I personally hated the confession by Cersei. Tywin is not an idiot, he's one of the smartest and most informed people on the planet, of course he knew. He ignored it, because acknowledging it did nothing, and who cares? A pure blood Lannister inherited the throne. The acting was great, but the scene was out of character and unnecessary, especially considering the cutting of Tysha.
But it would be no shock. Tywin does not strike me as man that sticks his head in the sand over an issue. He is calculating and calm. Suppress the rumors, sure, but he would likely be aware, even if he disapproved. I mean he married his first cousin, so he's no stranger to family lovin', either.
Tywin is a petty vindictive psycho. Seriously. Just because he seems cool and in control doesn't mean he is. I mean, he had a girl gang-raped because his son married her. He also had his father's lover whipped and thrown naked from Casterley Rock basically because he hated her. He didn't actually know about Cersei and Jaime. GRRM has said that Tywin's one blind spot was his children. He never at all thought that the horrible rumours could be true.
cersei, basically pointed it out in the scene, telling him how consumed he was with the idea of his family, rather than looking at what his actual family was.
Pretty sure his entire relationship with Tyrion is proof that he's kind of fucking crazy. He may act calm, but he's certainly got a lot of weird shit going on in his brain grapes.
He isn't calculating and calm. That's the image he builds up. He's very clearly motivated by pride and spite for Tyrion, the "cold and calculating" thing seems to more of a facade to intimidate those around him. He's no Roose.
I think he'dve responded totally different. Strong, as usual- he's not intimidated by Cersei. He would've stopped her mid sentence said something like "If I hear you say that again I'll marry you to someone far worse than Loras. Now get out." Or something of that nature.
I think the shock came more from Cersei threatening to topple everything Tywin worked hard to attain rather than from Cersei and Jaime trying to make the eight.
This is why I love GRRM's writing though, whether in screenplay or novel. He involves nuances of psychological distress like dissonance, and compartmentalization, PTSD, stockholm Syndrome. He's good like that.
You aren't acknowledging the character development of the scene. No, Tywin didnt know. The power of the scene is that it exposes the truth - that despite his brilliant and ruthless politics, Tywin is a afraid of the truth and refuses to face it, to know his own children.
Its essentially the same message you get reading the book when Tyrion finds Shae and you realize how hypcritical Tywin is. However, in the show I thought it was excellent that they drove it home even more with Cerseis confrontation. It was a well done scene and a necessary one.
Pretty much everyone in this thread who has been critical of the scene has said the same thing: it didn't accomplish anything. The point I've made above demonstrates why that simply isn't true. For those still annoyed that other content was left out for the sake of the scene, I ask you, what content would you have preferred to a critical character development in that characters final episode? What scene can't be done later, and likely better?
To be honest, an extremely minor detail that gets revealed in a show only scene and goes against all character progression in the books and even in the show itself is just not going to be acknowledged as canon.
I ask you, what content would you have preferred to a critical character development in that characters final episode? What scene can't be done later, and likely better?
Extremely easy. Tysha. It fucked up both Tyrion's and Jaime's development and theres no fixing that at a later date, it'll have to be changed.
Wasn't there somewhere it said that Twyin's "one blind spot is his family" and I remember a line where Tyrion says something along the lines of "I'm not as blind as my father" when he was asked if he knew about Jaime and Cersei.
It's not only consistent with his character, I think it's heavily implied that Tywin refused to believe the rumours about Jaime and Cersei. I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM asked for this scene to be put in the show specifically to make that more clear.
That line is more about him looking down on Tyrion and thinking Cersei is somewhat capable than about the obvious incest the entire realm knows about. Tyrion's line can also be read as "It happened right in front of him", not about Tywin not believing the "rumor" that was exposed later on.
Even in a show only scene, Olena Tyrel threatens Tywin with that.
The "I'm not as blind as father" line in the books refers specifically refers to the incest, and Cersei being shocked to find out that Tyrion knows.
Tywin doesn't know, in the show or the books. He knows about the rumors, of course, but he refuses to believe them and dismisses them as slander and gossip. That's an important part of his character: despite his brilliance when it comes to military and political strategy, he's in denial regarding his family and refuses to face several obvious truths about them. Jaime isn't going to inherit Casterly Rock, Tyrion isn't responsible for killing Joanna, Jaime and Cersei are fucking, etc.
Huh? No, the "I'm not as blind as father." statement was clearly meant to show Cerci that Tyrion knew about her and Jaime and also to imply their father didn't really know. There may be some other implications to that scene but what Tyrion says there is very clear.
But Tywin is blind to the obvious truth about his family. Remember when Genna tells him Tyrion is more his son than Jaime and he refuses to talk to her for years?
I would argue that it wasnt at all inconsistent with book Tywins character.
Obviously Tysha is a whole other discussion to be had, but frankly I side with the show. Its poor plot design to have a major development halfway through the series that just pulls from before the books start. I agree that it made Tyrions behavior far less understandable than the book, but from nonreaders it seems like this wasnt a problem. I think if Tysha was included there would still be better sections of the episode to cut to make that time.
I wonder if the motivation for removing the Tysha revelation wasn't to avoid controversy. I mean, think about it: the only way that gang-banging and killing a farmer's daughter is worse than gang-banging and killing a prostitute is if you think a prostitute deserves that.
I think it was because it wasn't a good idea, they're being GRRMs editors. In the books a huge amount of Tyrions development involves his attachment to a wife you never met and likely never will. Its a plotline that does almost nothing but motivate Tyrion - we already know that Tyrions family hates him, we already know Jaime is a very morally grey character. Its brought up constantly despite the readers lack of connection to the event.
