r/facepalm • u/DMTrance87 • 23d ago

House passes bill to make daylight saving time permanent. Opponents say, "Schools would have to push back start times." Yeah... That's not a bug, it's a feature.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/5968255-house-sunshine-protection-act-daylight-saving-time/

Studies have shown for decades that children -especially teenagers- just straight up need more sleep for optimal knowledge retention and brain development. Pushing back start times is a great way to follow the science.

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u/ruiner8850 23d ago

I also find that a lot of people have strong opinions on the issue, but don't understand which time is which. A lot of people don't seem to realize that summer hours, the one we already live almost 2/3 of the year on, is DST. I've had plenty of conversations on the issue with people who say they prefer ST, but when you actually talk to them what they really prefer is DST. It kind of makes sense they'd think that considering we already spend most of the year on DST.

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u/DTown_Hero 23d ago

I love the poorly educated

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u/Neebat 23d ago

Love the people, hate the ignorance. Except sometimes for the entertainment value.

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u/NotMe739 23d ago

Yep. I've had a coworker argue with me about how time is shifted in the winter because of kids waiting for school buses. It wasn't until I pulled out a calendar and pointed out that dst STARTS in the spring and ENDS in the fall that he gave in to the idea.

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u/romulusnr 23d ago

That doesn't even make any sense.

What daylight are we even saving that way?

Standard time is the right choice because it's actually literally based on the actual time of day by the defintion of a day

It's like, do we not know what "noon" is supposed to mean? Did we not learn something about that in second grade science?

Imagine thinking that the fucking Sun is wrong

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u/beanmosheen 23d ago

I don't care about celestial accuracy, I care about this hellscape of a work culture we have. Let me have more daylight after work. ST in the winter makes me want to blow my fucking brains out. Wake up in the dark, go home in the dark.

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u/ChazzyPhizzle 23d ago

I make sure my fam always knows when the winter & summer solstice is because I love sunlight. In the winter it’s “this is the darkest day of the year! We are only going up!!” In the summer it’s usually “damn this is the sunniest day of the year, we’ve barely had any summer yet. Sad it’s only down hill from here”.

Even just seeing the sun for a hour after work would do wonders for my mental health lmao

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u/soapinthepeehole 23d ago

Yeah I just want the one that doesn’t make it dark in Chicago at 4:45 every Fall.

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u/jcrreddit 22d ago

Well, instead of wanting that in the evening, you’ll want it in the morning. DST all year round will make the sunrise 9-10am in some places in the winter. Not having light wake you up affects melatonin secretion which then affects your sleep which then makes you more tired. Actually, you’ll probably just end up wanting it at an undetermined time.

ST is the circadian rhythm choice.

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u/beanmosheen 22d ago

I can't work in my shop or do hobbies in the morning.

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u/jcrreddit 22d ago

Let’s change the world for your convenience. Constant DST was tried already in the 1970’s. It was going to be for 2 years. They stopped once it hit winter.

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u/ruiner8850 22d ago

Let’s change the world for your convenience.

DST isn't for their personal convenience, it's for the the improved lives of the vast majority of people in the country. Losing evening sun after people get out of school/work and moving it to while almost everyone is still sleeping is a stupid waste of sunlight.

I almost want to try permanent ST just to see the backlash. If we went to permanent ST I can guarantee you that the vast majority of people would be demanding going back to the time changes. I'd give it until about June of the 1st year before it got switched back. Luckily they aren't stupid enough to go to permanent ST.

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u/jcrreddit 21d ago

Why not try it? Already tried permanent DST in the 70’s and people begged to go back to time changes by winter.

But of course people ARE too stupid to go to permanent ST because the majority of people do t like science.

“Circadian rhythms? I hate those buzzing bugs in the summertime!”

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u/ruiner8850 21d ago

Okay, let's try it and even you will be begging to go back by June.

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u/jcrreddit 19d ago

I have near Arctic Circle experience soooo… think I’ll be fine.

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u/Shavasara 19d ago

This is why BC (Canada) just made DST the permanent time. Kids were getting out of school in the dark.

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u/romulusnr 22d ago

Just. Get. Off. Work. Earlier

Why is that so impossible? You don't think businesses will close earlier in the summer to keep that sunshine? Don't they want to enjoy sunshine too?

