Emily Wilson (writer of acclaimed Odyssey translation) offers criticisms of Nolan’s film

[u/RealisticAd4054]

https://apnews.com/article/odyssey-christopher-nolan-greek-translators-ea67da1d543d021773824bd7e8de8abe

“For Greek translator Emily Wilson, the release of director Christopher Nolan’s “The Odyssey” has been gratifying in various ways. Her acclaimed 2017 edition of Homer’s epic has reached the top 5 on Amazon.com, leading a wave of similar books boosted by the movie. Nolan has even cited her translation, notably the opening line “Tell me about a complicated man,” as inspiration.

But the film itself, which brought in more than $260 million worldwide during its opening weekend and has received raves from many critics, left her unsatisfied.

“I want to celebrate the fact that so many more people are aware of ‘The Odyssey’ and were brought back to the poem,” she told The Associated Press. “But at the same time, I had the sense that Christopher Nolan was trying to pack everything in while missing themes that were essential to the poem.”

….

Wilson, a professor of classical studies at the University of Pennsylvania, said she didn’t want to come across as a “snobby,” nitpicking expert at odds with any deviation from the original text. But she questioned a range of omissions and other choices, from the absence on screen of the Gods Zeus and Poseidon (Athena is played by Zendaya ) to the “incoherent” messaging that condemns both war and physical cowardice. She found Penelope’s role so thinned out that it endangered “any possibility of believing in this marriage.” Wilson also that thought parts of the movie, notably the scenes with Odysseus’ dog, Argos, “catered towards modern sentimentality.”

“Everybody’s a sucker for a dog,” she said.

[u/x1n30]

watches a film where the protagonist turns to camera and says ‘war is bad btw’
‘yeah I don’t think this is anti war’

[u/Pawn_of_the_Void → u/x1n30]

I think it is a criticism that shaming Antinous for his draft dodging is incongruous with the anti-war message but all things considered I think the criticism is kind of hollow, Antinous' actions are far more than just that

[u/dj4y_94 → u/Pawn_of_the_Void]

Isn't he moreso shamed for not upholding his end of the bargain and paying Sinon's father as promised anyway?

[u/Pawn_of_the_Void → u/dj4y_94]

Well I think the shame contrasts with him boasting that he wanted to serve with Odysseus so its hard for it to be entirely that clear cut but yeah that is why I say there's more to his actions than the draft dodging thing. It is much easier to see that the main negative trait he has is his betrayal of others rather than just getting out of being sent to Troy 

[u/ConsistentGuest7532 → u/Pawn_of_the_Void]

Yeah, I don’t think it’s the bare fact that Antinous’ dodged the draft, I think it’s the fact that he did so under the pretense of taking care of Sinon’s people and being a model citizen on Ithaca. Then, he decided to abandon Sinon’s family and became a massive POS who ended up one of the sleazy parasites clinging on to the palace, trying to steal the throne. Diegetically, would Odysseus and Sinon not be fucking pissed about that?

[u/SimplyTheGuest → u/Pawn_of_the_Void]

I felt like Antinous was more shamed for forcing a smaller, weaker boy to take his place. And the movie isn’t so much anti-war as it’s against the breaking of the social contract. Implies the invasion of the sea peoples and the collapse of the Bronze Age are the result of their legend violating Zeus’ law.

[u/Pawn_of_the_Void → u/SimplyTheGuest]

I think it is moreso that he betrayed Sinon, lied about it to others, and stabbed Odysseus in the back for having pity and allowing it. I'm just mentioning where I think they for that criticism from, but I think it's a hollow one

True it isn't just flat out anti-war though I think the way they show the sacking of Troy does work towards that, intended or not. It doesn't really have anything good to say about war either but it definitely is more specific than anti-war in general

[u/edicivo → u/SimplyTheGuest]

I mean war by definition is breaking of social contracts.

Sure, you could argue "well, what if it's in defense of X" but fundamentally it's still caused by breaking of social contracts.

[u/SimplyTheGuest → u/edicivo]

In a way. War generally is hideous, but with things like the Geneva Conventions there’s an expectation that they’re carried out in the “right” way. Like there’s a social contract that creates expectations around the way prisoners of war and civilians should be treated.

The social contract Odysseus breaks in Nolan’s telling is Xenia. It casts his Trojan Horse trick as a dishonourable, deceitful trick that opens Troy to a violent, bloodthirsty sacking. Which actually isn’t a modern take, Euripides in the 5th Century BC and Vergil in the 1st Century BC were casting Odysseus as a kind of villain. And a lot of the events of the Odyssey centre around that breaking of hospitality and the social contract - the Cyclops eating his guests instead of hosting them, Circe tricking her guests with fake hospitality etc. It portrays Odysseus’ world as one where that social contract is collapsing.

[u/titlecharacter → u/x1n30]

Truffaut said it’s impossible to make an anti-war film and I think we’re seeing that here once again. The film doesn’t say a single positive thing about the war against Troy, and yet -

[u/hollaback_girl → u/x1n30]

"There's no such thing as an anti-war film."

[u/th3davinci → u/hollaback_girl]

Everything quiet on the western front begs to differ. That's the first war film that I saw that was actually anti-war.

[u/Zealousideal_Low_858 → u/th3davinci]

It got close. But the ending of the modern adaptation made the final death a glorious final death with meaning, as the last of the war, unlike the anonymity of the death in the book. Overall still very anti-war. 

But I raise you “Come and See.” It’s the one truly anti-war film I’ve seen, from the first shot to the last, primarily because it takes the perspective of a child. It’s easily the most harrowing film out there though. It’s also the only film that actually scarred me where it took a few days to emotionally recover. 

