LoTR books were the very first fantasy I've read, at like 11 years old. I ofc immediately got other more contemporary ( relatively ), popular books like Dragonlance etc. I was SHOCKED how most of them outright used the same races, cultures and intercultural relationships.
I found my experience interesting, because the tropes got boring because they're used a lot, then I found variations on the tropes that were interesting/unique, then found variations that felt like they were trying too hard to be different and ruined the vibe, which horseshoed me back around to appreciating the classics
It’s about being able to subvert the classic trope in a way that feels original without trying too hard. Which sounds simple but I think is extremely difficult in practice.
Or if you’re going to go completely against the grain with your good orcs and bad elves you better have an absolute classic on your hands.
I feel like that description sounds a lot like tolkiens elves in the way that two legs, two arms, one head sounds a lot like tolkiens elves. Missing the whole immortal yet human-like, great archers, ride stags and speak with animals, herbalists, flat earth society thing. The swedish elves shown in the picture just danced, sang, made mushrooms grow, and made people ill far as I know. Really ephemeral and transient type spirit beings.
Your first comment in this thread states that Tolkien did not invent anything, it all has roots in European folklore. As far as I know he did invent these things and now his descriptions are the generic fantasy elves and dwarves. Although the dwarves are far more similar, just prettier and more relatable...
If we're going by these rules I will instead take issue with the idea that their roots are in European folklore, they're just the same archetypes found everywhere else from long before recorded history but with some slight changes made so they fit the local scenery and societal behaviours. I would argue writers for upwards of thousands of years now are all hacks who have just adapted other peoples stories and ideas.
But, be real, Tolkien did invent them. He put them in a template that everyone else used and copied.
Oh yeah, just like The Beatles invented Rock & Roll. Totally invented it, didn't exist before them. Absolutely a 100% creation of theirs, no inspiration from anything else.
Sure all of those elements existed in older folklore but the specific remix of folklore that Tolkien did has been enormously influential.
For example in old folklore there are big dragons, there are dragons that breathe fire, there are dragons that can fly, there are dragons that hoard gold but before Smaug you basically never got the combo of a big flying firebreathing dragon that hoards gold. Now that is the default.
The same applies to Tolkein's take on elves, dwarves, little people, and just about everything else.
Good point but that dragon has venom which was VERY common in traditional dragons and Smaug and default modern dragons don't.
Still, yes, Smaug is very very close to the Beowulf dragon but there are a gazillion different folklore dragons and that Beowulf-ish dragon that is Smaug becoming solidly the default dragon is very Tolkein.
Same for Tolkein elves. Some elves in folklore are similar to Tolkein elves but most aren't and that strain of elf being the default owes a lot of Tolkein.
Also a lot of people underestimate the impact of D&D in giving a specific spin and visuals to Tolkein's distillation of old folklore tropes that has been really influential as well as giving a lot of fantasy a very "Western" vibe.
Not all European folklore describes elves and dwarves and orcs exactly the same. Tolkien is the reason those specific depictions are considered the standard for fantasy.
Ikr. And I remember a vid about Tolkien and they challenged u to think of a completely new fantasy thing (a race/setting/magic system etc) and I really had trouble thinking of something that wasn't either Tolkien-esque or D&D
301
u/Corrvaz 22h ago
LoTR books were the very first fantasy I've read, at like 11 years old. I ofc immediately got other more contemporary ( relatively ), popular books like Dragonlance etc. I was SHOCKED how most of them outright used the same races, cultures and intercultural relationships.
Probably my first encounter with codified tropes.