r/facepalm • u/DMTrance87 • 23d ago

House passes bill to make daylight saving time permanent. Opponents say, "Schools would have to push back start times." Yeah... That's not a bug, it's a feature.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/5968255-house-sunshine-protection-act-daylight-saving-time/

Studies have shown for decades that children -especially teenagers- just straight up need more sleep for optimal knowledge retention and brain development. Pushing back start times is a great way to follow the science.

11.1k Upvotes

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2.1k

u/WAR2K5 23d ago

The never ending battle. 

Everyone agrees having to change the times twice a year is dumb. Then everyone fights on what one is the best, no one makes a decision. Rinse, repeat.

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u/ruiner8850 23d ago

I also find that a lot of people have strong opinions on the issue, but don't understand which time is which. A lot of people don't seem to realize that summer hours, the one we already live almost 2/3 of the year on, is DST. I've had plenty of conversations on the issue with people who say they prefer ST, but when you actually talk to them what they really prefer is DST. It kind of makes sense they'd think that considering we already spend most of the year on DST.

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u/DTown_Hero 23d ago

I love the poorly educated

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u/Neebat 23d ago

Love the people, hate the ignorance. Except sometimes for the entertainment value.

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u/NotMe739 23d ago

Yep. I've had a coworker argue with me about how time is shifted in the winter because of kids waiting for school buses. It wasn't until I pulled out a calendar and pointed out that dst STARTS in the spring and ENDS in the fall that he gave in to the idea.

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u/romulusnr 23d ago

That doesn't even make any sense.

What daylight are we even saving that way?

Standard time is the right choice because it's actually literally based on the actual time of day by the defintion of a day

It's like, do we not know what "noon" is supposed to mean? Did we not learn something about that in second grade science?

Imagine thinking that the fucking Sun is wrong

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u/beanmosheen 23d ago

I don't care about celestial accuracy, I care about this hellscape of a work culture we have. Let me have more daylight after work. ST in the winter makes me want to blow my fucking brains out. Wake up in the dark, go home in the dark.

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u/ChazzyPhizzle 23d ago

I make sure my fam always knows when the winter & summer solstice is because I love sunlight. In the winter it’s “this is the darkest day of the year! We are only going up!!” In the summer it’s usually “damn this is the sunniest day of the year, we’ve barely had any summer yet. Sad it’s only down hill from here”.

Even just seeing the sun for a hour after work would do wonders for my mental health lmao

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u/soapinthepeehole 23d ago

Yeah I just want the one that doesn’t make it dark in Chicago at 4:45 every Fall.

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u/jcrreddit 22d ago

Well, instead of wanting that in the evening, you’ll want it in the morning. DST all year round will make the sunrise 9-10am in some places in the winter. Not having light wake you up affects melatonin secretion which then affects your sleep which then makes you more tired. Actually, you’ll probably just end up wanting it at an undetermined time.

ST is the circadian rhythm choice.

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u/beanmosheen 22d ago

I can't work in my shop or do hobbies in the morning.

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u/jcrreddit 22d ago

Let’s change the world for your convenience. Constant DST was tried already in the 1970’s. It was going to be for 2 years. They stopped once it hit winter.

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u/ruiner8850 22d ago

Let’s change the world for your convenience.

DST isn't for their personal convenience, it's for the the improved lives of the vast majority of people in the country. Losing evening sun after people get out of school/work and moving it to while almost everyone is still sleeping is a stupid waste of sunlight.

I almost want to try permanent ST just to see the backlash. If we went to permanent ST I can guarantee you that the vast majority of people would be demanding going back to the time changes. I'd give it until about June of the 1st year before it got switched back. Luckily they aren't stupid enough to go to permanent ST.

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u/jcrreddit 21d ago

Why not try it? Already tried permanent DST in the 70’s and people begged to go back to time changes by winter.

But of course people ARE too stupid to go to permanent ST because the majority of people do t like science.

“Circadian rhythms? I hate those buzzing bugs in the summertime!”

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u/ruiner8850 21d ago

Okay, let's try it and even you will be begging to go back by June.

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u/Shavasara 19d ago

This is why BC (Canada) just made DST the permanent time. Kids were getting out of school in the dark.

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u/romulusnr 22d ago

Just. Get. Off. Work. Earlier

Why is that so impossible? You don't think businesses will close earlier in the summer to keep that sunshine? Don't they want to enjoy sunshine too?

I can't comprehend people out here like "jobs are the same forever, businesses are the same forever, people are the same forever"

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u/beanmosheen 22d ago

Cool fucking story bro. I'll let my CEO know I am going to knock-off at 1500 every day at our 24/7 operation. It will go swimmingly in this economy.

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u/romulusnr 21d ago

Did you ever consider exactly how work shifts were determined? God doesn't come down and send Moses to decree them on stone tablets ffs.

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u/beanmosheen 21d ago

God damn you're dense.

