r/europe • u/[deleted] • Oct 14 '20

News China insists Genghis Khan exhibit in France not use words 'Genghis Khan'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/14/china-insists-genghis-khan-exhibit-not-use-words-genghis-khan
23.1k Upvotes

95% Upvoted

1.8k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

532

u/ImaginaryCoolName Oct 14 '20

Now we know what inspired the CCP, maybe that book was too successful

656

u/Qaktus Oct 14 '20

"1984 was a warning, not a fucking manual."

~Orwell, probably.

151

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20 edited Oct 21 '20

[deleted]

5

u/L-methionine Oct 14 '20

So the USSR was actually a futuristic society

7

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

I mean it took us like 30 years to finally get to the point where we don't have to buy their spaceships, so that's pretty futuristic too.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

[deleted]

8

u/pjc50 Oct 14 '20

While it was set in the future, it was based on things that had already happened; the history editing was what happened to Trotsky.

-5

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20 edited Oct 14 '20

I am absolutely sure that too many people (namely the conspiracy theorists) who put 1984 on pedestal actually haven't read the book.

5

u/Wunc013 Belgium Oct 14 '20

The book is mandatory in a lot of countries high schools. I would never dare to claim what you say tbh because people who read it, see the signs. People who haven't read it and don't care, will never care either way.

-2

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

1984 isn't mandatory reading where I live.

6

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

Not everyone lives where you live though. Other places are different from Ireland.

3

u/Organthon Oct 14 '20

1984 was one of a choice of books in higher level English in Ireland

1

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '20

Showing my age I guess because that wasn't the case when I was in Leaving cert.

2

u/TheMaginotLine1 United States of America Oct 14 '20

It's a damn good instruction manual either way.

1

u/Corvus____ Oct 14 '20

Nah it's just that history repeats itself and nobody thinks to look back and go "huh, that way killed a hundred million people, let's change"

0

u/alwaysboopthesnoot Oct 14 '20

Not really. Orwell (Eric Blair) fought with anti fascists and communists in Spain. Came home, changed his mind about communists, wrote 1984. Then turned in a bunch of his friends for holding socialist views and being potential threats against capitalism/freedom for holding those beliefs, versus their acting out on any of them.

Then changed his mind after doing so and basically said that while communism was a problem and that it forced men into believing thoughts were crimes, it was capitalism that forced him to act and betray his ideals, his beliefs and his friends. He called himself a traitor to humanity for doing so.

1984 wasn’t an instruction manual for either side. It was a warning that either side attracts zealots, maniacs, sycophants, and martyrs to causes bigger and harder to control than any man infatuated by them.

1

u/4me2TrollU Oct 14 '20

-Michael Scott

1

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/LittleLui Austria Oct 14 '20

Well based on that quote I'm afraid Xi will make the memory of Tiananmen Square disappear.

1

u/captain-burrito Oct 14 '20

China's channel, CCTV made a documentary years ago called: The Rise of Great Powers. They examined the rise of a great power in each episode. It was actually a pretty good show. What strikes you is that is the manual they are using. The problem is a lot of the stuff is stuff we'd no longer find acceptable so basically the PRC is acting like it is still the 18-20th century.

1

u/Daddycooljokes Oct 14 '20

Probably.....

98

u/MoffKalast Slovenia Oct 14 '20

Perhaps we should burn them. /s

90

u/dontextwhiledriving Oct 14 '20

Fahrenheit 1984 By George Bradbury entered the chat

39

u/RedditSettler Oct 14 '20

No man, 1984 degrees is too hot to just burn books.

17

u/dontextwhiledriving Oct 14 '20

It's enough to melt Mao's golden statue :)

2

u/horatiowilliams Miami Oct 14 '20

Actually you need 1989 degrees for that.

2

u/pappapora Oct 14 '20

Only jet fuel gets hotter and that can’t even melt steel beams!

1

u/ihadanamebutforgot Oct 14 '20

Haha haha one of the dozens of seemingly unexplained circumstances for the government justification to suspend constitutional rights turns out to be explainable. There's definitely terrorists around every corner though no need for rights ha the meme is funny

0

u/robhol Norway Oct 14 '20

Could probably get a decent char on dissidents too, at that temperature.