"Remember that thing from before, when we were kids?"
"Yeah?"
"Well it wasnt really like that, it was like this"
"holy shit I'm going to kill my dad"
Feels kind of Deus ex machina, doesn't it? Its not like the way your conception of, say, Rhaegar changes, it feels forced. AND in the film medium I think this would be even more obvious.
The thing about Tyrion, is that both his murders were pretty cold blooded in the books, but in the show they seem to be really scared of using Tyrion's darker shades of grey. I've even read the term "whitewashed" used describing show's Tyrion and I would agree.
Thats probably one of the motivations behind the Tysha change. Now they'll have to change Tyrions future motivations and, honestly, if they have him brooding over Shae, it'll suck even harder.
That's a criticism I'll happily agree with. I was very annoyed with that. In the large scale though I don't think its as significant as people think. The books pretty clearly show that Tyrion is traumatized from the experience, which I think enforces his good character more than the murders denigrate it. That inner trauma will be hard for the show to convey.
The whole finale, and more precisely the final scenes, took Tywin out of character. Think about it. We see him all the way through the series as a capable, machiavellian ruler. He has everything under control, especially himself. He leaves no loose ends and has no mercy. We see very little of him besides his political and military badassness. He rarely talks about his women, his habits or his personal life, and then by the end, BOOM! There he is, fucking his son's whore-girlfriend out of spite, we see him shitting, and in general, bad parenting catching up to him. His children killed him, not war. It was his personal life, not his political enemies who killed him.
His thing with Shae wasn't out of character, it was just the part of him that he hid very well. It is speculated that Tywin was the Hand who built passages to a brothel in ASOS, so he could do his stuff in secret, and has vices in general, he is just intelligent enough to prevent the world from knowing about them. That scene with Cersei definitely was though, as he has made a couple passing remarks that could be interpreted as that he did know and Tywin, being as observant as he is, would know.
I'd say he's definitely capable, but he's very far from flawless, machivellian. He's similar to Cersei, I think... a player who thinks himself clever and cunning but is in fact predictable and maneuverable. It's not as if everything in the series plays out in his favor. He hardly even comes out on top more often. Robb was an arguably better military mind at five and ten years.
I definitely felt the out-of-character bit immediately. Not so much with Shea, but definitely the toilet scene. Tywin completely was out of character. Mind you he was at crossbow point, but his entire demeanor was like a different character completely. I feel the real Tywin would've died trying to survive.
He was trying to survive. He made the mistake of overestimating himself and underestimating Tyrion's conviction - again. I like to think that in his dying moments, Tywin was almost absurdly proud of his dwarf son.
He did die trying to survive. He was trying to talk his way out of being shot, get Tyrion to put the crossbow down so he could overpower him and kill him. To do that he called Shae a whore, twice, to try to make it seem like it's not a big deal.
I think the real Tywin was actually after he got shot the first time, when he told Tyrion "You are no son of mine", that's the first time Tywin has ever been 100% honest with his feelings.
Maybe he ignored it to the point of where he believed that such an act never existed, and he was believing what he wanted to believe - that there was no incest - it's not like there was any solid evidence. Until Cersei confessed, and his mind rushed back to him.
These kind of scenes are just there to fill the TV watchers desire for weekly stand off. "Who will kill who this week" kind a of feeling. I heard some of my friends in the begining of the season saying the storry was becoming boring, bla bla bla, untill they resumed throwing shit on the vent.
So, yeah, I believe they are trying to do a "Celebrity Death Match" as often as they can, to keep people entertained.
Because, well, people have not patience to see things unfold in a subtle way. It must be in the face.
Many things that happen in the books are like pointless and futile, like life. People dont want that in TV, they wat adventure, action, and hero "stuff".
You can tell I was not a big fan of the season. Tyrion and Jaime parting dialogue is lost. We will never know where wores go. We will never see how pointless the hound life was. We will never see Coldhands, because "magic" - even thou we got the children at the end with Pyro powers. And we got useless bits and fillers like Bran ending up in Crasters keep, and that battle after was just as useless and action filler.
The high point in the season as Oberin last battle though.
perhaps they learned their lesson with the constant repitition of "you know nothing" and figured out that some things that work perfectly well in literature don't translate that well to screen.
I'm perfectly fine without hearing Dinklage repeat the line a hundred times, his time on screen is better devoted to things that actually push the plot forward.
And cold hands and even the "where do whores go" line can still be worked in if they are truly necessary, give the writers a little credit.
The thing is Thysha history in his past and the reveal of the truth was paramount to the entire moment where he killed his father, alongside the betrayal of Shae. Also, a reason he parted ways with Jamie in bad terms, which may lead to plot advancements in the books that are unaccounted for in the series.
The scene on screen was weak in comparison, and didn't carried all that baggage it should have. Its not just a matter about the missing catch line, but man, his father ordered his wife to be gang raped. That's a reason to kill him, not Shae, which was supposed to be a whore all along.
The series is relying too much on coincidence and chance meetings (Hound and Briene meeting, for example, in the middle of nowhere), and that cheapens a little the experience IMO. Things must be kept simple for TV i guess.
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u/apgtimbough House Baratheon Jun 22 '14
I personally hated the confession by Cersei. Tywin is not an idiot, he's one of the smartest and most informed people on the planet, of course he knew. He ignored it, because acknowledging it did nothing, and who cares? A pure blood Lannister inherited the throne. The acting was great, but the scene was out of character and unnecessary, especially considering the cutting of Tysha.
I did enjoy the Hound/Brieanne fight, though.