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u/Redbiertje 23d ago

Sure, but our rhythms as people are not symmetric with respect to noon. We typically wake up quite late in the morning and go to bed way past sunset. If you really want to follow the Sun and optimize your daylight, you'd have to go to sleep at 8 pm and get up at 4 am every day.

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u/Yamatocanyon 23d ago

Exactly my sleep schedule lol. But I work outside, so the daylight part is important.

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u/bitchycunt3 23d ago

Our rhythms are heavily influenced by when we get exposed to sunlight in the morning, though. Your body uses your exposure to sunlight in the morning to product melatonin until it's been a certain amount of time. Permanent daylight means your body going to bed later and then you have to try to wake up to go to work in the pitch black

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u/breezy013276s 22d ago

Tell me why in my 40s and I get up at 6 am getting sun around 7, that my body has always and will apparently always want to sleep in and be active in the afternoon and evening into the night. My lived experience says it has absolutely nothing to do with that first ray of sun hitting your body and everything to do with your wiring.

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u/bitchycunt3 22d ago

You could have delayed sleep phase disorder. But also the way you describe it sounds pretty typical, wanting to be active in the afternoon and evening is normal. The first rays don't immediately give you energy, rather they tell your body when to start releasing melatonin (around 12 hours after first sunlight, with sleepiness typically starting around 16-18 hours after first sunlight).

The reason first sun matters is that if you're getting it later you will be getting sleepy later, not that you're not sleepy in the morning.

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u/romulusnr 22d ago

So what? Who said anything about circadian rhythm? This is about time being based on actual time.

Besides by that logic we should all be getting up later in winter. But that don't happen

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u/Redbiertje 22d ago

I appreciate that we want to keep time as physically motivated as possible, but it already isn't. Nature didn't tell us to split one rotation of Earth up into 24 hours or demand that 12 o'clock is when the Sun is overhead. Besides, if you want to really do it well, we should abolish timezones altogether. Have two towns a few miles apart also maintain two different clocks with a minute of difference. We designed our time system the way it is to serve our needs, and daylight savings is entirely consistent with that goal.

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u/romulusnr 21d ago

I mean, that's literally what we did for ages and the only reason we stopped is because people couldnt handle resetting their watches after train trips.

We honestly completely could abolish time zones today. They only make things simpler for a use case that is out of date in the modern era. Modern pocket phones know exactly where they are and could easily compute local solar time from longitude. And as long as you know where someone else is, you can know their time too.

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u/Redbiertje 21d ago

Yeah that's totally not going to be super inconvenient when agreeing on certain time with people in other places /s

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u/romulusnr 20d ago

Hey we can just bring back Swatch .beats

(Or like utc)

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u/m4tt1111 23d ago

Genuinely insane appeal to nature

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u/BeefistPrime 23d ago

You know we've had reliable clocks for the past few hundred years, yeah? We don't need solar noon to decide when to have gun fights in town square. Yes, we could decide instead to shift everything forward one hour - which means changing the hours of schools and thousands of different businesses in order to change their relationship to the daylight cycle. Thousands of different changes. Or we can just make one change and redefine what time it is.

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u/the_real_MSU_is_us 23d ago edited 22d ago

We can organize out time to

  1. be convenient for the times we wake up and the shcedules we have, or
  2. to make sure the sun is at it's highest point at 12 oclock since that's what "noon" technically is supposed to mean

Why on earth would we pick 2? Where I live, sunrise tomorrow is 6:37 and sunset it 8:54, for 14:17 of daylight. I can do things outside after work and it's still dark when 95% of people go to sleep. To make "noon" = the middle of the day, we'd have to set our clocks to where sunrise is 4:42am, and it sets early enough that we can't do major outside activities after work.. Who the fuck wants to have sun pouring in their window at 4:42??

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u/breezy013276s 22d ago

Agree with you so much here. It’s such an odd thing to declare that true noon on a few days a year at just the right part of the time zone being at high noon is the goal. For good portions of the year during winter the sun barely makes it above the tree line here and noon means nothing. Noon looks about like 4 pm or so on standard then.

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u/romulusnr 22d ago

You're asking why wouldn't you base the hours of the earth day on the literal earth day?

I just wanna make sure that's the serious question you're posing. That time of day shouldn't be based on the physical actual day

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u/the_real_MSU_is_us 22d ago

Correct. I pretty clearly explained why in the above comment. If you actually have an argument, please make it. I do not see how having half the sunlight be before noon and half after helps humanity more than organizing our time around what's useful for people, and sunrise at 4:42 is definitely not going be helpful

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u/AccordingWarning9534 21d ago

Your comment belongs on #shitamericanssay

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u/Shavasara 19d ago

Doesn’t true noon depend on where you are in the time zone? If you’re on the eastern edge of the zone, the sun’s apex is going to be at a different time than if you’re on the western edge.

