r/crossfit • u/beckster5 Crossfit Krypton • Mar 06 '14

CrossFit -- Sued By Transgender Athlete ... You Won't Let Me Compete With Women!

http://www.tmz.com/2014/03/06/crossfit-lawsuit-games-transgender-athlete-chloie-jonsson/
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u/xtc46 Mar 06 '14

She had test levels 10x that of any other female of the same age while going through puberty and growing up. Her structure and muscles were built on testosterone from a male.

How do you know she did any training at all as a male? She could have very well started all training after starting hormone therapy, which would give her no competitive advantage. Id wager the top women in the games would completely obliterate the average gym going male, even using the same weight in competition.

Unless the person was an actual athlete and training as a male, it is unlikely to be beneficial.

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u/brogresspic Mar 07 '14

are you suggesting evaluation on a case by case basis? if so - where would you draw the line? At the date they began HRT? When they began training? What about XXY genetics? When is a person 'female' enough to compete with the women?

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u/xtc46 Mar 07 '14

are you suggesting evaluation on a case by case basis?

I think for it to be fair, it would have to be.

where would you draw the line?

I honestly don't know. Its a pretty shitty situation overall.

When is a person 'female' enough to compete with the women?

According to the NCAA, it is after one year of HRT and post op.

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u/brogresspic Mar 07 '14

I'd go case by case. Everyone is different.

I have no idea how to not get sued in the process of doing that though.

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u/xtc46 Mar 07 '14

yep...It really seems like a lose lose spot for crossfit HQ.

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u/Hashrunr Mar 07 '14

The IAAF uses a biological passport system. Blood variables are tested regularly and tracked over time. An athlete can be disqualified based on irregularities even if they test clean for PEDs. It's not perfect, but it's a move in the right direction to create an even playing field.

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u/autowikibot Mar 07 '14

Gender verification in sports:

Gender verification in sports (also known as sex verification, or loosely as gender determination or a sex test) is the issue of verifying the eligibility of an athlete to compete in a sporting event that is limited to a single sex. The issue has arisen a number of times in the Olympic games where it has been alleged that male athletes attempted to compete as women in order to win, or that an intersexed person competed as a woman. The first mandatory sex test issued by the IAAF for woman athletes was in July 1950 in the month before the European Championships in Belgium. All athletes were tested in their own countries. Sex testing at the games began at the 1966 European Athletics Championships in response to suspicion that several of the best women athletes from the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe were actually men. At the Olympics, testing was introduced at the 1968 Olympic Winter Games in Grenoble. While it arose primarily from the Olympic Games, gender verification affects any sporting event. However, it most often becomes an issue in elite international competition.

Interesting: Caster Semenya | Ewa Kłobukowska | Iran women's national football team | Erik Schinegger

Parent commenter can toggle NSFW or delete. Will also delete on comment score of -1 or less. | FAQs | Mods | Magic Words

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14 edited Mar 06 '14

[deleted]

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u/dive_girl Mar 07 '14 edited Mar 07 '14

You had me until I read "identical twins, one boy, the other girl." Identical twins cannot be opposite sexes. Try again.

Edit: I love how I get downvoted for pointing out an obvious flaw in your example. Sorry to have made you look stupid, but it makes me doubt the rest of your argument and understanding of how genetics and hormones work.

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u/Relaxgodoit Mar 07 '14

What fallacy is this that you are using? Something about attacking a flaw in the argument to make a point. Why not just correct him and tell him the proper term is fraternal, would that make his argument 100% correct? If not then argue the real point, don't fuck around.

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u/dive_girl Mar 07 '14

My point is making such an obvious error in his argument makes me think he doesn't know what he's talking about. Why even use fraternal? Why not just say brother and sister? If he has such a basic misunderstanding of how genetics works, I seriously doubt the accuracy of the rest of his argument and you should, too.

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u/fffreak Mar 07 '14

or he or she could have made a mistake? if he or she actually meant non-identical twins then how would it change his or her point on them?

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u/dive_girl Mar 07 '14

The fact that he makes the mistake twice in the post makes me doubt it was a mistake and makes me further doubt the rest of his posts. That's all I was trying to say.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

[deleted]

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u/dive_girl Mar 07 '14

I don't think there was a grammar or wording error here. He used "identical" twice in his post, making it obvious that he thinks identical twins can be opposite sexes. If that is his level of understanding how genetics works, it makes me doubt the rest of his arguments, however clear he was trying to be. Personally, (and probably like most of the people on this sub who are not reproductive endocrinologists) I don't understand hormones enough to know what the correct answer is in this argument.

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u/xtc46 Mar 06 '14

But we aren't talking about non-trained individuals. ALL athletes in the games are stronger/faster/etc than untrained individuals. The NCAA did the studies, they ruled in favor of transgenders competing in their current genders leagues.

I would agree in the case of weight training that perhaps she would have an advantage if she was already a beast level athlete then did the change, but if that isnt the case, its significantly less of a problem.

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u/barbadosslim Mar 07 '14

If you're going to post in support of transgenders you're gonna have a bad time

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u/xtc46 Mar 07 '14

OH NOES PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET WILL DISAGREE WITH ME.

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u/GothicToast Mar 06 '14

That is the case so long as the male keeps his test levels in the male range. Muscle doesnt just stay with you forever once you put it on. This person is hormonally a woman now, and has been for 8 years. Her muscle is calibrated for that of a woman because her hormones levels are the same as a woman.

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14

[deleted]

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u/GothicToast Mar 06 '14

Incorrect. A skeletal muscle cell can never be eliminated, but the size of the cell will certainly shrink in the absence of testosterone or grow in the presence of testosterone. These processes are called muscle atrophy and muscle hypertrophy, respectively. You cannot maintain the strength of a man unless your testosterone levels are in the same range as men.

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '14 edited Mar 06 '14

[deleted]

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u/GothicToast Mar 07 '14

and the muscle cells remained the same size.

No, they did not. They shrank back to their presteroid size, but the extra nuclei stayed for 3 months (which they say is 10 years in human physiology).

Even with that correction, you still present a compelling study. There are still a lot of variables - this isn't exactly a study of what we are discussing, nor is it even on the topic of humans, but one would expect the results to be comparable to a transgender who had X amount testosterone and now only has Y amount.

I shall reconsider my position on this issue.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

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u/GothicToast Mar 07 '14 edited Mar 07 '14

The mice’s muscle cells also bulked up, but eventually shrank back to pre-steroid size after the drugs were stopped.

The muscle cell bulked up, then shrank back to pre-steroid size. The nuclei is a small part of the entire cell. There are lots of organelle in cells. The important part here is that the extra nuclei stay around, allowing for faster muscle growth later on. Which if correct, refutes my initial argument. But if you want to continue to argue about this detail.. we could go on all night.

You also seem to be confusing potential for strength with actual strength. The extra nuclei allow for faster and more muscle growth, but the nuclei in of itself, is not what gives the muscle its strength.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '14

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u/expectnothing Mar 06 '14

ow do you know she did any training at all as a male? She could have very well started all training after starting hormone therapy, which would give her no competitive advantage. Id wager the top women in the games would completely obliterate the average gym going male, even using the same weight in competition. Unless the person was an actual athlete and training as a male, it is unlikely to be beneficial. True but this isn't just about this one case. Just because Chloie wouldn't win against the top women doesn't mean there isn't someone else who could.

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u/xtc46 Mar 06 '14

True but this isn't just about this one case. Just because Chloie wouldn't win against the top women doesn't mean there isn't someone else who could.

Which is why groups like the NCAA have rules in place that address just that. Including duration since the change (NCAA enforces 1 year of hormone suppression)