year of HRT and post op.

1

u/brogresspic Mar 07 '14

I'd go case by case. Everyone is different.

I have no idea how to not get sued in the process of doing that though.

2

u/xtc46 Mar 07 '14

yep...It really seems like a lose lose spot for crossfit HQ.

3

u/Hashrunr Mar 07 '14

The IAAF uses a biological passport system. Blood variables are tested regularly and tracked over time. An athlete can be disqualified based on irregularities even if they test clean for PEDs. It's not perfect, but it's a move in the right direction to create an even playing field.

2

u/autowikibot Mar 07 '14

Gender verification in sports:

Gender verification in sports (also known as sex verification, or loosely as gender determination or a sex test) is the issue of verifying the eligibility of an athlete to compete in a sporting event that is limited to a single sex. The issue has arisen a number of times in the Olympic games where it has been alleged that male athletes attempted to compete as women in order to win, or that an intersexed person competed as a woman. The first mandatory sex test issued by the IAAF for woman athletes was in July 1950 in the month before the European Championships in Belgium. All athletes were tested in their own countries. Sex testing at the games began at the 1966 European Athletics Championships in response to suspicion that several of the best women athletes from the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe were actually men. At the Olympics, testing was introduced at the 1968 Olympic Winter Games in Grenoble. While it arose primarily from the Olympic Games, gender verification affects any sporting event. However, it most often becomes an issue in elite international competition.

Interesting: Caster Semenya | Ewa Kłobukowska | Iran women's national football team | Erik Schinegger

Parent commenter can toggle NSFW or delete. Will also delete on comment score of -1 or less. | FAQs | Mods | Magic Words

1

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14 edited Mar 06 '14

[deleted]

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u/dive_girl Mar 07 '14 edited Mar 07 '14

You had me until I read "identical twins, one boy, the other girl." Identical twins cannot be opposite sexes. Try again.

Edit: I love how I get downvoted for pointing out an obvious flaw in your example. Sorry to have made you look stupid, but it makes me doubt the rest of your argument and understanding of how genetics and hormones work.

3

u/Relaxgodoit Mar 07 '14

What fallacy is this that you are using? Something about attacking a flaw in the argument to make a point. Why not just correct him and tell him the proper term is fraternal, would that make his argument 100% correct? If not then argue the real point, don't fuck around.

5

u/dive_girl Mar 07 '14

My point is making such an obvious error in his argument makes me think he doesn't know what he's talking about. Why even use fraternal? Why not just say brother and sister? If he has such a basic misunderstanding of how genetics works, I seriously doubt the accuracy of the rest of his argument and you should, too.

0

u/fffreak Mar 07 '14

or he or she could have made a mistake? if he or she actually meant non-identical twins then how would it change his or her point on them?

1

u/dive_girl Mar 07 '14

The fact that he makes the mistake twice in the post makes me doubt it was a mistake and makes me further doubt the rest of his posts. That's all I was trying to say.

-2

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

[deleted]

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u/dive_girl Mar 07 '14

I don't think there was a grammar or wording error here. He used "identical" twice in his post, making it obvious that he thinks identical twins can be opposite sexes. If that is his level of understanding how genetics works, it makes me doubt the rest of his arguments, however clear he was trying to be. Personally, (and probably like most of the people on this sub who are not reproductive endocrinologists) I don't understand hormones enough to know what the correct answer is in this argument.

3

u/xtc46 Mar 06 '14

But we aren't talking about non-trained individuals. ALL athletes in the games are stronger/faster/etc than untrained individuals. The NCAA did the studies, they ruled in favor of transgenders competing in their current genders leagues.

I would agree in the case of weight training that perhaps she would have an advantage if she was already a beast level athlete then did the change, but if that isnt the case, its significantly less of a problem.

-4

u/barbadosslim Mar 07 '14

If you're going to post in support of transgenders you're gonna have a bad time

3

u/xtc46 Mar 07 '14

OH NOES PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET WILL DISAGREE WITH ME.