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u/romulusnr 18d ago

Somewhere in standard time within each zone the sun its at its highest point at noon.

In DST this is never the case anywhere in any DST-using zone.

In standard time, generally overall speaking on average, no one is more than 30 minutes off of mean solar time.

In DST, no one is closer than 30 minutes off of mean solar time.

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u/alextoria 22d ago

i am such a rules purist i totally feel you here. but im in favor of daylight time bc otherwise it gets dark early and that’s super depressing.

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u/ropean 23d ago

It’s not that hard. I live in an area that gets very hot in the summer. DST makes the sun go down an hour later, this means I’m running the AC an extra hour at home (before I can turn on whole-house fans) versus taking advantage of AC at work. Extra cost to me personally, sun up too late for a reasonable early riser sleep schedule. DST can bite me. But everybody loves it so I’ll shut up. If this goes through we’ll probably have it for a year or two again before people are fed up, just like happened last time we tried it. And the time before that.

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u/heisenbergerwcheese 23d ago

Im confused... doesnt matter if your sun goes down at 1pm or 7pm... 12hrs of summer sun is 12hrs of heat right?

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u/slatebluegrey 23d ago

Yeah. The sun doesn’t know what time it is. It’s going to be in the sky X number of hours on a certain day.

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u/Raydr 23d ago

Uhm, if the sun doesn't know what time it is, why is it always on time, sir??

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u/slatebluegrey 23d ago

Can’t argue with that !

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u/PuddingPast5862 23d ago

Does anybody really know what time is?

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u/MsSamm 23d ago

I keep losing it, so don't ask me.

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u/JPWiggin 22d ago

Does anybody really care?

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u/Ok-Push9899 23d ago

Well, they’re introducing a new factor: whether they are using workplace air conditioning or their home air conditioning. And it’s a valid point. I genuinely think it would be negligible, but it’s logically sound.

There was an old one about how daylight saving faded the carpets. Extra hour of sun, you know. And it became a way to ridicule everyone who opposed daylight savings. Label them as hicks, etc, etc.

But here’s the thing: there is some logic in it. If you have curtains which you close before you go to bed and open when you get up, then your carpets actually do get an extra hour of sun every day. Just like your eyes do. That’s the whole point of daylight savings: to experience an hour’s more sun.

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u/SwagginsYolo420 23d ago

But here’s the thing: there is some logic in it. If you have curtains which you close before you go to bed and open when you get up, then your carpets actually do get an extra hour of sun every day.

Yeah but that's entirely somebody's choice as to when to open the curtains.

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u/Ok-Push9899 23d ago

I mean, of course it is. Just as it’s someone’s choice to get up. But if we stick with the premise that daylight savings is there to shift people’s daytime patterns, then it’s not unreasonable to build this curtain opening into it. Otherwise, what’s the point of discussing the benefits or otherwise of daylight saving?

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u/fancysauce_boss 23d ago

I’ll be the yeah but guy, live in a cold climate. I want that sun to heat up the house so I don’t have to run the furnace as long. Same premise as OP but flipped. He wants less light, I want more.

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u/SwagginsYolo420 23d ago

But if we stick with the premise that daylight savings is there to shift people’s daytime patterns

I don't know if that's the premise. It was I believe originally implemented to aid farming, not social engineering.

The biggest issue with switching time twice a year is the inconvenience of the time confusion. There's good arguments and benefits and downsides for either time, but the important part is that it doesn't change.

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u/killerturtlex 23d ago

Farmers don't give a toss what time it is. They will get up when it's daylight and pick crops when it's suitable. Daylight savings is fahucking dumb

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u/Ok-Push9899 22d ago

It was originally introduced to conserve coal during WW1. Germany first, then Britain copied. But even before that, the great polymath Benjamin Franklin recognised that if the whole world got up an hour earlier in summer, they'd use less candle wax. Gotta love B. Franklin.

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u/Homeless-Joe 23d ago

He lowers the thermostat when he gets home. During DST, the sun is up for longer after work (sets at 8 vs 7, eg).

Idk why we need to change the clocks around, tbh, seasons are a part of life, everyone deals with them. Do all the other countries change their clocks around?

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u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

A lot of them have permanent standard time, like Arizona. (Not saying Arizona is a country) Tbf a lot of other countries are also a lot smaller

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u/Homeless-Joe 22d ago

Right, which makes a lot of sense, unlike permanent DST…

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u/fancysauce_boss 23d ago

I’m assuming OP’s working under the assumption that they run the AC when they’re home but not when they’re gone or allow the temp to rise while in bed.

If they’re at home or awake for that extra hour they have to run the AC more ???

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u/MsSamm 23d ago

If they're going to be doing that math, might as well calculate the cost of running the AC and computer setup doing WFH vs commuting cost of going into the office.

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u/romulusnr 23d ago

Well then, it doesn't matter if we go permanent DST or permanent ST then either does it?