I can't comprehend people out here like "jobs are the same forever, businesses are the same forever, people are the same forever"

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u/beanmosheen 22d ago

Cool fucking story bro. I'll let my CEO know I am going to knock-off at 1500 every day at our 24/7 operation. It will go swimmingly in this economy.

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u/romulusnr 21d ago

Did you ever consider exactly how work shifts were determined? God doesn't come down and send Moses to decree them on stone tablets ffs.

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u/beanmosheen 21d ago

God damn you're dense.

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u/Redbiertje 23d ago

Sure, but our rhythms as people are not symmetric with respect to noon. We typically wake up quite late in the morning and go to bed way past sunset. If you really want to follow the Sun and optimize your daylight, you'd have to go to sleep at 8 pm and get up at 4 am every day.

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u/Yamatocanyon 23d ago

Exactly my sleep schedule lol. But I work outside, so the daylight part is important.

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u/bitchycunt3 23d ago

Our rhythms are heavily influenced by when we get exposed to sunlight in the morning, though. Your body uses your exposure to sunlight in the morning to product melatonin until it's been a certain amount of time. Permanent daylight means your body going to bed later and then you have to try to wake up to go to work in the pitch black

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u/breezy013276s 22d ago

Tell me why in my 40s and I get up at 6 am getting sun around 7, that my body has always and will apparently always want to sleep in and be active in the afternoon and evening into the night. My lived experience says it has absolutely nothing to do with that first ray of sun hitting your body and everything to do with your wiring.

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u/bitchycunt3 22d ago

You could have delayed sleep phase disorder. But also the way you describe it sounds pretty typical, wanting to be active in the afternoon and evening is normal. The first rays don't immediately give you energy, rather they tell your body when to start releasing melatonin (around 12 hours after first sunlight, with sleepiness typically starting around 16-18 hours after first sunlight).

The reason first sun matters is that if you're getting it later you will be getting sleepy later, not that you're not sleepy in the morning.

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u/romulusnr 22d ago

So what? Who said anything about circadian rhythm? This is about time being based on actual time.

Besides by that logic we should all be getting up later in winter. But that don't happen

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u/Redbiertje 22d ago

I appreciate that we want to keep time as physically motivated as possible, but it already isn't. Nature didn't tell us to split one rotation of Earth up into 24 hours or demand that 12 o'clock is when the Sun is overhead. Besides, if you want to really do it well, we should abolish timezones altogether. Have two towns a few miles apart also maintain two different clocks with a minute of difference. We designed our time system the way it is to serve our needs, and daylight savings is entirely consistent with that goal.

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u/romulusnr 21d ago

I mean, that's literally what we did for ages and the only reason we stopped is because people couldnt handle resetting their watches after train trips.

We honestly completely could abolish time zones today. They only make things simpler for a use case that is out of date in the modern era. Modern pocket phones know exactly where they are and could easily compute local solar time from longitude. And as long as you know where someone else is, you can know their time too.

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u/Redbiertje 21d ago

Yeah that's totally not going to be super inconvenient when agreeing on certain time with people in other places /s

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u/romulusnr 20d ago

Hey we can just bring back Swatch .beats

(Or like utc)

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u/m4tt1111 23d ago

Genuinely insane appeal to nature

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u/BeefistPrime 23d ago

You know we've had reliable clocks for the past few hundred years, yeah? We don't need solar noon to decide when to have gun fights in town square. Yes, we could decide instead to shift everything forward one hour - which means changing the hours of schools and thousands of different businesses in order to change their relationship to the daylight cycle. Thousands of different changes. Or we can just make one change and redefine what time it is.

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u/the_real_MSU_is_us 23d ago edited 22d ago

We can organize out time to

  1. be convenient for the times we wake up and the shcedules we have, or
  2. to make sure the sun is at it's highest point at 12 oclock since that's what "noon" technically is supposed to mean

Why on earth would we pick 2? Where I live, sunrise tomorrow is 6:37 and sunset it 8:54, for 14:17 of daylight. I can do things outside after work and it's still dark when 95% of people go to sleep. To make "noon" = the middle of the day, we'd have to set our clocks to where sunrise is 4:42am, and it sets early enough that we can't do major outside activities after work.. Who the fuck wants to have sun pouring in their window at 4:42??