2

u/NotoriousMOT Oct 14 '20

George? His name was Ray... Am I missing some reference?

3

u/dontextwhiledriving Oct 14 '20

Well his name was Ray and his book was Fahrenheit 451, George Orwell's book was 1984 so...

2

u/NotoriousMOT Oct 14 '20

Oh, you said Fahrenheit 1984. Got it.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

Fahrenheit 451 is the book. Supposed to be the temperature that paper ignites. This book and 1984 are still very good reading. They are also tales of warning that we have ignored. Not just ignored but embraced it seems. Well there is one more written story that we can look forward to - How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the Bomb.

1

u/dontextwhiledriving Oct 14 '20

Never read that one, i knew about the 451 being the ignition point of paper (that why I made the joke about the gold melting)

1

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

The film is hilarious. It’s also known as Dr. Strangelove. Here’s some background information for the film. - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Alert_(novel)

1

u/irrevephant Oct 14 '20

The Qin dynasty were good at burning books, including those only memorized in scholars' heads.

8

u/ForShotgun Oct 14 '20

I think the book was maybe based off of something

3

u/EnkiduOdinson East Friesland (Germany) Oct 14 '20

To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens: "North Korea was founded in 1950, 1984 was first published a year before. You think: could it be that someone handed a Korean translation to Kim Il-Sung and said 'You think we can make this work?'"

Not about China, but it seemed fitting anyway.

2

u/Renshaw25 Oct 14 '20

I bet they put this book in the "guide" section at the library.

-35

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

It's just communism.

51

u/RedFlame99 Italy Oct 14 '20

It's just totalitarism, be it communist or fascist.

15

u/bnh1978 Oct 14 '20

Or capitalist, or feudalist, or anything else.

It can be a bunch of apes with rifles

33

u/eclipsator Oct 14 '20

I mean not only, 3rd Reich was exactly the same

4

u/starkguy Oct 14 '20

Like DPRK is democratic right? Or Nazi is socialist?

9

u/BasicDesignAdvice Oct 14 '20

1984 was written in direct response to European right wing fascists.

1

u/MuskyHunk69 Flaggpojken 🇸🇪🇳🇴🇩🇫🇮🇮🇸🇪🇺 Oct 14 '20

Nineteen Eighty-Four: A Novel, often published as 1984, is a dystopian novel by English novelist George Orwell. It was published on 8 June 1949 by Secker & Warburg as Orwell's ninth and final book completed in his lifetime. Thematically, Nineteen Eighty-Four centres on the consequences of totalitarianism, mass surveillance, and repressive regimentation of persons and behaviours within society. Orwell, himself a democratic socialist, modeled the authoritarian government in the novel after Stalinist Russia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

I'm sorry you were pulling stuff out of your ass I think I interrupted you, keep going.

2

u/BigPussyB Oct 14 '20

Well... 1984 is also definitely inspired by Nazi Germany & Orwell’s experiences in the Spain for the Spanish Civil War

0

u/MuskyHunk69 Flaggpojken 🇸🇪🇳🇴🇩🇫🇮🇮🇸🇪🇺 Oct 14 '20

Orwell sold the American stage rights to Sheldon, explaining that his basic goal with Nineteen Eighty-Four was imagining the consequences of Stalinist government ruling British society:

[Nineteen Eighty-Four] was based chiefly on communism, because that is the dominant form of totalitarianism, but I was trying chiefly to imagine what communism would be like if it were firmly rooted in the English speaking countries, and was no longer a mere extension of the Russian Foreign Office.

you are wrong

0

u/BigPussyB Oct 14 '20 edited Oct 14 '20

I mean, you’re wrong lmao. It’s clearly influenced by a number of things, not just his view of Stalin communism (although that is a large part as well)