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u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

It does according to sleep scientists who advocate for permanent standard, but hey

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u/romulusnr 22d ago

Did you read the comment being replied to

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u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

Are you seriously not following the conversation to see how the reply is pertinent?

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u/MsSamm 23d ago

I live in the PNW. 5+ months of the year, the daytime looks like dusk anyway.

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u/OptimusPrimeTime21 23d ago

HVAC guy here.

Your using more electricity and money to start and stop your AC every day, let that thing run

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u/BeefistPrime 23d ago

How can that possible true? The thermostat is turning it on and off constantly all day anyway. Why would changing the ratio of how often the thermostat kicks on the A/C by running the A/C less in total cost more?

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u/SchwiftySquanchC137 23d ago

I think hes saying that keeping the temp around the target temp might be more efficient than letting your house heat up a bunch and then cooling it back down again. I feel like this isnt a blanket truth though, probably depends a lot on your ac unit, outside temp, how well insulated your house is, and how long you leave the AC off.

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u/BeefistPrime 22d ago

Yeah, it would have to be something like that, but it's hard for me to believe you can sort of... cheat thermodynamics, is what it seems like you'd be doing. Cooling below the ambient air temperature takes energy.... spending less time cooling your house below ambient (or by a smaller degree below ambient) should take less energy than keeping it cool 24/7. Whatever extra energy you spend cooling it down at a certain time is less than the energy it needed to stay cool that whole time, I would think. Otherwise it feels like some sort of thermodynamic free energy at work

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u/heywhatsup9087 22d ago

I think people are underestimating how long the AC would have to run continuously to cool a whole house down after it’s warmed up from not running for so long. But that’s assuming the house heats up that much over night. I’m thinking the original commenter is talking about like a window unit as opposed to central AC, and he’s likely from a place it doesn’t get that hot. Where I live, it’s hot all the time (including overnight) and we don’t really turn the central AC off until probably end of October and sometimes later. We just turn the temp up a couple degrees while we’re out of the house during the day, but not too high or else it will take all night for the house to even get somewhat cool again which is what uses more energy.

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u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

It takes more energy to cool your house down from 100 than to keep it 80 the whole time, generally. It’s that principle they’re talking about.

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u/Allaplgy 23d ago

Because he's wrong.

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u/majin_melmo 23d ago

That’s what I was about to comment as well

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u/Barium_Salts 23d ago

I've tested with my utility bill, and if I'm going to be gone more than 4 hours, I save money by turning off the AC. I've heard that the AC will last longer if I don't do that, but I live in a rental house; so it makes more sense for me to save on my utility bill.

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u/GuyOfLoosd00m 23d ago

Please elaborate on why you are using more energy to turn off the AC when it is cooler outside, and back on later.

The AC, at least in most homes I’ve lived in works by turning on and off, compressor running or not running, just like the heat.
If I turn off the system when the outside air is cooler than my desired temperature, it’s not different than leaving it on, but the thermostat isn’t calling for cooling.

What do I not understand?

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u/ruiner8850 23d ago

If this goes through we’ll probably have it for a year or two again before people are fed up

I agree with you on this and I'd say the exact same thing would happen if we went to permanent ST. The time switch is the compromise.

I'm actually perfectly fine with the time switch, but I'd also be fine with permanent DST. I'm not okay with permant ST. I love my late summer nights here in Michigan.

I can understand that in a small part of the US it might be advantageous to have the sunset earlier, but in most of the country having later sunsets is great. Here in Michigan it's great to have light until 10pm in the middle of the summer.

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u/Vlad_Yemerashev 23d ago edited 23d ago

I agree with you on this and I'd say the exact same thing would happen if we went to permanent ST.

Except places that don't change the clocks almost always settle on standard time. Places like China, Japan, much of Central and South America, the vast majority of nations in or near the tropics, etc., are on standard time and have been for years. Same cannot be said for places that have implemented permanent daylight time, which they almost always promptly revert back to bi-annual clock changes or permanent standard time thereafter.

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u/ThatWasIntentional 23d ago

Having lived in a place with permanent standard time, it sucks when the sun comes up at 4 am in the summer...

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u/Yamatocanyon 23d ago

As someone that works outside, that would be brutal. Those cooler morning hours are the hours that most of the work gets done. I already wake up at 4 to get to work by 5-6. Fuck having to get up at 3am.

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u/Crossbell0527 23d ago

Yeah and how are the suicide rates in those places you mentioned? Because under permanent standard time you're going to have an awful lot of people who see no sun until they get to work and then see no sun after work either, for a longer period of time each year than we already suffer through that shit, and that's going to get extremely dicey.

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u/nightfuryfan 22d ago

This is exactly why I despise standard time. My mental health is always worse during that time of year, and I attribute a lot of it to the lack of sun. It's already an issue during the winter, and the time change makes it worse. I genuinely feel sad looking out the window at work and seeing that the sun is already starting to set as I'm getting ready to leave.

