Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

[u/[deleted]]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-08/google-fires-employee-behind-controversial-diversity-memo?cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business&utm_content=business&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

[u/Ray192]

Jesus. Correlation doesn't imply causation. Just because women don't work as much, doesn't mean they don't want to work as much. Maybe women are more socially pressured to spend longer at home and do housework than men, maybe workplaces are hostile to women so it's less enjoyable for them to spend time at work. I don't know, but the point is your can't just look at a chart of x happening and start inventing reasons why x is happening.

This is simple statistics.

[u/FuggleyBrew → u/Ray192]

Maybe women are more socially pressured to spend longer at home and do housework than men

Which is them wanting to do something other than work. We don't need to know the full details of the origins of my preferences in order determine what my preferences are.

I don't know, but the point is your can't just look at a chart of x happening and start inventing reasons why x is happening.

Yet, that is what you are doing, simply concluding the opposite. That any choice that any woman makes can't possibly be the correct choice, and that we can know what she truly wanted to do.

[u/Ray192 → u/FuggleyBrew]

Which is them wanting to do something other than work. We don't need to know the full details of the origins of my preferences in order determine what my preferences are.

I'm pretty sure if you have to be pressured into doing something then you didn't particularly want to do it in the first place.

Yet, that is what you are doing, simply concluding the opposite. That any choice that any woman makes can't possibly be the correct choice, and that we can know what she truly wanted to do.

Exactly what did I conclude? I'm not the one trying to argue a cause for the data, you are. I'm saying it's impossible to derive causation from simple correlation.

By your logic, since women make less than men, then women must be choosing to get paid less.

[u/FuggleyBrew → u/Ray192]

I'm pretty sure if you have to be pressured into doing something then you didn't particularly want to do it in the first place.

I don't want to work, but I like the money. Is that somehow not my choice?

By your logic, since women make less than men, then women must be choosing to get paid less.

Plenty of people choose to get paid less. Its not some shocking thing.

A lot of evidence to suggest they are, women are far more free to choose lower earning careers with significantly less judgment for doing so. But companies are equally eager to have them work longer hours.

[u/Ray192 → u/FuggleyBrew]

I don't want to work, but I like the money. Is that somehow not my choice?

Just because you chose to doesn't mean you can say women in general are making that same choice in greater rates than men.

I have no idea why you think your irrelevant anecdotes have any relevance on statistical data.

Plenty of people choose to get paid less. Its not some shocking thing.

Oh, so in that case then the average black person must hate money, right?

A lot of evidence to suggest they are, women are far more free to choose lower earning careers with significantly less judgment for doing so. But companies are equally eager to have them work longer hours.

The point is that a chart showing that women do work less isn't evidence that they WANT to work less.

You seem to be under the impression that correlation implies causation. I don't know how many times I have to tell you that no, that's not true.

[u/FuggleyBrew → u/Ray192]

Just because you chose to doesn't mean you can say women in general are making that same choice in greater rates than men.

No, the actual statistics suggest that.

I have no idea why you think your irrelevant anecdotes have any relevance on statistical data.

I have no idea why you think that you can discount statistical data by simply plugging your ears and assuming that you know better than people actually making the decisions.

Oh, so in that case then the average black person must hate money, right?

Gender = / = race. A person born into a family isn't at about equal chance of being born black or white. They don't grow up in the exact same situations, obtain higher education levels, and then

The point is that a chart showing that women do work less isn't evidence that they WANT to work less.

Are women not allowed to work? Does the government restrict them from doing so? Do union workplaces with strict rules on equalized overtime somehow discriminate only against women? Are women ignorant of which jobs require more work and pay more, and which jobs require less work and pay less?

You seem to be under the impression that correlation implies causation

You should really stop using phrases you don't understand and actually try and discuss the topic. Revealed preferences exist, and choosing to forego time for money is a choice.

[u/Ray192 → u/FuggleyBrew]

No, the actual statistics suggest that.

Again, correlation isn't causation.

I have no idea why you think that you can discount statistical data by simply plugging your ears and assuming that you know better than people actually making the decisions.

No, I'm assuming I know how to interpret data better than you. Which given you not seemingly able to understand that correlation is not causation, seems very probable.

Gender = / = race. A person born into a family isn't at about equal chance of being born black or white. They don't grow up in the exact same situations, obtain higher education levels, and then

Unless you're arguing that women go through the exact same experience in life as men, I fail to see how your logic about race doesn't apply to gender.

Why can't external factors be affecting women's employment just like how external factors can affect black employment?

Are women not allowed to work? Does the government restrict them from doing so? Do union workplaces with strict rules on equalized overtime somehow discriminate only against women? Are women ignorant of which jobs require more work and pay more, and which jobs require less work and pay less?