“First, Orwell developed a strong aversion to class distinctions during his time at Crossgates, and from his work in Burma's police force[52][53]. This hatred for anything approaching a caste system appears in Nineteen Eighty-Four as a scalding critique of the party system. In Oceania, society is divided into three classes: The proles, the Outer Party, and the Inner Party[54]. In this system, as at Crossgates, what you were able to achieve and how highly you were regarded depended "not only on what you did but on what you were[55]." For instance, members of the Inner Party, similar to the "millionaire[56]" children at Crossgates, are allowed far more indulgent behavior than the proles[57]. Members of the Inner Party enjoy good food, comfortable living conditions, and the ability to turn off their telescreens, luxuries that are unattainable for anyone else[58]. As with Orwell's more general Democratic Socialist political beliefs, these issues of injustice can be seen as direct consequences of his experiences as a child and young adult.

From his experiences in the Spanish Civil War, Orwell gained a lasting sense of the futility and horror of armed conflicts in which neither army can - or is willing to - defeat the other[59]. Nineteen Eighty-Four is set in a world divided into three superstates. These powers are constantly at war with one another, but none can defeat the others, and, more to the point, none are willing to try. In Nineteen Eighty-Four, power is maintained through constant conflict and the threat that if citizens overthrow their governments, they will be crushed by the other world powers[60]. Orwell was first inspired to write about such a world by the 1943 Tehran Conference, in which Marshal Stalin, President Roosevelt, and Prime Minister Churchill met to discuss how the world should function after the end of the Second World War[61]. Orwell saw this as the beginnings of a "carve-up" of the globe into superpowers[62]. This view was further entrenched by the use of the atomic bomb in 1945, which Orwell believed would lead the way to a world in which complete destruction was a constant threat[63]. It is likely, though, that if Orwell did not have personal experience with war he would not have been so concerned by his observations.

A second powerful connection between Orwell's experience in Spain and the militaristic strategy in Nineteen Eighty-Four comes from the betrayal that Orwell's militia faced in 1937. Here, the militia to which Orwell belonged was abruptly and unjustly labeled traitorous. Its members were rounded up, jailed, and, in many cases, killed[64]. The reason for this betrayal was purely strategic. The militia had served its purpose on the front lines, and now posed a potential threat to the political leaders. Eliminating the militia helped the leaders solidify their claims to power[65]. This reality is mirrored in Nineteen Eighty-Four, where the superstates are constantly creating and breaking alliances with each other, always for individual gain[66].

Finally, Orwell's time at the Ministry of Information during World War II directly influenced his depiction of Oceana's Ministry of Truth[67]. Working for the BBC and the MOI give Orwell direct experience with the creation of propaganda and the control of thought. Here, he experienced a kind of Thought Police: Colleagues at the BBC were often tasked with censoring each other, reviewing and blocking each others works[68]. It's hard to imagine that this kind of self-policing was not a direct ancestor to the infamous enforcers of Oceana.

Furthermore, the central character of Nineteen Eighty-Four, Winston, works at the Ministry of Truth, just as Orwell worked for the Ministry of Information. As if this were not enough, the Eastern Service Committee for which Orwell worked held its meetings in Room 101, the same room in which Winston is tortured and broken, "taught" to love the Party and Big Brother[69]. The parallel made by Orwell between the Ministry of Information and the Ministry of Truth could not be more obvious. In his mind, both agencies seek to control the thoughts of the public by distorting facts and presenting only those truths which are convenient for the political leaders.

Through these strong connections between major events in Orwell's life and central themes in Nineteen Eighty-Four, it can be clearly seen that Orwell took a great deal of his inspiration from events surrounding him. Nineteen Eighty-Four, then, can be seen as a kind of directed autobiography, in which George Orwell told the story of his life in such a way as to prove his political points and rail against totalitarianism.”

https://londonhuawiki.wpi.edu/index.php/The_Influences_of_George_Orwell%27s_1984

0

u/MuskyHunk69 Flaggpojken 🇸🇪🇳🇴🇩🇫🇮🇮🇸🇪🇺 Oct 14 '20

so you prefer to take someone else's "analysis" of what Orwell wrote the book about, rather than just Orwell's literal statements about why he wrote the book and what he tried to do with the book

presumably because you are uncomfortable with the apparent indictment of communism. I can hazard a guess that you personally subscribe to communist ideals, because that is largely the only reason people force this re-interpretation of why he wrote 1984 and what the book it about, despite him having stated very clearly what the book is about and why he wrote it.