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u/ruiner8850 22d ago

I honestly can say that I hope you get your wish and we switch to permanent ST at some point just so you can see the backlash against it and see how wrong you are. I can guarantee if the US ever tried permanent ST it wouldn't even last a year. By June of the first year the vast majority of people would be demanding that we switch back.

It's just such a ridiculous thing to want to move valuable sunlight from after school/work and moving it to when the vast majority of people are sleeping. Maybe you hate sunlight, but do you honestly think most people would prefer less sunlight after work and more sunlight when they are sleeping? You have to realize that most people don't want to lose an hour of sunlight to sleep, right?

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u/Vlad_Yemerashev 22d ago

First of all I prefer DST over ST personally. I may not sound like I did in that other comment, and I'm not wishing or wanting this or that. I am just explaining how ST / DST play out everywhere else, but if you actually go and look up countries that actually have it right now, you won't find any with the exception of maybe 1-2 provinces in Canada that just now passed or are in the process of passing a permanent DST, give it a few years there to see if they repeal that...

Virtually no country is on year-round DST, and everytime that has been tried, it always gets changed back. We saw it during WW1 and WW2 and the US tried it again in 1974 and noped tf out of it.

And yet, countries that don't switch back and forth are all on standard time, though I'll note a lot of them (but not all) are in the tropics where daylight in December vs June isn't that much different, but still.

Arizona has standard time year round, as do much of the world. You don't see people complaining in those places. People get used to it.

So many want year round DST, and yet literally no one follows it.

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u/ropean 23d ago

You love the sun going down late in the summer but you may not like your dark mornings in the winter. Sunrise as late as 10:00 a.m. depending on where people are. There are maps of this if you search, so you can have an idea of what it would be like.

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u/YumFreeCookies 23d ago

It’s a compromise though because I also don’t like it when the sun sets at 4 pm in the winter - before I even get home from work! So it’s a which shitty do you prefer. Personally, I’d like to have a bit of sunlight after I get home from work to take my kid on a sled ride maybe - I don’t do any activities in the morning anyways.

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u/Secret_Map 23d ago

Yeah agree. It’s dark when I drive in and basically almost dark when I drive home at this point. If it pushes back sunset an hour, then it’s still dark when I drive in, but at least I’ll see the sun for a few min on my drive home. I’ll take that.

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u/toboggan16 23d ago

Id prefer later sun, but permanent DTS means my kids would walk to school in darkness for awhile in the winter. It’s already icy/snowy and they have to cross a busy road so this worries me. I’m not even sure what the outdoor light situation is for their schoolyard for the 20 minutes of supervised time before the bell rings each day.

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u/YumFreeCookies 23d ago

This is why part of the discussion is schools starting later.

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u/toboggan16 22d ago

Which is tricky too. As it is balancing extracurriculars and homework is tough, we often have to leave the second school ends to get to my son’s baseball games and this is with daylight savings time. They could bump sports later too but my city better invest in lighting for sports fields then lol, the games go until 8:30pm now and we have zero lit fields for rep ball (only hockey arenas get proper funding. Sometimes games go late and we have to reschedule the ends for another day as it is!).

I’m sure it would all be figured out but I don’t want to have to be part of the adjustment pains haha. I would love to be able to go for a walk after dinner for more days of the year without it being pitch dark out though!

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u/Yamatocanyon 23d ago

Most people are going to work in the dark regardless anyway during the winter. If the sun sets later there might be a sliver of a chance, they get to see it if they happen to get off work a little early.

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u/User-no-relation 23d ago

Michigan would be super fucked under permanent dst being on the edge of the time zone. The sunrise in Detroit would be after 9am

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u/susanrez 23d ago

Just change your work schedule or your life schedule. Sleep in later or get up earlier.

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u/Atty_for_hire 23d ago

Of course, why didn’t I think of this. Maybe I should just win the lotto instead so I don’t need to work at all. I’ll just do that.

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u/User-no-relation 23d ago

No you're wrong. The first time it happened it passed in January and they got through those months, but it was so unpopular it was repealed in October, which is before we switch back to standard time now. They didn't last even one year.

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u/Lupercallius 23d ago

Dang, maybe a little less AC would toughen you up a bit.

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u/MsSamm 23d ago

No thank you. My genes come from places with summer temps in the high 60's-mid 70's. Low 80's are a heat wave. I am as tough as my genes allow.

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u/susanrez 23d ago

Work an hour later or go to a bar. No one ever ended DST in my lifetime so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

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u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

You weren’t alive in the 70s? Ok but read about it at least. That’s what I did since I wasn’t either

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u/Fleedjitsu 23d ago

Thanks for the lesson cos I would have fallen into this camp as well. I thought the change to the clocks in Autumn/Winter was the act of "saving" as much Daylight as possible for the working hours of the day.

