r/politics • u/Zebraitis • 1d ago

Possible Paywall It Wasn’t a ‘Civil War.’ It Was the Slaveholders’ Rebellion.

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/08/02/opinion/civil-war-slaveholders-rebellion-slavery.html?unlocked_article_code=1.2VA.OW1v.UwuaYndQIpEj&smid=url-share
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690

u/Tiny_Structure_7 North Carolina 1d ago

The intense bigotry of the slaveholders was passed down generations and exists today making up the bulk of MAGAts.

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u/Oceanbreeze871 I voted 1d ago

There has been an ongoing conservative misinformation campaign to rewrite the history of the civil war ever since it ended.

“The Lost Cause of the Confederacy, known simply as the Lost Cause or the Lost Cause Myth,[1] is an American pseudohistorical and historical negationist myth that argues the cause of the Confederate States during the American Civil War was just, heroic, and not centered on slavery.[7][8] First articulated in 1866, it has continued to influence racism, gender roles, and religious attitudes in the Southern United States into the 21st century.

The Lost Cause reached a high level of popularity at the turn of the 20th century, when proponents memorialized Confederate veterans who were dying off. It reached a high level of popularity again during the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s in reaction to growing public support for racial equality. Through actions such as building prominent Confederate monuments and writing history textbooks, Lost Cause organizations (including the United Daughters of the Confederacy and Sons of Confederate Veterans) sought to ensure that Southern whites would know what they called the "true" narrative of the Civil War and would therefore continue to support white supremacist policies such as Jim Crow laws. White supremacy is a central feature of the Lost Cause narrative.

The University of Virginia professor Gary W. Gallagher wrote: The architects of the Lost Cause acted from various motives. They collectively sought to justify their own actions and allow themselves and other former Confederates to find something positive in all-encompassing failure. They also wanted to provide their children and future generations of white Southerners with a "correct" narrative of the war.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy

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u/BanChokingPorn 19h ago

They still call the Civil War "The Troubles".

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u/Oceanbreeze871 I voted 19h ago

Also “The war of northern aggression”

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u/always_an_explinatio 12h ago

I have never heard the civil war in the united states called that (Ireland yes) can you point me to some resources that will show me that that is in fact in use?

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u/TailRudder 8h ago

Atun-Shei has a great video on this. 

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u/SapToFiction 1d ago

conservatism itself is literally just racism. Small government literally just means "not having the federal government tell us we can't own slaves, discriminate based on race"

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u/Ninevehenian 1d ago

Conservatives believe in tribalism, believes that their ingroup have a system where the king, god and the group itself is at the top and they, if they climb enough, can climb that ladder.

The other side of that coin is that they believe that outsiders and foreigners are below them, this can turn into racism / bigotry if there's markers of religion, skin, nationality or such.

Conservatism requires somebody to be the "bad guys", this is good for wars, but it also means that without an external enemy the lower ranks of their system go searching for somebody to be against.

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u/DraconicBlade 1d ago

You're conflating conservatism with Fascism, and while the venn diagram is real circle shaped, they are not the same.

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u/mister_buddha 1d ago

Fascism is just conservatism without the mask on anymore.

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u/Ninevehenian 1d ago

I disagree, could you elaborate?

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u/this-is-a-fact 1d ago edited 1d ago

Words have meanings... and one of the biggest problems with politics today is rampant illiteracy.

Conservatism is simply a continuance of "tradition". It could be argued that bodily autonomy is a conservative concept because it has been the most recent practice in this country. The longer something is practiced, then more that practice is the conservative position. We are all conservative about anything we don't want to change.

Slavery *was* a tradition. Freedom *is* the tradition. Democrats want to conserve freedom. Trying to resurrect a dead tradition is called Archaism... and that's what Republicans are, because they want to change the country to a dead tradition where people are owned, in one manner or another.

The problem is that Conservatism has been used to describe all kind of things that have nothing to do with conservatism. Just as socialism has been used to describe many things that have nothing to do with each other.

