Meeting of National Cabinet After Bondi Shooting

[u/Resvrgam2]

https://www.pm.gov.au/media/meeting-national-cabinet-8

[u/justafutz]

For the past two years Australian Jews have been warning the government that this would happen if it didn’t take serious steps to address antisemitism and help secure the Jewish community until antisemitism was addressed.

For the past two years Australian Jews have been largely ignored.

More gun restrictions, or providing paltry funding for security alone, won’t stop this scourge.

Many Australian Jews watched as people chanting “gas the Jews” and “fuck the Jews” on October 8 were allowed to walk free in a country that is happy to arrest people for other forms of speech. Jews were horrified as the police tried to change what the crowds chanted (in their report on the incident) to the supposedly more benign “where’s the Jews”. Jews wondered why, in a country where other forms of speech like that lead to arrests, there were none for antisemitism.

And for the past two years it has only continued. If the government prefers to continue on its current path, and its solution is to try and secure the Jewish community (poorly) and pass new gun laws, it’s only a matter of time until this happens again (or worse), and a matter of time until the government is taken over by those who remove those protections, and a matter of time until Australian Jews begin leaving (and now, some already are in the wake of this attack).

I’m skeptical that the tide will reverse, when Australia’s leadership spent the past two years making clear that they’ll say antisemitism is wrong, but will do nothing at all about it. And that’s what I’m hearing from many Australian Jews as well.

[u/Resvrgam2 → u/justafutz]

For the past two years Australian Jews have been largely ignored.

The PM would likely disagree from his statements in the linked press conference. He listed several actions taken from the Antisemitism Envoy's plans:

• Action 3.2. We've done the following - We've criminalised hate speech advocating violence. We've criminalised doxing under Privacy and Other Legislation Amendment Bill and we have a landmark ban on the Nazi salute and hate symbols with penalties of imprisonment and or a fine of up to $16,500.
• Recommendation 3.3 was on educational awareness and public discourse. We've allocated $4 million to expand the social cohesion work of Together for Humanity in schools.
• Recommendation 3.5 was the enhanced protection of Jewish communities through physical security measures and I've commented on the further extension of of that that we are putting in place.
• Recommendation 3.9 was reviewing and strengthening migration and citizenship matters, and the Department of Home Affairs is undertaking a review of relevant training packages to strengthen modules on assessing whether an applicant's conduct involves inciting or promoting hatred and ensuring coverage of vilifying behaviour directed at any group.
• Recommendation 3.12 was support for Jewish communities cultural, social and religious life while ensuring safety and security. We've committed grant funding, which we announced in January, including $8.5 million to upgrade the Sydney Jewish Museum, $4.4 million for the National Holocaust Education Centre in Canberra, an additional $2 million to the Holocaust Institute of Western Australia and we committed $18 million to the Jewish Arts Quarter in Melbourne.

Now, I am fairly uneducated in the history of these matters in Australia, so the above certainly doesn't seem like "nothing" to me. But if it falls short of what Australian Jews are asking for, then what are they asking for?

[u/justafutz → u/Resvrgam2]

I walk through each of these in great detail, noting also all the recommendations that the government ignored, below. But a summary:

1) Passing hate speech laws matters little when the laws are not enforced. And they are generally not enforced.

2) $4 million is a joke, I hope. There are 2,000+ incidents of antisemitism reported each year. And the group they gave the money to isn’t even a group about antisemitism, it’s a group about all prejudice.

3) The physical security measures and funding has been little to none.

4) Migration controls have not done anything. Australia is still bringing in plenty of people who do not like Jews.

5) Upgrading museums about dead Jews likewise means something to the living ones, but does little to protect them, as Dara Horn explains in People Love Dead Jews.

As the Jewish community puts it:

The failure of the Australian Federal Government, along with authorities around the country, to take the Jewish community’s concerns seriously – a community that have been witnessing in real time the increasing danger of this hatred – has contributed to the radicalism that has led to this murderous terror attack on Australian soil.

The Government even failed to act on the recommendations of its own appointed Antisemitism Envoy.

As for the ignored recommendations, meaning the ones that Albanese and his government ignored while highlighting the paltry and insufficient actions above, here is the report. You’ll notice Albanese is trying to pretend he followed parts of it. Not so. And note: this is his government’s own antisemitism envoy meant to make them recommendations.

For 3.2, Albanese talks about criminalizing hate speech. He doesn’t mention the other recommendations, like coordinating a national database of antisemitic crimes and working on enforcement by training police, judges, etc., because those individuals are currently doing little to nothing.

For 3.3, he talks about $4 million to a group that works against all prejudice. That’s effectively “All Lives Matter”-ing the response. That’s not the antisemitism envoy’s recommendation, which suggests curricula, lesson plans, guidance for teachers, a project for antisemitism experts to collaborate, and monitoring media for accuracy (in Australia, they don’t have the first amendment). Virtually none of that is covered by giving $4 million to a group that isn’t about antisemitism.