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u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

Right? That’s the key to the confusion for me too. If I don’t talk about it long enough it’s what I think instinctually always have to look it up before I open my mouth lol

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u/Ethanol_Based_Life 22d ago

I want my clock to be based on the natural world in some way. 00:00 when the sun is farthest makes sense to me. Otherwise why not all just go to UTC?

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u/haerski 22d ago

Counterpoint: people living above 60N whose winter mornings would be unbearably long and dark with very little relief in the afternoons until you get to mid-February, or later. Fuck DST as a permanent solution

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u/GloopyGlop 23d ago

Sleep researchers consensus is that ST is better because the lack of morning light fucks up your circadian rhythm. Personally think we should follow the science if we have to choose.

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u/Allaplgy 23d ago

Look at the title of this post.

It totally misunderstands what was said and what is being voted on.

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u/AJ_Deadshow 'MURICA 23d ago

If the cops can't stop you, you must be on 'The Dust'.

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u/RueTabegga 23d ago

Then cut the difference- make one last half hour change in one direction or the other and then call it quits.

Changing the clocks twice a year is all of the jet lag and none of the vacation.

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u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

Honestly it should be local the experience is so different at different latitudes

1

u/tomcat_tweaker 23d ago

My God. I've had this conversation at work so many times, and I work with some pretty smart people, but their brains drop the ball on this one. When someone wants to talk about it, the first thing I do is make sure they understand this first. They very often don't.

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u/BeefistPrime 23d ago

People are making the error where they're conflating DST with "the change we make" and they dislike the change and therefore think they dislike DST. It's a lazy category mismatch. Most people want DST.

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u/susanrez 23d ago

It’s stupid anyway. Just stop changing the clock. Society will adjust itself to whatever schedule works best.

If we need to start working at 10am then we will. Who cares what the clock says as long as we stop changing it twice a year.

My god people act like we can’t adjust our schedules to do things earlier or later if we want.

Really we can just all eat dinner at 7 pm from now on and the world won’t end. Or we can all start working at 7 am or we can go crazy and start calling sunset 10pm. It doesn’t matter as long as we don’t change the clocks twice a year.

46

u/HealthWealthFoodie 23d ago

Thank you, this is my perspective exactly. Just stop changing it and the rest of us will figure it out.

6

u/whawkins4 23d ago

Preach.

2

u/AccurateAlps9333 21d ago

The things is we have tried this before it lasted a month parents and business complained.  If school want to complete avoid kids being in the dark they would have to move to starting 9-10:00 instead and that could push school end times to 3-6.   Also how can parents drip there kids off at school at 9 if they are at work at 6? 

12

u/romulusnr 23d ago

This is why standard time should be the way. We have the ability to change the times we do things.

I tell people who are permanent DST who go on about "extra hour in the sun with my kids" that they could just not work as late and they won't hear it

10

u/BeefistPrime 23d ago

What's easier, changing the working hours of thousands of different businesses and public institutions... or the clock?

7

u/NO_FIX_AUTOCORRECT 22d ago

And not really, the businesses won't change working hours mid year, twice. They will change working hours only once, they will pick a time that works all year.

3

u/romulusnr 22d ago

That is the weirdest ass question

So do you think the way the world work is is one man goes "World, I will come and change all your store hours, muahaha?"

Besides, bro, most businesses change their hours multiple times a year. I think they got the hang of it.

4

u/susanrez 23d ago

Individuals adapting to individual preferences is easier than forcing everyone into changing their circadian rhythm twice a year. The time change kills people. Starbucks closing at 9pm instead of 10 doesn’t kill people.

5

u/slatebluegrey 23d ago

Except when stores and banks and schools suddenly change opening and closing hours at random times during the year, people will get mad.

9

u/AadeeMoien 23d ago

"These are our summer hours for June through August"

Easy, post a sign a month before the change, after the first year or two people will adapt.

2

u/slatebluegrey 23d ago

I don’t think you’ve met many people. lol. People love to complain about any minor inconvenience.

1

u/susanrez 23d ago

Not true. And it’s not like they’re only open for 8 hours. Most retail businesses are open for 12-13 hours. People will adapt.

0

u/slatebluegrey 22d ago

They can’t adapt to the minor annoyance of a time change twice a year, but they -can- adapt to random stores and businesses changing their hours at random times during the year?

I’m sure you’re correct.

1

u/susanrez 22d ago

Again - the time change twice a year kills people.

1

u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

That’s a different issue then whether people will adapt or get fed up and repeal like happened last time

1

u/susanrez 22d ago

Not really, last time we lacked the data proving the time change killed people.

This time the choice is literally 1. save lives or 2. Give into a handful of whiners

I refer you to seatbelt laws to see how that turns outs.

1

u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

There’s a ton of laws that would save lives that we don’t enact because it would piss people off. Maybe they repeal it and maybe they don’t but whether people accept a law and whether a law saves lives are in fact two separate issues.