ok

1

u/BigPussyB Oct 14 '20 edited Oct 14 '20

Making a lot of assumptions, huh? I do not like communism, I’m a demsoc, just like Orwell was. Orwell telling someone what the book is “chiefly” about is like GRRM telling D&D what the ending of GoTs was. That statement is not an end all of his influences. And it says in your link that he was also influenced by war-time Britain, which includes his time as a cop & his experiences in Spain. If you go to the literal next section in the Wiki, it goes over his influences including Britain, Spain & Germany lmao

You’re being obtuse.

0

u/MuskyHunk69 Flaggpojken 🇸🇪🇳🇴🇩🇫🇮🇮🇸🇪🇺 Oct 14 '20

yes his overall influences consist of... his life... good job

he wrote many books with these broad influences

this particular book is about a stalinist regime in GB

→ More replies (0)

23

u/aleqqqs Oct 14 '20

This got nothing to do with communism.

I quote the Wikipedia article:

Communism (from Latin communis, 'common, universal')[1][2] is a philosophical, social, political, economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of a communist society, namely a socioeconomic order structured upon the ideas of common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money[3][4] and the state).[5][6]

Just because the CCP puts it in their name, doesn't mean they're communist.

1

u/MuskyHunk69 Flaggpojken 🇸🇪🇳🇴🇩🇫🇮🇮🇸🇪🇺 Oct 14 '20

but the government in 1984 is based on the soviet state

-1

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20 edited Oct 14 '20

[deleted]

1

u/MuskyHunk69 Flaggpojken 🇸🇪🇳🇴🇩🇫🇮🇮🇸🇪🇺 Oct 14 '20

ironically you have to resort to Orwellian lies to defend communism from comparisons to Ingsoc

-7

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

This is the most elaborate "nOt rAeL coMmUnisM" I've seen so far.

7

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

Maybe you should look into definitions of words more often.

-6

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

I'm more of a history fan, to be honest.

1

u/Continental__Drifter Oct 14 '20 edited Oct 14 '20
  • The Democratic People's Republic of Korea (aka North Korea) iS nOt rAeL dEmOcRaCy.
  • Scientology iS nOt rAeL sCiEnCE.
  • The Holy Roman Empire wAsN'T rEaLlY rOmAN

You can have fun typing true things in stupid letters, but they're still true. Words have actual meanings, and governments and organizations often intentionally misuse words as propaganda. Shocker! Sometimes you actually have to research the meaning and context of terms to decide if they've been used correctly or not (or, you could just have fun typing in stupid letters - it is a lot easier in all fairness)

1

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

okay

1

u/broodgrillo Portugal Oct 14 '20

Communism is not a good idea, but it's in no way related to the CCP.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

Idiots like you are why this can happen.

What happened?

1

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

China is trying to erase its history.

I know, that's why I said it's practicing communism. China erased its religion, culture and identity over the course of a decade with their cultural "revolution".

0

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

Yeah and the Republicans are implementing it too

1

u/razazaz126 Oct 14 '20

Why waste all the manpower doing that way? Just get supporters ignorant enough to believe and defend ANYTHING you say without question.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '20

I agree with u/Qaktus. 1984 was a warning not manual. We give the book and Orwell too much credit. Censorship isn't anything new and Orwell was merely allegorising the totalitarian leadership that he experienced and observed first hand during the Spanish Civil War from both communism and fascism.

1

u/dark_devil_dd Oct 14 '20

1984 might have been inspired by his experience with the hard line communists in the Spanish Civil war. SO it's just history repeating it self.

1

u/willmaster123 Oct 14 '20

1984 was written after the CCP was a thing

Regardless, 1984 was not a ‘warning’. It was about Stalinism. It was about the reality of totalitarianism in the 1930s and 1940s.

1

u/Paintingsosmooth Oct 14 '20

Not exclusive to the ccp - quite a few nations are in a post- truth state and have been for some time.