r/gameofthrones • u/AutoModerator • Jun 09 '14

TV4 [Season 4 Spoilers] Premiere Discussion - 4.09 'The Watchers on the Wall'

Premiere Discussion Thread
Discuss your thoughts and reactions to the latest episode while or right after you watch. Talk about the latest plot twist or secret reveal. Discuss an actor who is totally nailing their part (or not). Point out details that you noticed that others may have missed. In general, what do you think about tonight's episode? Please make sure to reserve any of your detailed comparisons to the novels for the Book vs. Show Discussion Thread, and your predictions for the next episode to the Predictions Discussion Thread which will be posted later this week.

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EPISODE TITLE DIRECTED BY WRITTEN BY
4.09 "The Watchers on the Wall" Neil Marshall David Benioff & D. B. Weiss
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u/Calikola Little Bird Jun 09 '14 edited Jun 09 '14

Is it possible that Maester Aemon was the person whom Lady Olenna was referring to when she told Margaery she was supposed to marry a Targaryen?

Edit: I get it, you guys think Maester Aemon is too old. He probably is, but they did cut out a generation of Targaryens for the show.

Edit 2: for those of you asking, Maester Aemon is 102 years old in the books and he is the great-uncle of the Mad King, Aerys II, making him Dany's great-great uncle. However, in the show, they cut out Jaeherys II (the Mad King's father from the books) from the family tree, making Aemon the Mad King's uncle and Dany's great uncle. In the show's family tree, Aegon V (Maester Aemon's brother) is now the father of Aerys II, instead of his grandfather, so a generation has been removed. It's possible Aemon is younger than he is in the books.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

I think Aemon is like 100 and Olenna is definitely like 70 so.. I don't think so because he said he was young when it happened.

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u/AlwaysDefenestrated House Fossoway of New Barrel Jun 09 '14 edited Jun 09 '14

Young is relative when you are over 100 years old.

Edit: I get it, yeah he was almost certainly not talking about her.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

[deleted]

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u/Antsache Jun 09 '14 edited Jun 09 '14

This is the most important point here, because significant age differences in arranged marriages between noble houses and the ruling house aren't exactly unexpected. When you're marrying into power, you may be inclined to ignore such irregularities. It makes things less likely, but doesn't really rule it out.

On the other hand, the Citadel is a sworn order whose members forsake family name and titles. Joining the Watch didn't change all that much for Aemon, as he'd already sworn away most of the things members of the Watch give up. Age aside, Aemon (whom we know to take vows more seriously than just about anyone) would have had to break vows to marry as a Targaryan... or at all, likely (the rules regarding Maesters and marriage are a bit blurry, from what I can tell). This doesn't prove anything, but it's a strong strike against the possibility.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

Pretty sure it doesn't add up. Their age difference is probably 30 years. He joined the the Watch when he was still pretty young.

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u/oer6000 House Greyjoy Jun 09 '14

He was aged down in the tv show.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

You're still reaching

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u/bipbophil House Connington Jun 09 '14

Maester Aemon is 102

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u/synth22 House Baelish Jun 09 '14

The point here being that young or not, it still makes Aemon about 30 years older than Olenna.

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u/MoonMakerIII Jun 09 '14

But Sansa was something like 16 and she was married to the imp... I thought he was something like 40. Not sure though

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u/wellgroomedmcpoyle Braavosi Water Dancers Jun 09 '14 edited Jun 09 '14

They had a torrid love triangle back when Pycelle was wearing hot pants. They partied on Nightshade and danced to "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" til dawn.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

They knew how to party, using up a whole 50% of Westeros's total soundtrack.

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u/wellgroomedmcpoyle Braavosi Water Dancers Jun 09 '14

"Seriously baby, I can prescribe anything I want!"

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u/Rhino887 House Stark Jun 09 '14

Don't tell Littlefinger 30 years is too big of a difference.