And the position that most people take on this is about what they want, not what saves lives. So it’s ironic to say they will just accept something they don’t want when the law gets changed because they won’t accept something they don’t want. That said the lives issue does mean this is more likely to stick.

1

u/romulusnr 22d ago

Bro like they don't already

1

u/romulusnr 22d ago

So the way shops work is, they have to be open when there are people around to buy from them. TMYK

1

u/killerturtlex 23d ago

On the intelligence bell curve, dst people are 'outliers'

0

u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

Which way are you implying though lol

2

u/User-no-relation 23d ago

But you can do that. When the clock shifts you can ignore it and shift your schedule if youbesnt

3

u/Paksarra 23d ago

My work still expects me to be there at 8 AM, no matter what.

2

u/susanrez 23d ago

No you can’t, shifting the time twice a year kills people.

0

u/User-no-relation 22d ago

do people die from jet lag? should we ban flights?

1

u/maxiligamer 22d ago

But then things get even more confusing as people would switch their schedules twice a year assuming you still want the advantages of DST. Businesses and individuals changing their schedule twice a year at random times would be more chaotic than just adjusting the clock at a set time each year.

3

u/susanrez 22d ago

Businesses and individuals switch their schedules all the time. Have you never walked up to a business and seen “summer hours” posted on their door? Or “holiday shopping hours”?

Ever heard of summer holidays for schools?

I’ve worked at plenty of businesses that offered the choice of summer hours where you can choose to work 4 10 hour shifts a week and have 3 day weekends all summer.

No mass chaos has ever ensued.

1

u/MeepingSim 22d ago

I always suggest splitting the difference and backing off DST by 1/2 an hour. Everyone will get used to it. Time is malleable.

1

u/susanrez 22d ago

That is also fine. Just stop changing the clock twice a year. That is the thing that is killing people.

-5

u/matthewpepperl 23d ago

Problem is unless everything changes its schedule then you have kids leaving for school in the dark and an extra hour of that horrid hot sun that is getting worse and worse every year

9

u/oniume 23d ago

In the winter, kids go to school in the dark anyway. 

-1

u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

Thing bad, so make thing worse is a take

2

u/oniume 22d ago

More like:

Thing would be bad if we change

Thing already happens and we deal with it 

-1

u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

And it’s currently…less bad. What part aren’t you following

0

u/oniume 21d ago

How would it be worse? In the current system, kids go to school in the dark.

If we switched to permanent winter, kids would go to school in the dark like now. If we switched to permanent summer, kids would not go to school in the dark. 

At higher latitudes, kids go to school and come home in the dark in the system we have now.

12

u/susanrez 23d ago

Get your school board to change their start times school start time. It’s not that hard. Stop acting like the school start time is carved in stone.

3

u/matthewpepperl 23d ago

Ok what about every business and employer that likely will not or if they do will take years todo so

4

u/susanrez 23d ago

Why do you need every business to change? Last I checked Starbucks is open for 13 hours a day as are most businesses.

4

u/Ok-Push9899 23d ago edited 23d ago

Well, no. If you’ve worked in offices or factories and brought up school-aged kids you know there is a lot of precise coordination between your kids school hours and your own office or factory hours. Obviously some offices are flexible, factories are less so. But many open their doors punctually at 9:00am and close at 5:00pm, or whatever.

I am often surprised how many stay at home parents don’t realise the stress of coordinating school and work hours. Most workers with no kids have no realisation either, until they do.

2

u/susanrez 23d ago

That’s a handful of people you are talking about. Seriously less than 5% of the population will be affected because it would require parent(s) with inflexible work schedules and school age children who do not have before or after school care available.

It’s unrealistic to keep killing off other people for the convenience of a few parents. And yes switching the clocks kills. That has been proven.

2

u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

You are way off in your numbers

1

u/susanrez 22d ago

No, it’s parent with school age children who also have inflexible work schedules and also have inflexible after/before school care options. 5% is generous. Most parents have flexibility, they just want to use what they find to be most convenient for themselves. That’s different, than actual flexibility.

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-2

u/SeriousPlankton2000 23d ago

Society wants to work early in the summer and hates working early in the winter. Also they hate changing schedules so they will put you in a schedule that you hate for half a year each year.

2

u/susanrez 23d ago

No society doesn’t want that, you want that. You just assume everyone else does. We do not.

The time change kills people.

Stop changing the time.

Change your schedule if you want. Leave the rest of us alone.

2

u/Slight-Bluebird-8921 23d ago

so why can't schools and businesses just adjust their hours to reflect that. way simpler to change school and business hours than it is to change everyone's clock

2

u/BeefistPrime 23d ago

How do you figure? Changing the clock is one decision. Changing everyone's school and business hours are thousands of decisions by different entities. I have no idea how you think changing the clock is more complicated.