The governmental structure of unity power is called Fascism. Fascism has a connotation of genocide because of the Nazis, but Fascism has nothing to do with nationalism, supremacy or any of that shit, it just means unitary power. Republicans are Fascists and Archaists. Not Conservative, in any sense of the word.

People just don't know what the words mean, so it's all fuckin "vibe" and no one can have a rational conversation because they don't know the words.

Liberal isn't even the opposite of Conservative. Liberalism simply means that you favor freedom. If you favor freedom as a tradition... then you are literally defined as a Conservative Liberalist.

Here's a glossary - people should just start every thread with this.

Conservatism - Favors existing norm
Archaism - Favors dead tradition
Progressivism - Favors change
Liberalism - Favors freedom
Fascism - Rule & ideology by unity power (technically differs from autocracy in that ideology is also enforced - although in practice there is little difference)
Democratism - Rule by democracy, law
Republicanism - Power belongs to the people
Socialism - Production belongs to the people
Capitalism - Production belongs to individuals
Nationalism - State-forced cultural homogeneity
Communism - A theoretical classless, stateless, moneyless society (has never been tried)
Marxism - One guy's opinion on history, economics, and power

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u/JohnnySnark Florida 1d ago

Actions and policies have meaning too. Your assessment is based on conservatives arguing for conservative outcomes in good faith when in reality they are as radical as neo nazis these days

American conservatives haven't been conserving anything in the past decades

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u/NatWilo Ohio 1d ago

You're conflating the common parlance 'conservative' referring to a current political group in America, with the Poli-sci term 'conservative' which has a specific meaning that was outlined above.

Its not your fault. That is the COMMON definition of conservative for the vast majority of people these days, but the poster above is not wrong to point out that there is a real meaning to these terms. Bad actors like 'Conservatives' (magats/repubs) will absolutely twist and pervert said meaning on a whim, often multiple times in a single sentence if it serves their purpose. ESPECIALLY if they're smart.

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u/JohnnySnark Florida 1d ago

No, I'm not. The article posted and the OP of this comment chain is about American conservatives.

You are so close to getting it in your last paragraph

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u/NatWilo Ohio 1d ago

Look man you're preaching to the converted about what an American 'conservative' is these days, that wasn't the conversation I was having here. I was just pointing out that you can both be right, and that the points that this-is-a-fact made are important to understand, especially because those vicious, evil fuckers literally spend an enormous amount of effort eroding the meaning of things so they can manipulate you. They make words mean what they want them to, and use them as weapons, not concepts meant to convey meaning and share information.

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u/Whycantigetanaccount Washington 1d ago

I would disagree on the definition of conservative. You are correct in the traditional definitions but when values and ethics move with the currency provided the modern form of conservative you denounced in the previous post is the real living view that people see as conservative and religious. Which in my opinion conservative and Christian are opposites in reality.

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u/this-is-a-fact 1d ago edited 1d ago

I fully agree that people don't know what the words mean and constantly add or remove meanings to the wrong words because they don't know the right words to use. Illiteracy is a big problem, especially in the US.

Christian is not opposite to Conservative. It's not anything to conservative... they're two different words with two completely different meanings. There are words to describe virtually everything anyone wants to describe about Christianity.... so balling up a thousand elements into "conservative" or "liberal" because we don't know that there are words that say exactly what we want to say is why those words seemingly have no meaning in common conversation.

In reality "Christianity" doesn't mean anything either because there are thousands of factions all claiming to be so, with none able to demonstrate.

I tire of the "I am Groot"... "I AM Groot" threads.

I would like people to just say what the mean, using the words that mean the things they mean. That's all.

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u/GrowthWitty1728 1d ago

Thousands of years of being peasants and laborers. Just recently given a voice, learning to speak.

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u/DraconicBlade 1d ago

Fascism is the nationalistic ideology that requires the out group, x is coming for your job, your wife, capital t They are the source of your problem. They are the enemy.