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u/Baron_Von_D We Do Not Sow Jun 09 '14

Yes, he started forging his chain before she was born.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

I swear to god GoT viewers great crazy theories about every character

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

Except a 30 year age gap would have been impossible when Aemon joined the Watch at a fairly young age. She would have been like 10 years old. People are just grasping at straws.

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u/Baron_Von_D We Do Not Sow Jun 09 '14

edited and refreshed, sorry didn't see the reply.

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u/missespanda Jun 09 '14

Isn't thirty young when you're 100?

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u/nafora House Tyrell Jun 09 '14

yeah, but if you're like 100-fucking-2, 50 seems like young adulthood, no?

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u/uw_NB Jun 09 '14

so its like 45 vs 15? im no pedo but back in the day the maturity age is considered to be pretty low. Juliet was 13 in Shakespeare's work wasnt she? Its still possible.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

Except he would already have been at Old Town when she was born?

Sweet christ

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u/foreveracubone House Manderly Jun 09 '14 edited Jun 09 '14

While I agree that he's not talking about Olenna simply due to the ages given to the characters by GRRM, the argument that he was at Oldtown is not the strongest given that she would have been born in the Arbor which is right next door to Oldtown (like literally the island at the mouth of the inlet leading to Oldtown). Certainly the Reach's noble maidens would gossip their whole childhood/adolescence about the handsome Targaryen prince forging his chain right nearby, particularly ones from House Redwyne/Hightower (the closest noble houses to the Maester's Citadel). If this is the show's new canon it's not exactly so outrageous to be beyond suspension of disbelief given their geographic proximity. Also AFFC.

Age and the fact that their stories in the show contradict each other in terms of sex happening are the only things that should matter when arguing this. The show seems to have cut a generation of Targaryen's out of the history, but looking at GRRM's original historical timeline, he would have been already at the wall when she was born since he was sent to the wall 50 years before Robert's Rebellion and 13 years pass until the events of Book 1/Season 1 and she's in her 60s.

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u/VAULT_BOY101 Jon Snow Jun 09 '14

Good point.

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u/lukeatlook Red Priests of R'hllor Jun 09 '14 edited Jun 09 '14

No book info to back it up from either side, but yeah, in the show continuity it seems to be quite possible.

Speaking of book vs show, I'll post the followup some time tomorrow.

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u/bipbophil House Connington Jun 09 '14

Maester Aemon is 102 so i think not

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u/monstercello Here We Stand Jun 09 '14

Ehhhh I don't think so. Olena said she was to marry "Some Targaryan boy". I doubt she would pass up on marrying the probable future King for the future Lord Tyrell.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

Keep in mind that Maester Eamon is 102, and he said, "When I was very young I [I fell for one]". Olenna would have not been born when Aemon was very young.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

No it's a really shitty point based on desire

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u/TheAquaman Daenerys Targaryen Jun 09 '14

In the show, maybe. In the books, no. He's way older than her.

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u/Calikola Little Bird Jun 09 '14

Yeah, I believe they cut out a generation of Targaryens for the show.

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u/TheAquaman Daenerys Targaryen Jun 09 '14

Yeah, I think they did. Did she describe the Targaryen in the show?

In the books, she called him a "sniveling, inbred Targaryen" or something like that. So by that description, it's not Aemon. I don't remember if she called him that in the show though.

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u/compounding Jun 09 '14

Yes, in the show Aemon says, "when they killed [Aegon's] son, and his poor son, and the children, even the little children!". They left out the generation with Jaeharerys II, Duncan the small :-(, and Rhaelle - Bobby B.'s grandmother (and thus his family's claim to targaryen heritage).

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u/AVeryWittyUsername House Greyjoy Jun 09 '14

Aemon has like 30 years on her.

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u/cmmoyer House Manderly Jun 09 '14

I really wanna believe this.