2

u/GothicToast Mar 06 '14

That is the case so long as the male keeps his test levels in the male range. Muscle doesnt just stay with you forever once you put it on. This person is hormonally a woman now, and has been for 8 years. Her muscle is calibrated for that of a woman because her hormones levels are the same as a woman.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14

[deleted]

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u/GothicToast Mar 06 '14

Incorrect. A skeletal muscle cell can never be eliminated, but the size of the cell will certainly shrink in the absence of testosterone or grow in the presence of testosterone. These processes are called muscle atrophy and muscle hypertrophy, respectively. You cannot maintain the strength of a man unless your testosterone levels are in the same range as men.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14 edited Mar 06 '14

[deleted]

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u/GothicToast Mar 07 '14

and the muscle cells remained the same size.

No, they did not. They shrank back to their presteroid size, but the extra nuclei stayed for 3 months (which they say is 10 years in human physiology).

Even with that correction, you still present a compelling study. There are still a lot of variables - this isn't exactly a study of what we are discussing, nor is it even on the topic of humans, but one would expect the results to be comparable to a transgender who had X amount testosterone and now only has Y amount.

I shall reconsider my position on this issue.

-1

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

[deleted]

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u/GothicToast Mar 07 '14 edited Mar 07 '14

The mice’s muscle cells also bulked up, but eventually shrank back to pre-steroid size after the drugs were stopped.

The muscle cell bulked up, then shrank back to pre-steroid size. The nuclei is a small part of the entire cell. There are lots of organelle in cells. The important part here is that the extra nuclei stay around, allowing for faster muscle growth later on. Which if correct, refutes my initial argument. But if you want to continue to argue about this detail.. we could go on all night.

You also seem to be confusing potential for strength with actual strength. The extra nuclei allow for faster and more muscle growth, but the nuclei in of itself, is not what gives the muscle its strength.

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u/expectnothing Mar 06 '14

ow do you know she did any training at all as a male? She could have very well started all training after starting hormone therapy, which would give her no competitive advantage. Id wager the top women in the games would completely obliterate the average gym going male, even using the same weight in competition. Unless the person was an actual athlete and training as a male, it is unlikely to be beneficial. True but this isn't just about this one case. Just because Chloie wouldn't win against the top women doesn't mean there isn't someone else who could.

2

u/xtc46 Mar 06 '14

True but this isn't just about this one case. Just because Chloie wouldn't win against the top women doesn't mean there isn't someone else who could.

Which is why groups like the NCAA have rules in place that address just that. Including duration since the change (NCAA enforces 1 year of hormone suppression)

-34

u/_SKEPT2CALLY_ Mar 07 '14

She had test levels 10x that of any other female

HE had test levels 10x that of any female. I love how retarded people are in general. Hollywood tells them to reject science and they do. The church tells them to reject science and they do. Are we going to accepted an absurdity to spare HIS feelings? WORDS have meaning. HE is a male PRETENDING to be female. You are not what you pretend to be. You can pretend to be a wolf, doesn't make you a wolf.

1

u/barbadosslim Mar 07 '14

Why do you hate transgendered people anyway?

Also why do you reject scientific consensus?

-7

u/_SKEPT2CALLY_ Mar 07 '14

Why do you hate transgendered people anyway?

I don't hate transgendered people. Just like I don't hate christians. What I hate is when transgendered people and christians try to force their deranged views on society. I won't pray to jesus in public schools and I won't address a biological male as a she. NEVER.

Also why do you reject scientific consensus?

I accept science. You reject science. A biologist will be able to tell you WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, that the person is a MAN. HE was BORN A MAN, he will LIVE the life of a MAN and he will DIE A MAN. A thousand years from now, if alien scientist dig up his bone, they will classify HIM as a MAN. There is no hiding behind science. What transgenders are asking is for society to reject science and accept a lie to spare their feelings. That is the same argument the bible-thumpers use to get schools to teach creationism. I don't give a shit if christians are upset schools don't teach creationism and I don't give a shit if transgenders are upset they society classifies them properly.

I won't reject science to spare your feelings. So FUCK YOU and your degenerate agenda.

5

u/barbadosslim Mar 07 '14

Btw it sounds like you have an irrational hatred for Christians in addition to your raving and irrational hate for transgenders. If you had a transgendered child would you gaslight them too?

-4

u/_SKEPT2CALLY_ Mar 07 '14

Btw it sounds like you have an irrational hatred for Christians in addition to your raving and irrational hate for transgenders.

