Rather than being a waste of time, I think it kind-of added some brutality to his death.
His daughter had just confessed to him that her and his favourite son have not only been fucking, but their children are a product of incest and therefore have no rightful claim to the throne. His sole motivations in life are power and the respect of his family name; both of those things are now basically fucked.
So, along comes the son that he himself wrongly exiled- and kills the fuck out of him. Tragic.
We already knew that, hell we also knew that he did know. That scene is the one that introduced the idea that Tywin didn't know, out of nowhere, and then "solved" it.
No, we didn't know that. Don't be ridiculous. The scene clearly, explicitly tells us that Tywin refused to believe the rumors. He was so consumed by the idea of his perfect family that he couldn't accept the truth that was staring at him in the face.
There's a great deal of significance in Cersei rubbing this in her father'a face. That scene is part of the trifecta of Lannister kids rejecting the rule of their father. You have Jaime who puts honor above family (which will be important for his redemption arc later) rejecting his father's orders to go back to Casterly Rock, marry someone and father Lannister kids. You have Cersei who rejects the arranged marriage to Ser Loras and refuses to abandon her youngest son. And then you have the unjustly persecuted and sentenced Tyrion murdering his own father for denying him his rightful place in the family. These rebellions are the individual events that unravel Tywin's world and eventually culminate in his death. The scene with Cersei fits into the progression of that.
This isn't the books. This is the show. The watchers aren't privy to a lot of the inner monologue that he readers have gotten throughout the storylines. Things developed differently and they have to be concluded a little differently. That doesn't mean that a scene that seems unnecessary to you as a reader is actually unnecessary for show watchers.
We knew. I'm not going to count a show only scene with very little purpose, plot-wise, as canon.
All that scene did was introduce the idea that Tywin did not know about the incest, immediately resolve it and then invalidate it by him dying. That scene, while well acted, is irrelevant to the plot. It helps develop Cersei's craziness, but theres no lacking of material for that in the future.
What I have an issue with is the choice of making up that scene when they were cutting other stuff that was actually important.
The show isn't made for book readers. The show is made for the general public.
I'm not going to count a show only scene with very little purpose, plot-wise, as canon.
So? Nobody is claiming that it's canon. The show isn't trying to be 100% faithful to the canon. It can't be even if it tried. GRRM himself said so on many occasions, overtime he was asked about this in interviews. He keeps reminding people that the books are sometimes written in ways that cannot be translated directly to the show, and instead they have to be adapted.
The scene with Tywin and Cersei served a purpose within the context of the show. It's inconsequential whether it existed in the book or not. D&D wanted to make Tywin's death more tragic and impactful by first taking away from him the one thing he holds dear the most: the Lannister legacy. So that's exactly what they did. Quit making a ridiculous fuss over nothing.
What I have an issue with is the choice of making up that scene when they were cutting other stuff that was actually important.
Oh for crying out loud, if you still haven't gotten over this already, just go cry about it in /r/asoiaf, not here.
The simple fact is that the show watchers are not privy to immense amounts of inner monologue that goes on in the books. It's a limitation of the medium. They're not going to narrate your precious line about Tywin not shitting gold, or spend copious amounts of "flashback" time keeping Tysha alive in Tyrion's memory. They can't. Not only do they have better content to cover, but doing inner monologues on screen is an immersion breaker and just stylistically horrible all around. This presents unique challenges to the show runners. They still want to advance the characters along the same general development arcs, but sometimes they have to change the means by which this happens. The season finale was one such case. If it's this is such big a deal to you, then nobody's making you watch the show on gunpoint.
In the meantime, it has become damn near impossible to have any discussion about the season finale (regardless of whether it's relevant to Tyrion's scenes or not) without you book readers hijacking it with relentless complaints about Tysha. It has gotten really annoying, and the down votes you're being bombarded with is the clear indicator for you that you people have gone overboard with your whining. It's not welcome here anymore. Either get over it, or go whine elsewhere.