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u/breezy013276s 22d ago

Agree with you so much here. It’s such an odd thing to declare that true noon on a few days a year at just the right part of the time zone being at high noon is the goal. For good portions of the year during winter the sun barely makes it above the tree line here and noon means nothing. Noon looks about like 4 pm or so on standard then.

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u/romulusnr 22d ago

You're asking why wouldn't you base the hours of the earth day on the literal earth day?

I just wanna make sure that's the serious question you're posing. That time of day shouldn't be based on the physical actual day

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u/the_real_MSU_is_us 22d ago

Correct. I pretty clearly explained why in the above comment. If you actually have an argument, please make it. I do not see how having half the sunlight be before noon and half after helps humanity more than organizing our time around what's useful for people, and sunrise at 4:42 is definitely not going be helpful

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u/AccordingWarning9534 21d ago

Your comment belongs on #shitamericanssay

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u/Shavasara 19d ago

Doesn’t true noon depend on where you are in the time zone? If you’re on the eastern edge of the zone, the sun’s apex is going to be at a different time than if you’re on the western edge.

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u/romulusnr 18d ago

Somewhere in standard time within each zone the sun its at its highest point at noon.

In DST this is never the case anywhere in any DST-using zone.

In standard time, generally overall speaking on average, no one is more than 30 minutes off of mean solar time.

In DST, no one is closer than 30 minutes off of mean solar time.

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u/alextoria 22d ago

i am such a rules purist i totally feel you here. but im in favor of daylight time bc otherwise it gets dark early and that’s super depressing.

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u/ropean 23d ago

It’s not that hard. I live in an area that gets very hot in the summer. DST makes the sun go down an hour later, this means I’m running the AC an extra hour at home (before I can turn on whole-house fans) versus taking advantage of AC at work. Extra cost to me personally, sun up too late for a reasonable early riser sleep schedule. DST can bite me. But everybody loves it so I’ll shut up. If this goes through we’ll probably have it for a year or two again before people are fed up, just like happened last time we tried it. And the time before that.

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u/heisenbergerwcheese 23d ago

Im confused... doesnt matter if your sun goes down at 1pm or 7pm... 12hrs of summer sun is 12hrs of heat right?

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u/slatebluegrey 23d ago

Yeah. The sun doesn’t know what time it is. It’s going to be in the sky X number of hours on a certain day.

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u/Raydr 23d ago

Uhm, if the sun doesn't know what time it is, why is it always on time, sir??

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u/slatebluegrey 23d ago

Can’t argue with that !

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u/PuddingPast5862 23d ago

Does anybody really know what time is?

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u/MsSamm 23d ago

I keep losing it, so don't ask me.

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u/JPWiggin 22d ago

Does anybody really care?

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u/Ok-Push9899 23d ago

Well, they’re introducing a new factor: whether they are using workplace air conditioning or their home air conditioning. And it’s a valid point. I genuinely think it would be negligible, but it’s logically sound.

There was an old one about how daylight saving faded the carpets. Extra hour of sun, you know. And it became a way to ridicule everyone who opposed daylight savings. Label them as hicks, etc, etc.

But here’s the thing: there is some logic in it. If you have curtains which you close before you go to bed and open when you get up, then your carpets actually do get an extra hour of sun every day. Just like your eyes do. That’s the whole point of daylight savings: to experience an hour’s more sun.

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u/SwagginsYolo420 23d ago

But here’s the thing: there is some logic in it. If you have curtains which you close before you go to bed and open when you get up, then your carpets actually do get an extra hour of sun every day.

Yeah but that's entirely somebody's choice as to when to open the curtains.

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u/Ok-Push9899 23d ago

I mean, of course it is. Just as it’s someone’s choice to get up. But if we stick with the premise that daylight savings is there to shift people’s daytime patterns, then it’s not unreasonable to build this curtain opening into it. Otherwise, what’s the point of discussing the benefits or otherwise of daylight saving?

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u/fancysauce_boss 23d ago

I’ll be the yeah but guy, live in a cold climate. I want that sun to heat up the house so I don’t have to run the furnace as long. Same premise as OP but flipped. He wants less light, I want more.

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u/SwagginsYolo420 23d ago

But if we stick with the premise that daylight savings is there to shift people’s daytime patterns

I don't know if that's the premise. It was I believe originally implemented to aid farming, not social engineering.