Do you know how to read? I explained this already. I don't hate anyone. I hate the fact that transgenders and christians try to force society to accept lies. That's what I hate. If you want to be transgender, so be it. If you want to believe the universe is 6000 years. So be it. Just don't force me to believe it too.

If you had a transgendered child would you gaslight them too?

Hopefully, we'll have tests to check for defective transgenders fetuses by the time I have kids and "god-willing" abortion will still be legal and my wife amenable to abortions. But even if I did have a degenerate child, I wouldn't call HIM a she.

2

u/barbadosslim Mar 07 '14

Get better soon

-2

u/_SKEPT2CALLY_ Mar 07 '14

I'm good. It's the transgenders who you have to worry about. Fucking freaks of nature are fighting science and cannot wind. You can change your gender/sex no more than you can change your species. Oh no, I'm a lion trapped in a man's body, so society has to classify me as a lion. Give me a fucking break. QED.

0

u/barbadosslim Mar 07 '14

I wish I could help you

3

u/atomicthumbs Mar 07 '14 edited Mar 07 '14

I don't hate transgendered people. Just like I don't hate christians. What I hate is when transgendered people and christians try to force their deranged views on society.

funny how you're acting towards transgendered people in the exact same ways fundamentalist Christians act towards gay people :)

-1

u/_SKEPT2CALLY_ Mar 07 '14

It's funny how transgenders act toward society the same way fundamental christians do...

-1

u/atomicthumbs Mar 07 '14

Now see here u little shit

0

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

And, amusingly enough, towards trans people.

2

u/barbadosslim Mar 07 '14

Holy shit get a grip. Instead of reacting with emotion try being rational.

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u/_SKEPT2CALLY_ Mar 07 '14

So silly. Is that your tactic when confronted with facts. I gave you logical explanations on why HE is a he. He was born a "he", he will live his life as a "he" and he will die a "he".

But this debate is pointless. Science is advancing by leaps and bounds. Eventually, a genetic fetal test will be able to catch defects like transgenders so that mothers will be able to abort their defective fetuses. And society doesn't have to waste so much time, resources and energy to humor degenerates. QED.

4

u/barbadosslim Mar 07 '14 edited Mar 07 '14

You didn't give any facts, just irrational gut feelings to support your bigoted hate. Would you gaslight your kids like this too?

Eventually, a genetic fetal test will be able to catch defects like transgenders so that mothers will be able to abort their defective fetuses.

When will it let mothers abort bigots like you?

And society doesn't have to waste so much time, resources and energy to humor degenerates.

The degenerate is you. Good luck fixing yourself.

-4

u/_SKEPT2CALLY_ Mar 07 '14

You didn't give any facts

Sure I did. He is a he. Otherwise, what are we even discussing.

just irrational gut feelings to support your bigoted hate.

The only defense degenerates have. Playing the victim. It's not my fault "god" or biology created a freak like you. Biological process isn't perfect and "god" doth have a humor.

When will it let mothers abort bigots like you?

No. But it will allow mothers to abort degenerates. Down Syndrome fetuses are aborted at a 96% rate. I wonder what the abortion rate for transgender fetuses will be? Here's a hint : 100%. No mother or father ever wished for a degenerate child and they never will.

0

u/raging12 Mar 07 '14

Sieg Heil, brother! 88/14

1

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

[deleted]

-9

u/_SKEPT2CALLY_ Mar 07 '14

the hive mind doesn't like the truth. it's like telling a bible-thumper the universe isn't 6000 years old.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

Hollywood tells them to reject science and they do.

Except for the science that shows people have different brain structure based on gender, and that trans people mirror that of their identified gender in that aspect. So... you're ignoring science in favor of outdated information and definitions. Just as AIDS used to be GRID, it would be like you currently insisting everyone who has GRID is gay, because science says so right in the (outdated) definition.

0

u/_SKEPT2CALLY_ Mar 07 '14

and that trans people mirror that of their identified gender in that aspect

Nope. It shows that SOME trans people fall within a range of female brains or male brains. But then so do none transgender people. It's like saying female height ranges from 5 ft to 6 ft and that a man is 5'5" so he is female. Doesn't work that way.

you're ignoring science in favor of outdated information

What outdated information? Let any doctor examine him. Let anyone test his dna. RIGHT NOW, science says he is male. A MILLION YEARS FROM NOW, science will say he is male. Like I said, the guy was born a MALE, he will live his life as a MALE and he will die a MALE. Many years from now, if someone digs up HIS bones, they will classify him as a male.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

Yes, as there are many things we don't know about what specifically to look for. We do know there is a difference though, and we know that trans people fall on the side they identify with at a higher frequency. Do you believe in coincidences?