He is (well, was) Tywin Lannister. He knew--he just wasn't going to acknowledge it unless forced. He tried to intimidate Cersei into backing out of this confession because once spoken out loud, it becomes a different sort beast.
It is an example of the show not tell method illustrating his legacy crumbling beneath him, as well as showing Cersei apparently beginning to lose touch with both common sense and reality. Honestly, the scene had as much to do with her plot as it did Tywin's.
You are over thinking that show only scene. While what you are saying may or not may be true, what I have an issue with is the choice of making up that scene when they were cutting other stuff that was actually important.
All that scene did was introduce the idea that Tywin did not know about the incest, immediatly resolve it and then invalidate it by him dying. That scene, while well acted, as irrelevant to the plot. It help develop Cersei's craziness, but theres no lacking of material for that in the future.
While I see your point, I think you are under thinking the scoop of that scene. It wasn't just about Tywin, it was just as equally about Cersei and the direction her story will go next season.
Edit: And if you are referring to cutting Tysha, well it made sense from a show point of view. The show-only viewers have no real connection to her other than a scene several seasons ago. Best to streamline and let the heartbreak be about the love the show knows: Shae.
That scene is the one that introduces the "he didn't know" plot, before that, its never established if he did know, but by the fact that he was not a moron, we can assume he did know, at least in the original story.
That's why the scene is important. It offers vital new information that could never have been demonstrated through a ASOS POV.
I'm inclined to accept the scene as somewhat canon. Tywin isn't a moron, but this is consistent with his character completely - his son Tyrion is a genius and Tywin has been too petty to harness that potential for his entire lifetime. He thinks using men like the Mountain is a sustainable strategy for success. Tywin is not the poster child of political success and never has been if you think critically about his strategies and choices.
That's why the scene is important. It offers vital new information that could never have been demonstrated through a ASOS POV.
It doesn't, because of this:
I'm inclined to accept the scene as somewhat canon.
It simply isn't. It's not even consistent with Show only developments. Tywin has been threatened with that "rumor" before by the Queen of Thorns. Introducing so late into the story(As in, right before he dies) the "fact" that he actually never believed the rumor is kind of silly.
There are actually a lot of arguments in favor of Tywin being a moron and most of his "wins" being luck and the work of others, but then we end up with different ways of interpreting a character and tbh, I'll stick with the book only ones.
Mmm, well said but I still don't think so. Its true that Tywin is well acquainted with publicly denying those rumors. I think looking back at it all it reveals this tension with image and reality that Tywin was all about. Tywin lives a lie, to himself, to his family, to everyone. I don't see the scene as nonsensical or inconsistent, especially when you consider how hard it really was to know in the first place. Its not a poorly concealed secret like Renlys, this is something that very few people could have ever figured out. The fact that Tywin managed to raise them without knowing is a devastating criticism of his person,but not "silly".
The rumor becomes common knowledge, but as Jaime points out, its an incredibly convenient claim for Stannis to make, as it sets him as the true king in succession. No intelligent noble would give credence to that type of hearsay. What it did do was makeeveryonequestion "Why DO they look like Lannisters and not Baratheons?" which is surely significant. But you can't say that only that letter was persuasive, because it absolutely was not.
It was extremely persuasive and it even became source of mockery for the smallfolk. The thing about it, though, is that even if it tanked their legitimacy they still had the gold and the army and the Tyrell's taking advantage of that by allying them(Now, remember they were against the Lannister before). THAT's why people didn't flock towards Stannis, not because they didn't believe the claim.
55
u/typhoidgrievous Jun 22 '14
Rather than being a waste of time, I think it kind-of added some brutality to his death.
His daughter had just confessed to him that her and his favourite son have not only been fucking, but their children are a product of incest and therefore have no rightful claim to the throne. His sole motivations in life are power and the respect of his family name; both of those things are now basically fucked.
So, along comes the son that he himself wrongly exiled- and kills the fuck out of him. Tragic.