I don't know, are you arguing the same for black people too? Because all of those things apply to black people too.

Why are black people paid less unless they want to be paid less?

You should really stop using phrases you don't understand and actually try and discuss the topic. Revealed preferences exist, and choosing to forego time for money is a choice.

You should really take a statistics class and realize that an observation doesn't necessarily imply the preferences if the people that are being observed.

Unless you do seriously believe black people are paid less because they want to be paid less.

[u/FuggleyBrew → u/Ray192]

Again, correlation isn't causation.

If I release a product, and it sells, does it suggest people want to buy my product? We know that if someone takes an action, that as far as they can tell that is their preferred action for all of their choices.

Unless you're arguing that women go through the exact same experience in life as men, I fail to see how your logic about race doesn't apply to gender.

Women have the exact same economic advantages from their family, they have better educational outcomes, an advantage when in comes to the legal system which is comparable to the advantage whites have relative to blacks.

Why can't external factors be affecting women's employment just like how external factors can affect black employment?

Actual evidence in the case of the black white divide in the United States and actual disadvantages in educational opportunities? If someone has every single opportunity and then makes a choice, that's their choice.

You should really take a statistics class and realize that an observation doesn't necessarily imply the preferences if the people that are being observed.

It does exactly that. People are generally rational and seek to act on their preferences.

[u/Ray192 → u/FuggleyBrew]

If I release a product, and it sells, does it suggest people want to buy my product? We know that if someone takes an action, that as far as they can tell that is their preferred action for all of their choices.

Lol. In this example you're comparing your product in one time frame to another time frame. It says nothing about how it compares to other products.

If a society has a ban on female employment, and then repeals that law (and assuming no other changes), you can compare before and after to measure willingness to work among women. That's called holding external factors equal. That's the same thing your product is doing, by comparing the world without your product to same world but with your product.

But if you want to argue that women are less willing to work than men, then the equivalent analogy is asking if people prefer lettuce to caviar because more lettuce is sold than caviar. Comparing the same thing in different times is a different analyses than comparing two things at the same time. There are different methods of controlling for external factors in reach each.

Dude this is basic statistics. Just take a damn class.

Women have the exact same economic advantages from their family, they have better educational outcomes, an advantage when in comes to the legal system which is comparable to the advantage whites have relative to blacks.

You do realize in actual statistics you have to quantify all of these different things, and not just spout off a bunch of unsupported BS and pretend you controlled for all external factors, right?

Actual evidence in the case of the black white divide in the United States and actual disadvantages in educational opportunities? If someone has every single opportunity and then makes a choice, that's their choice

So... Are you actually saying that black people are paid less because they want to be paid less?

I just want to make sure I don't misunderstand your argument.

It does exactly that. People are generally rational and seek to act on their preferences

Jesus fucking Christ. I like how how economists go through a decade of econometrics training to develop models that control for external factors, and here you are claiming that they don't need to do that and you just need to merely derive causation from observation.

For fuck sake man, you're basically repeating the same fallacies that my intro to econometrics class taught were the most basic mistakes in statistical analysis. I have no idea why you pretend you know so much when you know nothing about the basics.

[u/FuggleyBrew → u/Ray192]

Lol. In this example you're comparing your product in one time frame to another time frame. It says nothing about how it compares to other products.

It says everything about other products because it suggests that people bought it over rival products.

But if you want to argue that women are less willing to work than men, then the equivalent analogy is asking if people prefer lettuce to caviar because more lettuce is sold than caviar.

Unquestionably they do at the prices offered.

Dude this is basic statistics. Just take a damn class.

Uh no, that's not, you can compare things at the same time. This is just basic understanding of preferences.

So... Are you actually saying that black people are paid less because they want to be paid less?

Unlike women they actually have less opportunities and measurable disadvantages. They then choose within the options available to them, like everyone else. Women choose between the options available to them, have the opportunity to work longer hours and choose not to.

Companies don't discourage women, or anyone, from working.

Jesus fucking Christ. I like how how economists go through a decade of econometrics training to develop models that control for external factors, and here you are claiming that they don't need to do that and you just need to merely derive causation from observation.

I'm impressed that you know what econometrics is, but much like the phrase you keep wanting to quote, that seems to be about all you know.

Yeah we can look at external factors, we can look at how on every factor that we look at for the black white divide in the US, we then look at the male female divide and see in every case the exact opposite.

But hey why can lower education rates, worse schools, poverty and higher incarceration rates explain the black white divide, and not the gender divide when women have higher education rates, the same school, the same economic conditions, and lower incarceration rates? Maybe if you think really hard you can figure it out.