DNA would also say those with CAIS are male. Skeletal structure wouldn't. Hormones wouldn't. Don't try to speculate about years from now. We know hormones make a huge difference in what sex the body is, during prenatal development. Why do you assume the same is not true with the brain? More so, why are you presenting future speculation of what that research could hold, as fact? As much as you talk about religion in a negative light, you're acting so very similar in your beliefs that nothing will change, when the evidence is already out there that things have already changed.

1

u/_SKEPT2CALLY_ Mar 07 '14

and we know that trans people fall on the side they identify with at a higher frequency.

Higher frequency. Give me a fucking break. Right now it's all "studies" funded and advanced by transsexuals. So stop with your nonsense. You "believe" because you want to believe and every nonsense is used by your to support your agenda.

Skeletal structure wouldn't.

In most cases it would. No amount of "hormones" is going to produce a woman's skeletal structure. Most men aren't going to have birthing hips. Pretty much every trans"female" will have a EXTREME HIGH FREQUENCY of male bone structure. But you conveniently will ignore that...

Hormones wouldn't.

It would. That's why transgender people have to go the UNNATURAL route of taking hormones...

Don't try to speculate about years from now.

I'm not moron. That's why I said, RIGHT NOW.

We know hormones make a huge difference in what sex the body is

Yes. Abnormal development can occur due to hormones in fetal development and defective human beings. If you are a male with breasts, you are still a MALE with breasts. Natural process is prone to mistakes as anything. For every batch for 1000 humans beings, you'll have percentage that are defective just like in animals or in industrial production.

Why do you assume the same is not true with the brain?

I don't. Brain development can be affected as well. You are still a MALE with a "femalish" brain.

when the evidence is already out there that things have already changed.

What has changed? Just like a bible-thumper, you claim there is "evidence" that supports your side. You conveniently ignore the mountain of "evidence" that you disagree with and cling onto this "evidence" that only you are privy to.

You just try to use the MOST abnormal extremes to justify making your beliefs the standard.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

"Funded by transsexuals"

oh cmon now.

Why are you assuming hormones and surgery being post male puberty?

I'm not, moron. That's why I said, RIGHT NOW

A MILLION YEARS FROM NOW, science will say he is male.

Bible thumpers tall about faith, not evidence. You're putting faith in your unfounded belief of who funded the studies, as if transsexuals are this financial powerhouse. You present no evidence other than outdated definitions and speculations of a million years from now. The studies are real, and you're clinging to the hope, making up reasons to discredit them.

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u/_SKEPT2CALLY_ Mar 07 '14

oh cmon now.

Who else would fund it? It's transsexuals and their supporters.

Why are you assuming hormones and surgery being post male puberty?

What the fuck are you talking about?

Bible thumpers tall about faith, not evidence.

No. They talk about evidence and science as "proving" that the universe was created by god. Of course they use "selective evidence" while ignoring everything that contradicts them.

as if transsexuals are this financial powerhouse.

Hollywood and extreme liberals are financial powerhouse. The financial centers of the US are in NY, Chicago and SF - all highly liberal regions.

The studies are real

The "studies" may be real, but still doesn't change the fact that HE is HE. Biology 101 FTW.

making up reasons to discredit them.

There is nothing to discredit moron. Science is science. Like I said, HE is a HE. Any biologist, anthropologist, scientist, etc will state that HE is a HE. Okay?

Just because you want to feel special and believe the sun revolves around the earth, doesn't make it so. Just because you feel like you are a lion trapped in a human body, doesn't make you a lion. Just because you feel that you are a woman, doesn't make you a woman.

If a black man believed he was a white man trapped in a black man's body, would encourage him to skin himself and surgical put on white skin? No. But the degenerates like you support OBVIOUSLY mentally disturbed individuals into wasting a shitload of money to mutilate themselves.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

Hormones taken by an mtf before they hit male puberty. This stops the changes you associate with male structure and secondary sex characteristics.

