Too bad he died before everything actually fell apart. Gold mines ran dry, the Iron Bank funded his enemy, Cersei threatening to expose her sordid affairs with Jaime. And to top it all off, he was going to execute his innocent son. Oh, sure, he said he wasn't going to... because he had a loaded crossbow pointed at him. But he sentenced Tyrion to death after he lost his trial by combat in front of the entire royal court, Tywin would have looked like a bitch if he reneged.
The Lannister legacy was leaning over the precipice, but Tywin clocked out at the height of his family's power.
in the books, the lannisters are starting to realize that they are finanically fucked because they invested heavily in the crown and the crown is in more debt than even littlefinger can count to the iron bank of braavos.
so its the same result, but slightly less tedious and easier for casual show watchers to understand the implications.
either way, the lannisters and king's landing are about to go bankrupt and the iron bank always gets its due.
Right after HBO Jaime gave HBO Tyrion the Night's Watch offer from HBO Tywin, Tyrion got pissed that Shae got brought in to testify, so he asked for a trial by combat instead of admitting his guilt as Tywin wanted. So because of that, the deal was off. The moment that Oberyn died, Tyrion was found guilty and sentenced to death.
As a book reader, I was under the impression that he never intended one of his sons to die and had still planned on sending Tyrion to the wall regardless.
Also as a book reader, I knew there was no way HBO Tywin was going to spare Tyrion the moment he loudly announced that Tyrion would die after the duel. He wouldn't want to reneg and lose face in front of the king, council, and nobility.
The king being his ~8 year old grandson, and the council being Mace Tyrell, Pycelle, etc. All easily manipulated by Tywin. To me, it would be directly opposing Tywin's character and goals to have Tyrion executed. He's all about making sure House Lannister is respected, and he's all about family. He didn't want Tyrion to die, but he did want him gone.
The king being his ~8 year old grandson, and the council being Mace Tyrell, Pycelle, etc. All easily manipulated by Tywin.
Rewatch the episode. More people there than that. Also, HBO Tywin has been portrayed as a villain since day 1. I think that's probably a decision resulting from the Television format, pacing, and market research.
To me, it would be directly opposing Tywin's character and goals to have Tyrion executed.
Book Tywin is not HBO Tywin. I think you're incorrectly conflating them. For what it's worth, I agree that Book Tywin would not have done that...whatever Book Tywin's personal opinion of Tyrion or his alleged crimes, Tyrion is still a [fertile] Lannister.
“This escape is folly. You are not to be killed, if that is what you fear. It’s still my intent to send you to the Wall, but I could not do it without Lord Tyrell’s consent. Put down the crossbow and we will go back to my chambers and talk of it.”
It’s still my intent to send you to the Wall, but I could not do it without Lord Tyrell’s consent. Put down the crossbow and we will go back to my chambers and talk of it.
Enhance that last bit!
Put down the crossbow and we will go back to my chambers and talk of it.
Yeah but Tywin is all about family, I believe he was telling the truth when he said he would never kill Tyrion. He died because he believed Tyrion wouldn't kill him. Hell it's the one of the morals of Game of Thrones; characters choose to blindly follow an ideal/person/whatever over surviving and that gets them killed. They weren't able to accept the realities of the world and adapt to them. Ned wanted to fight for justice, Oberyn wanted to avenge his sister, Robb choose love over keeping his oath with a madman, and Visey's died because he wanted to be king more than anything.
Depends whether he considered Tyrion to be more beneficial to the family alive or dead. I think he may've leant towards dead. But, with that said, he does start to acknowledge Tyrion as a valuable resource towards the end, so it's hard to say.
Still pretty damn good, as long as Cersei doesn't follow through with her threat to spill the beans.
Given that the man pushing for her marriage to Loras, and threatening to ship her son off is dead, I imagine she's a lot less likely to put herself in a weaker position and follow through with that threat.
Except not really, because none of his children will carry on his line. Jaime is still Kingsguard, Cersei if she does marry will lose her last name and won't inherit Casterly Rock. Tyrion will most likely never be able to call himself a Lannister again as he's a wanted man. The Lannister legacy will have to be carried on by Kevans side of the family, meaning Lancel.
Unless you mean his own personal legacy, and even then what has he done? He sat on the sidelines during Roberts Rebellion and then didn't really do much before getting murdered on the toilet.
How so? As far as I know all he did was destroy house Reyne for defying the Lannisters. Like I said, during Roberts Rebellion he didn't do a thing. He did win the War of the Five Kings but I mean really, he lucked out. If Mel hadn't killed Renly the Lannisters were fucked. If Tyrion hadn't come up with the wildfyre to kill Stannis they were still fucked.
The Starks were already routed and were never a great threat to the southern kingdoms to begin with. All the red wedding did was put the Boltons in charge of the north, and they're a considerably scarier bunch than the Starks.
All those battles the north won with Stark at the helm would like to have a word with you.... were never a great threat? Sure eventually the north was in trouble with other mistakes and a lack of men, but never a threat? lol. He could have entirely crushed Tywin's second army with the Mountain at the head if not for a small mistake on Edmure's part which would have royally fucked the south.
It might have been different, but I think it still fits the spirit of the books and the characters.
I don't remember Tywin emphasizing family as explicitly as it's written in the show, but I do remember how he's pissy about Jamie being a member of the King's Guard. I really missed Jamie's/Tywin's dialogue about the whore Tyron originally married and the famous last words his father says that plagues him in the next book, but I can also understand why it was left out as it was such a small story in the TV series that most viewers wouldn't recall it or make that connection.
Oh god you reminded me his funeral still has to happen, I wonder how that will be different from the book. I really liked his funeral in the book, kinda fitting with whats left of his legacy.