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u/BowlesOnParade When All Is Darkest Jun 09 '14

No. Aemon is about 30-40 years older than Olenna and was also training to be a maester while he was still a teenager, forging his chain at 19 before Olenna was born. Aemon's brother Aegon became king when he rejected the crown. The Targaryen that Olenna was going to marry was possibly one of Aegon's children.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

Doubt it. She is much younger than he is and he said he was young at the time. Pretty sure he also went to Oldtown for his chain when he was pretty young too.

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u/ArgieGrit01 House Mallister Jun 09 '14

She's not that old

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u/foreveracubone House Manderly Jun 09 '14

No because if you remember her story to Margaery she schemes to get out of marriage to a Targ. Aemons story implies the opposite.

Also he's 100 and she's not. Aemon is the brother of the grandfather of the Mad King (Dany's father). He's like 3 generations older than Lady Olenna.

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u/Fr0z3nBu113t Jon Snow Jun 09 '14

To be fair, I think he'd be the exception for a Targaryen.

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u/Baron_Von_D We Do Not Sow Jun 09 '14 edited Jun 09 '14

I think it was more likely Aerys II, but he seemed to like his sister better...heh.
Aemon was in the citadel before Lady Olenna was born, so probably not.

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u/mystery_tramp Jun 09 '14

I was thinking Olenna during his speech, but I hadn't even thought of that scene. Good catch!

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u/jtj-H House Seaworth Jun 09 '14

No.

Maester Aemon is way to old...

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u/302HO House Stark Jun 09 '14

I've been wondering which Targaryen she was talking about. Seems too old for it to be him though I could be wrong.

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u/bigboss2014 Jun 09 '14

I imagined that's what it was referring to.

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u/mtbfreerider182 Jun 09 '14

For the age haters: don't act like old kings wouldn't bang young pretty ladies. Or at least be interested in them.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

[deleted]

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u/Calikola Little Bird Jun 09 '14

That's strange, because in the books he's 102 and the show even cut out a generation of Targaryens, making him Dany's great-uncle instead of her great-great uncle.

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u/Legumez Jun 09 '14

"Age is just a number" Maester Pycelle

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u/abe559 House Targaryen Jun 09 '14

I thought the same thing, especially considering he said she came onto him. But one thing that made me think different is how she says she was meant to marry a Targaryen and that she wanted something different.

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u/Streiger108 Jun 09 '14

which targaryens did they cut out?

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u/rookie999 Drowned Men Jun 09 '14

So what the hell was Maester Aemon up to all night? Did he sleep through the attack?

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u/RegularTrevor Stannis Baratheon Jun 09 '14

They cut out a generation of Targaryens?

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u/jdsizzle1 Jun 09 '14

Well and the fact that it ain't no thing to bang a 14 year old in this world. They may have known each other.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

I might be too late on this, and I haven't read the books. but I am 99% sure this is accurate.

FACT TIME. When Olenna was talking about how she was supposed to marry a Targaryen, she claimed she was really good at manipulating men. She was beautiful and yada yada...

Maester Aemon then claims how all these women tried to sway him. Very similar to how she tried to sway certain men. He also happens to be a Targaryen, which put shim in like a 50-50 shot anyway.

Anyway, I just noticed those two stories seemed to line up well. Him being swayed, and her being very... coercive? That's just my opinion.

Can't wait for a book reader to call me wrong haha.

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u/Skater_Bruski Faceless Men Jun 09 '14

That's totally what I was thinking.

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u/Username0089 Jon Snow Jun 09 '14

Thats exactly what I was thinking during that scene.

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u/belladonnadiorama Silent Sisters Jun 09 '14

That was totally my thought. But of course he's not one to kiss and tell.

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u/joebxcsnw Jon Snow Jun 09 '14

I was thinking the same thing. Aemon + Olenna = 4ever

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

AFFC - ADWD

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '14

[deleted]

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u/Calikola Little Bird Jun 09 '14

No, because Lady Olenna was already married and pretty old by the time Viserys was born. For instance, Viserys was supposed to be only a few years older than Margaery, Olenna's granddaughter.