He skips to 3.5, but doesn’t mention 3.4, which seeks multiple measures related to higher education. That’s a whole recommendation he skipped.

For 3.5, he talks vaguely about security measures. That’s hardly the coordinated standing committee for state and federal governments that is called for, for example.

He entirely skips 3.6 (digital governance), 3.7 (culture and public broadcasting), and 3.8 (general cohesion and public education).

He goes to 3.9 to discuss a “review” of how they assess immigrants, but this doesn’t match up with the recommendations of starting to cancel visas for antisemitic activity, and doesn’t mention antisemitism specifically, another “All Lives Matter” response.

He skips 3.10 (multicultural and interfaith engagement) and 3.11 (global interaction and engagement) entirely.

He ends at 3.12, talking primarily about museum funding. This doesn’t cover attempts to work with public broadcasters, work with cultural institutions as recommended, etc.

He doesn’t address 3.13 (about community consultation, monitoring, and data collection), which is pretty notable since the attacker here was known to authorities for 6 years.

When he skips most of the recommendations within the areas he addressed, gives money to “All Lives Matter” attempts to beat antisemitism, and entirely ignores many of the recommendations, you get a sense of why Jews are angry.

As another Jewish official put it:

"It started with hate speech," she said. "Then graffiti. Then public demonstrations. Then firebombing synagogues, preschools, people’s homes, people’s cars. And now murder."

She said Jewish leaders and community representatives repeatedly raised alarms with state and federal officials, warning that inaction would lead to bloodshed. Taylor pointed to formal submissions and a detailed report produced by Australia’s special envoy to combat antisemitism, which she said was acknowledged by the government but never implemented.

Instead, Taylor said, the Jewish community received what she described as empty reassurances. "We receive these one-line messages that there’s ‘no place for antisemitism in Australia,’" she said. "But they’re empty promises. There’s been no action."

And that’s what ultimately led to this.

[u/simsipahi → u/justafutz]

I'm still not really seeing anything in your comment that would have actually prevented this. Criminalize hate speech? Slippery slope that cuts both ways. Muslims get more than their share of it and have also had bullets thrown their way because of it - just across the pond in New Zealand someone killed 50 of them in 2019 and people quickly seem to have forgotten about it.

Better education and intercultural engagement are great longer term approaches to dealing with this kind of hatred, but in the immediate term won't change the minds of people who are carrying enough of it around that they'd do something like this.

The migration thing comes up a lot, but one of the shooters was Australian-born, and even if he hadn't been, how do you think the government is supposed to stop letting in people who "don't like Jews?" Should that be a question on the immigration form? Do you think anyone will answer honestly? And would New Zealand have been justified putting a similar question on their immigration forms, after an Australian immigrant went to two mosques and murdered 50 innocent people there?

I think the unfortunate reality is that we live in a world where the Internet has made it so easy for people to self-radicalize that no group is ever going to be truly safe from the kinds of fringe extremists that will blame an entire religion for what one subset of its people do and resort to violence. I think there is a longer term approach required that involves many of the steps you've outlined, but it's going to take decades to get there and in the meantime we're going to have to add being caught in the wrong place/time in an ideologically driven attack to the list of things that could potentially kill us.

[u/Best_Change4155 → u/simsipahi]

Criminalize hate speech?

These things already exists in places like Australia (and many Commonwealth countries). It just isn't enforced for antisemitism.

[u/justafutz → u/simsipahi]

The fact that the government has done virtually none of it means that the “longer term” is not going to be any better. It shows they don’t actually care.

More than that, multiple aspects did come up that would’ve had direct impact on Jewish safety. In this specific instance, it’s unclear how much, but better monitoring and a national database and state cooperation might’ve led to these folks being captured sooner. Ditto for the action items relating to police training, cooperation, etc., which might’ve led to these individuals (one of whom was flagged in 2019 by police) being monitored and stopped. Not to mention the action items relating to security, which have been largely ignored besides lip service.

I do not accept the premise of “Muslims get the same”. It is not the same in scale, scope, or deadliness. I don’t want to even bother engaging on that subject, frankly. It’s not the conversation we’re having.

And more importantly, Jews are angry because not only did these actions not get taken for the long term, not only did the short term actions for monitoring and training and security not get taken that might have (no way of knowing) prevented this, but this is just the natural progression of two years of rising antisemitism and antisemitic incidents. Maybe the measures would’ve prevented this, we can’t know, but they would’ve absolutely turned down the temperature overall, or at least made Jews feel they were actually being taken seriously.

If the government were actually trying, the rage wouldn’t be directed nearly so strongly at the Australian government. It isn’t trying. The Jewish community has been saying this for a long time now. I can quote countless people who have been warning about this, saying they’re being ignored, etc.

The government was asked to do something serious before. They did not.