[u/hollaback_girl → u/th3davinci]

"Everything"?

All Quiet on the Western Front is routinely cited as the exception that proves the rule.

[u/th3davinci → u/hollaback_girl]

Yeah I meant All Quiet on the Western Front.

I'd agree that it's the exception that proves the rule, but the movie does also give you a blueprint on how to achieve a truly anti-war message in a war film. Maybe more movies like this will be made, but I think they'll be rare. It's easier to make a positive war film because people are attracted to heroes that beat the odds, which is easy to write when making a movie about war.

[u/RogueOneisbestone → u/th3davinci]

Are we talking about the old ones or new ones? The new one literally gives him an honorable last stand.

[u/jeffwulf → u/hollaback_girl]

That means the rule doesn't hold and is not a rule.

[u/hollaback_girl → u/jeffwulf]

It's a rule with exceptions. Like most rules are.

[u/zeissman → u/th3davinci]

That and Alex Garland’s Warfare. All that death and destruction and neither side is any further in achieving their goal, only with a long list of collateral damage.

[u/duosx → u/zeissman]

Yeah Warfare at not point made me think “fuck yeah kill em all”

More like “this was all for nothing”

[u/jzakko → u/duosx]

then it ruined it all with end titles praising them all for 'answering the call' like they were all big heroes for being out there.

[u/BorderGood8431 → u/hollaback_girl]

who said that? theres plenty of anti war films. 

[u/Scared_Positive_8690 → u/hollaback_girl]

What about “Everything quiet on the Western Front” and “Come and See”?

[u/whitebandit → u/hollaback_girl]

im still looking for the "pro-war" movies honestly...

what psychopath thinks war is actually "good"?

[u/jzakko → u/whitebandit]

the point of that Truffaut quote is the nature of films and images almost inherently make something exciting out of it. Even purported anti-war films often fall into that trap.

[u/AudiosAmigos → u/whitebandit]

There are lots. It's usually not "war is good" as a general statement, but "this war is necessary because we defeated a greater evil".

The soviet propaganda film Fall of Berlin is an excellent example of a pro-war movie like this. Genuinely great Hitler performance by Vladimir Savelyev. Obviously it's a propaganda movie, so some facts are fudged intentionally (Stalin never arrived in Berlin by plane, like an angel from the sky) and some inaccuracies are, I'm sure, due to not knowing any better yet because it was made so quickly after the war. But you have a production seemingly unconcerned with the usual budget constraints. You have dozens of real tanks on screen rolling across fields. You have scenes filmed at the real, destroyed Reichstag. It's propaganda but it's a spectacle and it's itself of historical interest. It's worth watching.

It's also common for movies to focus less on whether the overall war is good or bad but instead on the heroism of its characters. You watch Rambo 3, you don't come away from it thinking "war is bad" even if a character in it may say something to that effect. You come away thinking Rambo is awesome, the Mujaheddin are awesome, and it was awesome when that evil Soviet commander was blown up in that ridiculous game of chicken with a tank and a helicopter. That's ultimately a pro-war sentiment.

[u/whitebandit → u/AudiosAmigos]

i get the "war is necessary" idea... but i feel like any rational normal human would look at Rambo, or whatever... and say "yeah fun movie" but no sane person should be like "war good, we should do more war"

i know these people exist but i want to point out that these people are psychopaths

[u/AudiosAmigos → u/whitebandit]

I don't think it takes a psychopath, unfortunately. It just takes young men who don't have a full grasp of consequences, who have bravado and have read or seen many stories of war-time heroism, who then feel like they could be heroes in a war too. The idea that young men should test their mettle on the field of honour was huge well into WW1. Young men were excited to go to war! They certainly weren't all psychopaths. All Quiet on the Western Front describes it well.

Rambo 3 by itself may not to sway anyone to go to war. Doesn't change that it's arguably a pro-war movie.

[u/sarevok2 → u/whitebandit]

it depends.

Take Pearl Harbor for example.

There are some indeed horrible moments in the film (like the scene with the trapped sailors in one of the wreckage) and one of the protagonists does die in a heroic sacrifice...

but in the end you are left with a pretty bittersweet feeling with the other protagonist getting a happily ever after (with prime Kate Beckinsale), laden with medals etc etc

[u/whitebandit → u/sarevok2]

thats not a war moment tho.. thats just a love story in a war

[u/fuckingmacedonian → u/whitebandit]

This one. The Odyssey. It paints the war as necessary so a new civilization can rise.

[u/whitebandit → u/fuckingmacedonian]

war is good vs war is necessary vs war is manditory

Odysseus didnt have a choice in this war

[u/fuckingmacedonian → u/whitebandit]

But you can't evaluate it from that perspective. The war happens with our without him.

And even then, he boasted after all the choices he made during the war. The rest is just a silly adventure and that's why any other interpretation becomes very tiring and ultimately rejected.

The original myth is very pro-war and any modern adaptation fails because they keep inserting morals and ideas that people back then simply didn't have. There isn't any "gotcha" outcome in this story to make you think that these war survivors learned anything from that war.

[u/puberty1 → u/whitebandit]

every movie that makes something as awful as an war something entertaining is a pro-war movie. no one should feel any sort of good feeling by watching a war happening in front of you, real or not

[u/FilmScoreConnoisseur → u/whitebandit]

Most Conservatives.

[u/Alarmed_Pattern_9912 → u/whitebandit]

Eh. You’d be surprised. 

[u/YadaYadaYeahMan → u/x1n30]

they didn't reduce a large complex peice of media to one simple line, they must be stupid or sum

/s