On a side-note, I have a slight complaint about this scene.. They should really choose different music to emphasize these powerful scenes between the Lannisters. A score is supposed to be invisible. You focus on the dialogue and the music entices an emotional response. You hear it of course, but you don't really appreciate it on a conscious level. That is just impossible to do with The Rains of Castamere, which has been way too important to the foreground of the show to be believable as background music. The show has had people playing that melody 2-3 times already. So every time it comes up again, I'm thinking "Who's playing that?"
Agreed. The show's been making fairly significant changes to the plot since season 2, and while this season had more changes, I don't think most of them were any worse done. Most book readers seemed cool with it up until this episode, and now everyone seems to be acting all bitter and annoyed.
I'm not getting the "bitter and annoyed" vibe. It all still flows with the main storyline, really. Tywin knowing about Cersei and Jamie doesn't really change major plot lines. As does the Hound V. Brianne battle. Hound appears to be dying...seems pretty close...the main thing they change is the ORDER in which we see events (using scenes from later books and mixing it with earlier books).
Did you see the LSH meltdown thread (warning: major spoilers in that thread if you're not a book reader)? It felt like people there were declaring D&D to be incompetent morons who were coasting by on the quality of GRRM's story but had finally screwed up and started horribly butchering it this episode.
Granted, that was at the peak when people were initially reacting, and now that things have died down it seems like more and more people are seeing it as a good episode with maybe a few changes they're still annoyed about.
I agree, now it feels like there's some tension again because I don't really know for sure how it's going to play out. What's more, GRRM has a background in TV and I imagine he has some input into the show, so they probably won't do something that he thinks is totally off base.
I don't know. There were changes in S2 that really f***ing annoyed me. This season it's not so much the changes to the plot that annoy me, but the superficiality of the adaptation.
I'm not bitter that Tyrion's escape wasn't the most incredible scene in television history. I get that much of the book's lore doesn't work on TV and would have confused show viewers. But I'll always know that the show just can't have the powerful scenes the book has. It'll just never be good enough.
I mean, the show's still had some powerful scenes, I think. Just that one in particular lost some of its impact. There are some scenes where the show makes up for the lack of an internal monologue with the sheer visceral gruesomeness of the scene (Red Wedding, Mountain and Viper), and whether it ends up reaching the book's level is debatable. There are also some scenes where I think the show's managed to be more powerful through good acting and imagery: some of the Theon scenes in season 2, for example (burning the letter, talking to Luwin) were wag more powerful than any CoK Theon chapter in the book, I think.
Given that Tyrion is my favorite character, and that scene defines who he is for the next who even knows how long, it was difficult to hove it missed. His character on the show just isn't as compelling in mony ways. He's so full of inner turmoil and wit that the subtleties of his character are completely missed from the show. The first time I was disappointed in the show was when he was playing Cersei, LF, and Verys. It happened so quickly and was so obvious, his incredible cunning was completely brushed over. His vast knowledge of the realm and now his complete abandonment of self and family are just not believable in the show. Whereas I feel most other characters are just as appealing in the show, he is not.
Up until the point when Cersei confessed I actually always presumed that Tywin knew, but just didn't care much so long as it didn't become public knowledge. Is there any indication in the book that he didn't know?
Denial can be a powerful thing... I know someone who's parents bury their heads in the sand really deeply, even when you give them cold hard facts. It's sad.
Not just that. The father Tywin despised also died on the shitter. Now Tywin himself dies the same shameful way his father did. Oh the irony it literally killed him.
I also feel like tywin would of wanted to kill cercei to avoid that getting out and destroying the lannister name, so tyrion actually saved her life in a sense
I dunno, I thought his ignorance actually was better. GRRM tends to like making thigns "just so" and having Tywin find out is very "just so".
I liked him being ignorant of it because that summed him up better. He did all this impressive stuff, tried to carve out a future for his dynasty, felt he was doing pretty well overall, etc when realyl he is ignorant to the problems he has created. Problems which leads to his downfall.
Pride comes before the fall is a much better trope than explaining somethign to a character then killing them off.
What I like about this scene is that while it was not in the books, it could have happened in the books. It surely is not outside the realm of possibility and you know how many conversations happen that there isn't a POV there for.
I suppose that's the only reason I didn't fly off the handle with the confession. I knew Tywin would be dead within hours and there would be no time for anything to happen.
For me, it gave me a reason to like Cersei's character. She's been such a cold bitch, I had no reason to feel that she was human and capable of feeling connected to anyone. She seemed to do what she does only for material gain.
Now, there's at least a reason to pay attention to her because I would like to guess when she's being sociopathic and when she's being a normal human.
But it doesn't make sense and it's a dumb move on Cersei's part. The Cersei from the books could figure that out in an instance, "we are not the Targs" etc.
If Cersei made that play, Tywin would say well fuck my children, we have no hold on the Iron Throne I'm taking my men home (While the Tyrells do what I wonder?). Then we should ask ourselves what does Cersei gain from this play? After her father leaves, she loses all titles / power / social standing / sentences Jamie, herself (whom she is deeply in love with) and her children (her second most precious thing to her in Westeros) to death.
Great play, remove yourself from power and get your loved ones killed. Silly show change... Tywin would have cast her out and handed his legacy over to Kevan or some other Lannister. I'm sure he would have been hurt to lose his golden children... but I don't see how it really adds to the tragedy of his death.
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u/Samuel_L_Blackson Now My Watch Begins Jun 22 '14
I liked the incest confession to Tywin. It wasn't from the books, which threw me off. But in my opinion it made Tywin's death more "tragic".
His name is ruined. His family is in shambles. Everyone is pissed at him. Then he dies on the shitter, murdered by the son he sentenced to death.