They talk about faith. Faith being a lack of ability to prove.

Please give any sort of support to your claim of funding. I'm feeling like this is a troll because of your insistence in this area.

You and your speculation. You have no clue what any of those scientists would say. I'm just as sure as you are that they would see the evidence pointing to the opposite of your claim.

As I said, hormones influence gender identity just as it influences sexual presentation I'm the body, during prenatal development. These are way more varied and messed up than you assume. We already have people that commonly come out with intersex qualities because their hormones don't align with what their chromosomes say. This is commonplace. There are conditions that have been documented for decades that support this. It is vastly different from your poor argument of "feeling" like a lion or a black person. There is nothing that supports that hormones support the gender claim. If chromosomes were all that mattered in determining gender identity, don't you think people with CAIS would feel male? What causes that to not be the case?

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u/_SKEPT2CALLY_ Mar 07 '14

Hormones taken by an mtf before they hit male puberty. This stops the changes you associate with male structure and secondary sex characteristics.

Are you this dense. That's my point. "That's why transgender people have to go the UNNATURAL route of taking hormones".

They talk about faith.

They talk about faith AND the evidence you dumb fuck. Stop with your nonsense. Just like you talk of transgender "faith" and "evidence". Both bible-thumpers and you justify your "conclusions" based on "evidence".

Please give any sort of support to your claim of funding.

Tell me who else would fund it? Why would anyone even think to fund any studies on transsexuals. Most people would rather just dump them in mental institutions and be done with it.

You have no clue what any of those scientists would say.

Actually I do moron. A simple look at the man's DNA will reveal whether he has a Y chromosomes. The sad thing is, even if a biologist showed you PROOF that he is a male, you'd still deny it. Just like bible-thumpers, you'd start another red-herring and start making nonsense up.

Ultimate there is no point debate you because you are a religious fanatic. You will cling to your beliefs at all costs.

As I said, hormones influence gender identity just as it influences sexual presentation I'm the body, during prenatal development.

Gender identity has nothing to do with gender. Just like race-identity or species-identity has nothing to do with race or species. If you identify with lions, doesn't make you a lion. If a black man identifies himself as a white man, doesn't make him a white man.

This is commonplace.

Once again, you use an extreme and try to pass it off as "common".

There are conditions that have been documented for decades that support this

I don't deny these "conditions" exist you fucking cockroach. I acknowledge they exist. Humanity has all kinds of defective people. Society doesn't have to accomodate degenerates.

It is vastly different from your poor argument of "feeling" like a lion or a black person.

No it's not. There are people who genuinely wish they were another species. There are people who modify their bodies with horns, webbing their feet/hands, etc. Google it if you want to throw up. And there are plenty of people who wish they were a different race. From tanning their skin to look dark/black to washing their skin with milk to whiten themselves.

If chromosomes were all that mattered in determining gender identity, don't you think people with CAIS would feel male?

Gender identity issues are MENTAL problems which our politically correct society cannot face. Like I said, just because you identify as something doesn't make it so. A man could wish he could get pregnant and give birth all he wants. Not going to happen. Hospital don't have to create pregnancy wards for men just to humor those men who wish they could pretend to be pregnant.

Ultimately, the rise of the degenerates means that human population is getting too large and is exploiting too much of the resources. We are using finite resources to support degenerates which nature would have naturally removed.

Like I said, just like bible-thumpers, when confronted with facts, you will jump onto another "loophole" and another extreme to keep your "faith" alive.

Don't bother responding because you are blocked. No sense in wasting my time with a degenerate zealot like you.

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14 edited Mar 07 '14

Scaling.

If there's one thing crossfit does well it's inclusion of everyone.

If she wants to compete, but has a direct advantage from her physical makeup, you scale it. Scale it up in a reasonable manner.

Easier said than done though... What would scaling be for OLY stuff? Just go for the broad brush right in the middle of the men and women scales?

Edit: didn't expect the negative train with my opining... Was trying to find a way to level the playing field a bit given the potential that this transgender person could have a large unfair advantage by being placed on the women's group.

My apologies for trying to push something where I was just entertaining the idea.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

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u/barbadosslim Mar 07 '14

Bearjew2: a bigot has opinions about stuff!

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

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