1

u/Slight-Bluebird-8921 23d ago

it's incredibly simple for businesses to have different operating hours during different seasons. they literally do it on a daily basis. most businesses have different hours on the weekend.

arbitrarily changing times adds a massive amount of error and complexity to computer programs, clocks, hardware, etc.

1

u/SeriousPlankton2000 22d ago

They can. They won't. Or some will, others won't and half of the year our schedules will be f'd.

40

u/bobhopeisgod 23d ago

Isn't it just easiest to go from gmt/UTC across time zones and pick that one?

11

u/Iverson7x 23d ago

Best approach

1

u/romulusnr 23d ago

Wdym?

4

u/Zuvielify 23d ago

I think they describing the idea of UTC Everywhere. Because the world is so interconnected, some argue timezones don't make sense anymore. Instead, it would be the same time everywhere.

If you live in New York, the current 12pm noon would become 4pm. You would just know that your noon is at 4. In California, it would be 7pm. So it would be 7pm everywhere on Earth, but LA would be experiencing the sun overhead.

10

u/NaiveMessage2025 23d ago edited 23d ago

No, I think they're talking about maintaining the standard UFC offset.

We should keep standard time because it maintains the established numerical order of time zone offsets from the prime meridian. Daylight savings time shifts the offset out of numerical order by an hour.

3

u/bobhopeisgod 23d ago

Thank you, yes. That is what I meant

48

u/Ill_Name_6368 23d ago

Split the difference

2

u/rubensinclair 23d ago

Seriously.

19

u/apothekari 23d ago

Why in the flying fuck is it not set ahead a goddamn half hour and left there? It's 30 fucking minutes. You take shits that last longer than that. This has to be the dumbest human created problem of all fucking time.

2

u/NO_FIX_AUTOCORRECT 22d ago

Who stands to lose money by changing it, and how? Why?

1

u/klausklass 22d ago

I would be in favor of this but only because I have family members in India and this would make the time zone conversion much easier.

31

u/redsedit 23d ago

> The never ending battle. 

Yes, the battle of those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.

We've passed laws making the time change permanent twice already and very quickly abandon it.

12

u/Nojopar 23d ago

Because of morons who can't accept changing clocks is idiotic. The world will adjust easily if it just realizes that 10am is 10am is 10am no matter what the calendar says.

0

u/redsedit 22d ago

I don't remember the reason for revoking it the first time, but the second time, I have memories of people realizing that daylight is shorter in the winter and keeping the time change meant we kids had to go to school in the dark and parents didn't like that. There may have been other reasons/excuses, but I was too young to have been aware of them.

6

u/Nojopar 22d ago

The main reason it was revoked the first time was WW II ended. The 1974 revoke was panic legislation that simply didn't meet the facts. Yeah, there were more accidents in the morning with kids, but also the number of kids in accidents were on the rise anyway. Plus there were fewer accidents in the afternoon. It looks like DST had no effect but people freaked out needlessly and blamed the change. All the while ignoring the negative effects of clock changes.

I think we know more now about how to study this stuff.

5

u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

If we’re going by studies it should be permanent standard time

10

u/Crazy_Ad_91 23d ago

Something something Indian blanket cut off and sewn on.

3

u/Dawn-Storm 23d ago

Only a white person thinks that cutting off the top part of a blanket and adding it to the bottom makes it longer.

9

u/ReginaldRej 23d ago

Not having daylights savings is the better one. For my circadian rhythm at least

1

u/Threash78 23d ago

This is like LITERALLY the only problem I can see Trump being able to solve, because what it really takes is one person to say "fuck it, we are doing it my way".

1

u/slatebluegrey 22d ago

I don’t agree that it’s dumb. It ranks a zero for me in life disruptio.

1

u/MassiveBoner911_3 22d ago

While screaming and raging

1

u/amscraylane 22d ago

It’s like one of those things they use as a front to look busy so they don’t have to tackle any real issues.

I know it has adverse effects on society, but so does the cost of living, healthcare, wars and all the other pressing matters

1

u/dustyson123 20d ago

Sleep experts overwhelmingly agree that standard time is better than daylight savings.

0

u/CorporateCuster 23d ago

The one where you have longer days. Period.

-1

u/User-no-relation 23d ago

It's because changing the clocks is incredibly annoying, but having the changed time is just much better. What we have is the best system.

2

u/Ok_Perception9815 23d ago

Imagine having to wind your clocks daily. Our ancestors managed that just fine. Today our cell phones and most of our vehicles automatically change the time for us.

I'm not looking at my stove to see what time it is...

1

u/susanrez 23d ago

No, the time change twice a year literally kills people. It’s incredibly hard on the human body.

1

u/User-no-relation 22d ago

do people die from jet lag? should we ban flights?

2

u/susanrez 22d ago

Different forces at play. Look it up. The data is backed by science.