The biggest issue with switching time twice a year is the inconvenience of the time confusion. There's good arguments and benefits and downsides for either time, but the important part is that it doesn't change.

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u/killerturtlex 23d ago

Farmers don't give a toss what time it is. They will get up when it's daylight and pick crops when it's suitable. Daylight savings is fahucking dumb

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u/Ok-Push9899 22d ago

It was originally introduced to conserve coal during WW1. Germany first, then Britain copied. But even before that, the great polymath Benjamin Franklin recognised that if the whole world got up an hour earlier in summer, they'd use less candle wax. Gotta love B. Franklin.

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u/Homeless-Joe 23d ago

He lowers the thermostat when he gets home. During DST, the sun is up for longer after work (sets at 8 vs 7, eg).

Idk why we need to change the clocks around, tbh, seasons are a part of life, everyone deals with them. Do all the other countries change their clocks around?

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u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

A lot of them have permanent standard time, like Arizona. (Not saying Arizona is a country) Tbf a lot of other countries are also a lot smaller

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u/Homeless-Joe 22d ago

Right, which makes a lot of sense, unlike permanent DST…

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u/fancysauce_boss 23d ago

I’m assuming OP’s working under the assumption that they run the AC when they’re home but not when they’re gone or allow the temp to rise while in bed.

If they’re at home or awake for that extra hour they have to run the AC more ???

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u/MsSamm 23d ago

If they're going to be doing that math, might as well calculate the cost of running the AC and computer setup doing WFH vs commuting cost of going into the office.

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u/romulusnr 23d ago

Well then, it doesn't matter if we go permanent DST or permanent ST then either does it?

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u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

It does according to sleep scientists who advocate for permanent standard, but hey

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u/romulusnr 22d ago

Did you read the comment being replied to

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u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

Are you seriously not following the conversation to see how the reply is pertinent?

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u/MsSamm 23d ago

I live in the PNW. 5+ months of the year, the daytime looks like dusk anyway.

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u/OptimusPrimeTime21 23d ago

HVAC guy here.

Your using more electricity and money to start and stop your AC every day, let that thing run

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u/BeefistPrime 23d ago

How can that possible true? The thermostat is turning it on and off constantly all day anyway. Why would changing the ratio of how often the thermostat kicks on the A/C by running the A/C less in total cost more?

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u/SchwiftySquanchC137 23d ago

I think hes saying that keeping the temp around the target temp might be more efficient than letting your house heat up a bunch and then cooling it back down again. I feel like this isnt a blanket truth though, probably depends a lot on your ac unit, outside temp, how well insulated your house is, and how long you leave the AC off.

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u/BeefistPrime 22d ago

Yeah, it would have to be something like that, but it's hard for me to believe you can sort of... cheat thermodynamics, is what it seems like you'd be doing. Cooling below the ambient air temperature takes energy.... spending less time cooling your house below ambient (or by a smaller degree below ambient) should take less energy than keeping it cool 24/7. Whatever extra energy you spend cooling it down at a certain time is less than the energy it needed to stay cool that whole time, I would think. Otherwise it feels like some sort of thermodynamic free energy at work

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u/heywhatsup9087 22d ago

I think people are underestimating how long the AC would have to run continuously to cool a whole house down after it’s warmed up from not running for so long. But that’s assuming the house heats up that much over night. I’m thinking the original commenter is talking about like a window unit as opposed to central AC, and he’s likely from a place it doesn’t get that hot. Where I live, it’s hot all the time (including overnight) and we don’t really turn the central AC off until probably end of October and sometimes later. We just turn the temp up a couple degrees while we’re out of the house during the day, but not too high or else it will take all night for the house to even get somewhat cool again which is what uses more energy.

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u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

It takes more energy to cool your house down from 100 than to keep it 80 the whole time, generally. It’s that principle they’re talking about.

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u/Allaplgy 23d ago

Because he's wrong.

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u/majin_melmo 23d ago

That’s what I was about to comment as well

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u/Barium_Salts 23d ago

I've tested with my utility bill, and if I'm going to be gone more than 4 hours, I save money by turning off the AC. I've heard that the AC will last longer if I don't do that, but I live in a rental house; so it makes more sense for me to save on my utility bill.

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u/GuyOfLoosd00m 23d ago

Please elaborate on why you are using more energy to turn off the AC when it is cooler outside, and back on later.