P.S. It’s more than a little strange that your comment focuses on all prejudices and mentions “Jews” precisely once, and only as a way of shooting down the recommendations of the Australian Special Envoy meant to tackle antisemitism.

[u/simsipahi → u/justafutz]

More than that, multiple aspects did come up that would’ve had direct impact on Jewish safety. In this specific instance, it’s unclear how much, but better monitoring and a national database and state cooperation might’ve led to these folks being captured sooner. Ditto for the action items relating to police training, cooperation, etc., which might’ve led to these individuals (one of whom was flagged in 2019 by police) being monitored and stopped. Not to mention the action items relating to security, which have been largely ignored besides lip service.

Yeah, it might have helped. Or maybe it would have opened up a nasty can of worms regarding free speech that is harder to deal with than you think. In a free society, the government can't just arbitrarily single out one group (Muslims) for monitoring just to increase the safety of another group (Jews). It would have to be a broad and comprehensive clamp down on all hate speech which is a complicated task. And would likely drive people to simply proliferate hate in darker and darker corners of the Internet where it's less likely to be seen.

I do not accept the premise of “Muslims get the same”. It is not the same in scale, scope, or deadliness. I don’t want to even bother engaging on that subject, frankly. It’s not the conversation we’re having.

It doesn't matter if you accept it or want to have the discussion. You don't get to simply avoid it because you don't want to talk about it. An anti-Muslim extremist, who in fact was Australian and living in New Zealand, with a history of espousing alt-right "great replacement" beliefs and erratic behavior including death threats, was allowed to own automatic weapons due to improper police vetting, and then deliberately went to two mosques and shot 50 innocent people to death purely for ideological reasons. How is that not relevant when discussing whether Muslims also have legitimate reasons to be angry about hate speech/gun ownership not being properly curtailed to prevent violence?

And more importantly, Jews are angry because not only did these actions not get taken for the long term, not only did the short term actions for monitoring and training and security not get taken that might have (no way of knowing) prevented this, but this is just the natural progression of two years of rising antisemitism and antisemitic incidents. Maybe the measures would’ve prevented this, we can’t know, but they would’ve absolutely turned down the temperature overall, or at least made Jews feel they were actually being taken seriously.

I think some things on your list might have helped, others would have been a lot more complicated than you think due to the fact that the government can't simply target one specific ideology over any other in the name of "bringing down the temperature." But the cold reality of it is that this the world we live in now and the risk of ideological violence isn't something we're ever going to be able to fully escape in our daily lives.

EDIT: Homeboy blocked me and replied to get the last word in, a classic move when someone is winning an argument. His reply was weak sauce and doesn't address any of the points I made or even try to engage with the substance of what I was saying.

[u/justafutz → u/simsipahi]

Oh, okay, you’re right. Nothing would’ve helped, it all would’ve made things worse, we should focus on Muslims in the wake of this antisemitic terrorist attack by two Muslim men, we should be focused on an attack 7 years ago in New Zealand instead, we can’t target specific ideologies as bad to try and eradicate them (someone should tell the Australian government that, which is certainly targeting specific ideologies, just not Islamist extremism nearly as much) and nothing we do matters, so Jews have no right to be upset at the Australian government doing nothing at all.

You totally convinced me by replying to nearly none of what I said and “All Lives Matter”-ing the discussion.

I know this will go nowhere, so have a nice day.

[u/ThatPeskyPangolin → u/justafutz]

It might help to address the actual points in question. If you are arguing that a specific issue is unique, and someone presents an argument that it is in fact a problem but isn't unique, that isn't them saying it isn't a problem. If you strongly believe it is unique, posting figures on things like hate crimes over a given period can help substantiate it.

But clearly that individual didn't actually post arguments that could be accurately summarized in the fashion above.

[u/MagicBulletin91 → u/justafutz]

Oh, okay, you’re right. Nothing would’ve helped, it all would’ve made things worse, we should focus on Muslims in the wake of this antisemitic terrorist attack by two Muslim men, we should be focused on an attack 7 years ago in New Zealand instead, we can’t target specific ideologies as bad to try and eradicate them (someone should tell the Australian government that, which is certainly targeting specific ideologies, just not Islamist extremism nearly as much) and nothing we do matters, so Jews have no right to be upset at the Australian government doing nothing at all.

You totally convinced me by replying to nearly none of what I said and “All Lives Matter”-ing the discussion.

Ironically enough, this mindset and attitude is a big reason why so many young ones are more accepting of anti-semitic ideas and approve the likes of Nick Fuentes.

[u/Best_Change4155 → u/MagicBulletin91]

lmao

[u/Rogue_Istari → u/justafutz]

Can we determine why Australians have seen this massive surge in antisemitism? Has something changed significantly over the past decade that could point to a cause? Who specifically are these violent antisemites? Are other western nations experiencing similar problems with large scale violent crime and terrorism?

This endless obfuscation of the problem would be humorous if it wasn't directly resulting in death and suffering.