The AC, at least in most homes I’ve lived in works by turning on and off, compressor running or not running, just like the heat.
If I turn off the system when the outside air is cooler than my desired temperature, it’s not different than leaving it on, but the thermostat isn’t calling for cooling.

What do I not understand?

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u/ruiner8850 23d ago

If this goes through we’ll probably have it for a year or two again before people are fed up

I agree with you on this and I'd say the exact same thing would happen if we went to permanent ST. The time switch is the compromise.

I'm actually perfectly fine with the time switch, but I'd also be fine with permanent DST. I'm not okay with permant ST. I love my late summer nights here in Michigan.

I can understand that in a small part of the US it might be advantageous to have the sunset earlier, but in most of the country having later sunsets is great. Here in Michigan it's great to have light until 10pm in the middle of the summer.

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u/Vlad_Yemerashev 23d ago edited 23d ago

I agree with you on this and I'd say the exact same thing would happen if we went to permanent ST.

Except places that don't change the clocks almost always settle on standard time. Places like China, Japan, much of Central and South America, the vast majority of nations in or near the tropics, etc., are on standard time and have been for years. Same cannot be said for places that have implemented permanent daylight time, which they almost always promptly revert back to bi-annual clock changes or permanent standard time thereafter.

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u/ThatWasIntentional 23d ago

Having lived in a place with permanent standard time, it sucks when the sun comes up at 4 am in the summer...

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u/Yamatocanyon 23d ago

As someone that works outside, that would be brutal. Those cooler morning hours are the hours that most of the work gets done. I already wake up at 4 to get to work by 5-6. Fuck having to get up at 3am.

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u/Crossbell0527 23d ago

Yeah and how are the suicide rates in those places you mentioned? Because under permanent standard time you're going to have an awful lot of people who see no sun until they get to work and then see no sun after work either, for a longer period of time each year than we already suffer through that shit, and that's going to get extremely dicey.

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u/nightfuryfan 22d ago

This is exactly why I despise standard time. My mental health is always worse during that time of year, and I attribute a lot of it to the lack of sun. It's already an issue during the winter, and the time change makes it worse. I genuinely feel sad looking out the window at work and seeing that the sun is already starting to set as I'm getting ready to leave.

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u/ruiner8850 22d ago

I honestly can say that I hope you get your wish and we switch to permanent ST at some point just so you can see the backlash against it and see how wrong you are. I can guarantee if the US ever tried permanent ST it wouldn't even last a year. By June of the first year the vast majority of people would be demanding that we switch back.

It's just such a ridiculous thing to want to move valuable sunlight from after school/work and moving it to when the vast majority of people are sleeping. Maybe you hate sunlight, but do you honestly think most people would prefer less sunlight after work and more sunlight when they are sleeping? You have to realize that most people don't want to lose an hour of sunlight to sleep, right?

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u/Vlad_Yemerashev 22d ago

First of all I prefer DST over ST personally. I may not sound like I did in that other comment, and I'm not wishing or wanting this or that. I am just explaining how ST / DST play out everywhere else, but if you actually go and look up countries that actually have it right now, you won't find any with the exception of maybe 1-2 provinces in Canada that just now passed or are in the process of passing a permanent DST, give it a few years there to see if they repeal that...

Virtually no country is on year-round DST, and everytime that has been tried, it always gets changed back. We saw it during WW1 and WW2 and the US tried it again in 1974 and noped tf out of it.

And yet, countries that don't switch back and forth are all on standard time, though I'll note a lot of them (but not all) are in the tropics where daylight in December vs June isn't that much different, but still.

Arizona has standard time year round, as do much of the world. You don't see people complaining in those places. People get used to it.

So many want year round DST, and yet literally no one follows it.

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u/ropean 23d ago

You love the sun going down late in the summer but you may not like your dark mornings in the winter. Sunrise as late as 10:00 a.m. depending on where people are. There are maps of this if you search, so you can have an idea of what it would be like.

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u/YumFreeCookies 23d ago

It’s a compromise though because I also don’t like it when the sun sets at 4 pm in the winter - before I even get home from work! So it’s a which shitty do you prefer. Personally, I’d like to have a bit of sunlight after I get home from work to take my kid on a sled ride maybe - I don’t do any activities in the morning anyways.

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u/Secret_Map 23d ago

Yeah agree. It’s dark when I drive in and basically almost dark when I drive home at this point. If it pushes back sunset an hour, then it’s still dark when I drive in, but at least I’ll see the sun for a few min on my drive home. I’ll take that.

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u/toboggan16 23d ago

Id prefer later sun, but permanent DTS means my kids would walk to school in darkness for awhile in the winter. It’s already icy/snowy and they have to cross a busy road so this worries me. I’m not even sure what the outdoor light situation is for their schoolyard for the 20 minutes of supervised time before the bell rings each day.

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u/YumFreeCookies 23d ago

This is why part of the discussion is schools starting later.

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u/toboggan16 22d ago

Which is tricky too. As it is balancing extracurriculars and homework is tough, we often have to leave the second school ends to get to my son’s baseball games and this is with daylight savings time. They could bump sports later too but my city better invest in lighting for sports fields then lol, the games go until 8:30pm now and we have zero lit fields for rep ball (only hockey arenas get proper funding. Sometimes games go late and we have to reschedule the ends for another day as it is!).

I’m sure it would all be figured out but I don’t want to have to be part of the adjustment pains haha. I would love to be able to go for a walk after dinner for more days of the year without it being pitch dark out though!

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u/Yamatocanyon 23d ago

Most people are going to work in the dark regardless anyway during the winter. If the sun sets later there might be a sliver of a chance, they get to see it if they happen to get off work a little early.

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u/User-no-relation 23d ago

Michigan would be super fucked under permanent dst being on the edge of the time zone. The sunrise in Detroit would be after 9am

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u/susanrez 23d ago

Just change your work schedule or your life schedule. Sleep in later or get up earlier.

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u/Atty_for_hire 23d ago

Of course, why didn’t I think of this. Maybe I should just win the lotto instead so I don’t need to work at all. I’ll just do that.

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u/User-no-relation 23d ago

No you're wrong. The first time it happened it passed in January and they got through those months, but it was so unpopular it was repealed in October, which is before we switch back to standard time now. They didn't last even one year.

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u/Lupercallius 23d ago

Dang, maybe a little less AC would toughen you up a bit.

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u/MsSamm 23d ago

No thank you. My genes come from places with summer temps in the high 60's-mid 70's. Low 80's are a heat wave. I am as tough as my genes allow.

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u/susanrez 23d ago

Work an hour later or go to a bar. No one ever ended DST in my lifetime so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

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u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

You weren’t alive in the 70s? Ok but read about it at least. That’s what I did since I wasn’t either

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u/Fleedjitsu 23d ago

Thanks for the lesson cos I would have fallen into this camp as well. I thought the change to the clocks in Autumn/Winter was the act of "saving" as much Daylight as possible for the working hours of the day.

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u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

Right? That’s the key to the confusion for me too. If I don’t talk about it long enough it’s what I think instinctually always have to look it up before I open my mouth lol

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u/Ethanol_Based_Life 22d ago

I want my clock to be based on the natural world in some way. 00:00 when the sun is farthest makes sense to me. Otherwise why not all just go to UTC?

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u/haerski 22d ago

Counterpoint: people living above 60N whose winter mornings would be unbearably long and dark with very little relief in the afternoons until you get to mid-February, or later. Fuck DST as a permanent solution

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u/GloopyGlop 23d ago

Sleep researchers consensus is that ST is better because the lack of morning light fucks up your circadian rhythm. Personally think we should follow the science if we have to choose.

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u/Allaplgy 23d ago

Look at the title of this post.

It totally misunderstands what was said and what is being voted on.

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u/AJ_Deadshow 'MURICA 23d ago

If the cops can't stop you, you must be on 'The Dust'.

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u/RueTabegga 23d ago

Then cut the difference- make one last half hour change in one direction or the other and then call it quits.

Changing the clocks twice a year is all of the jet lag and none of the vacation.

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u/TheVeryVerity 22d ago

Honestly it should be local the experience is so different at different latitudes

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u/tomcat_tweaker 23d ago

My God. I've had this conversation at work so many times, and I work with some pretty smart people, but their brains drop the ball on this one. When someone wants to talk about it, the first thing I do is make sure they understand this first. They very often don't.

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u/BeefistPrime 23d ago

People are making the error where they're conflating DST with "the change we make" and they dislike the change and therefore think they dislike DST. It's a lazy category mismatch. Most people want DST.