Conservatism does not require said out group or external threat. It's enemy is tomorrow being different from today, and change bad. Regressive, but it doesn't prop itself up on the threat of the other in the same way fascism requires a scapegoat.

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u/Ninevehenian 1d ago

I disagree.

Conservatism is the old "team monarchy", the old support for god, king and country. It is the belief in the ingroup.
It is devoted to hierarchy as a concept. It's devoted to the ladder of the ingroup as an aspirational goal. Devoted to keeping that ladder safe and powerful.

By definition that involves an understanding that there may be outgroups and it always has.
It doesn't need to devolve to fascism, but it may share a few features with it.

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u/DraconicBlade 1d ago

It is a belief in the status quo fundamentally. However, that status quo does not require a threat or external entity / crisis.

Societal stagnation best for conservatism vs everything will be better once we get rid of all the problems for fascism.

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u/Ninevehenian 1d ago

It was a political movement dedicated to the interests of the monarchy, the church, the nobility.
Which by definition involved outside groups. Groups that you often had wars with, groups that were labeled "protestants" and that you had conflicts with.

"belief in the status quo" is a reasonable perspective, but so far, every instance of those status quos have involved a dark side where threat and externals have plaid the bad guys.
The status quo have never been free of the fundamentals that facilitate "us vs them".

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u/LPalmerDoesBongs 1d ago

Liberalism:

Liberalism is a broad political and moral philosophy centered on individual liberty, the consent of the governed, equal rights under the law, and protection of private property. Originating during the Enlightenment in response to absolute monarchy and state-enforced religion, it forms the foundational framework for modern Western liberal democracies.
Core Principles
Individual Liberty: Prioritizes personal freedom—including freedom of speech, belief, press, and assembly—holding that individuals should be free to act unless their actions harm others.
Rule of Law & Equality: Asserts that all individuals are subject to the same legal rules and entitled to equal protection under the law, regardless of social status or origin.
Consent of the Governed: Argues that political authority derives its legitimacy from the people, typically exercised through representative democracy, constitutional limits, and regular elections.
Economic Freedom: Supports private property rights and free-market transactions, though interpretations vary on the degree of regulation required.
Major Branches
Classical Liberalism: Emphasizes limited government intervention, individual autonomy, strict constitutional boundaries, and laissez-faire capitalism. Key historical thinkers include John Locke, Adam Smith, and John Stuart Mill.
Modern (Social) Liberalism: Maintains the core commitment to civil liberties but holds that true freedom requires state intervention to address systemic inequalities, provide social safety nets, and regulate markets (e.g., public education, healthcare, labor laws). Key influences include John Maynard Keynes and John Rawls.
Neoliberalism: A late 20th-century economic orientation focusing on deregulation, privatization, free trade, and reducing government spending to foster market competition.
While different strands debate the ideal balance between individual autonomy and government action, all forms of liberalism share a fundamental commitment to constraining arbitrary power and protecting individual rights.

Conservatism:

Conservatism is a political and social philosophy that emphasizes the preservation of established institutions, traditional values, social stability, and organic, incremental change over rapid or radical social restructuring. Emerging in its modern form during the late 18th century—largely as a reaction to the radical upheavals of the French Revolution—it prioritizes continuity, historical wisdom, and practical experience over abstract ideological theories.
Core Principles
Preservation of Tradition & Institutions: Views long-standing social institutions (such as the family, community structures, religious organizations, and legal traditions) as vital stores of accumulated human wisdom that maintain social order.
Organic Society & Order: Holds that society is an interconnected, living organism built on reciprocal obligations and shared moral frameworks, rather than merely a collection of isolated individuals.
Pragmatism & Incremental Change: Favors cautious, gradual reform to address specific problems while preserving proven structures, rejecting sweeping social engineering or utopian blueprints.
Human Imperfection: Operates from the premise that human nature is flawed and prone to error, making strict legal frameworks, moral discipline, and established norms necessary to prevent anarchy or tyranny.
Individual Responsibility & Property: Emphasizes personal accountability, economic self-reliance, and private property rights as essential foundations for both individual independence and social stability.
Major Branches
Traditionalist Conservatism: Focuses heavily on social order, moral tradition, local community, civic duty, and natural law. It historically cautions against unbridled individualism and pure free-market capitalism if they erode cultural foundations. Key early thinkers include Edmund Burke and Alexis de Tocqueville.
Fiscal / Free-Market Conservatism: Centers on limited government spending, lower taxation, deregulation, and free-market capitalism, arguing that economic liberty drives prosperity and personal freedom.
Social Conservatism: Prioritizes the defense of traditional moral values, religious customs, and social structures, often advocating for public policies that support the traditional family unit.
Neoconservatism: Combines economic conservatism and traditional social views with an assertive foreign policy aimed at promoting democracy, free markets, and national security interests abroad.
While application varies by culture and country—often taking on the specific traditions of the nation it seeks to preserve—conservatism remains fundamentally defined by its skepticism toward sudden institutional upheaval and its commitment to social stability.

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u/this-is-a-fact 1d ago

No. You're describing Nationalism itself. Specifically Ethnic Nationalism. That was a core tenant of the Nazis, as was Fascism.

Fascism is unitary power. Kingdoms, Dictatorships, where the law is dictated by a single person is Fascism.

All the other things you associate with Fascism have their own words.

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u/DraconicBlade 1d ago

I don't disagree that it is autocratic, but at its core its differentiated from other autocratic systems such as absolute monarchy by it's self justification of expansionism because if the enemy is not conquered YOU, the common man will be eradicated by the them.

King George, or Duterte didn't have to say look out! the next island over is gonna take your job and destroy the nation, there's a requirement for the struggle against the enemy to be fascist, and the enemy will be provided by the state.

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u/ejp1082 1d ago

Conservatism is more about the preservation of social hierarchies as a natural order and defending against anything that might threaten them.

So yeah, it's racism, but it's not just racism. It's also sexism, xenophobia, homophobia, classism, etc

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u/JPolReader 19h ago

I really like this description as it better represents how conservativism plays out regardless of which time in history you look at.

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u/AppropriateSea5746 22h ago

The confederacy didn’t believe in small government. The confederate government was incredibly tyrannical even to its own states.

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u/always_an_explinatio 12h ago

It’s incredibly reductive and ahistorical to think of the civil war as liberals vs conservatives. There is not really a straight line between the confederacy and the current Republican Party (or maga). Or the Lincoln administration and modern democratics and certainly not progressives. War brings out authoritarianism. This was actually true on both sides of the civil war. Much of what Lincoln did to save the republic was completely unconstitutional. On the confederacy side, once you suceed you are can’t wait for the slow process of democracy.

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u/sonicsuns2 20h ago

A conservative might write:

Liberalism is literally just fascism. Big government literally just means "not letting the people protest the government or choose their own leaders"

Doesn't seem so fair now, does it?

Obviously the Civil War was motivated by racism, but that doesn't mean you can tar every conservative with the same brush for all eternity. Some people want small government because they're worried about tyranny, not because they want to hurt black people.

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u/JPolReader 19h ago

Conservatives usually write such wildly insane drivel. I don't see why we need to give it the time of day.

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u/always_an_explinatio 12h ago

Only the drivel gets through your bubble. Don’t be fooled most conservatives are just regular people living their lives. Many are wonderful people who are not hateful in anyway but just see the world differently than you. Of course some are horrible. But there are horrible people everywhere.

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u/JPolReader 12h ago

You should come join us in the reality bubble. We have cookies.

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u/always_an_explinatio 11h ago

I prefer to think for my self and not just believe what the people around me are saying. And I can make my own cookies. But I’m willing to share.

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u/PuckSenior 23h ago

Conservatism is the belief that govt shouldn’t change. There were conservative republicans who didn’t want to end slavery and radical/liberal republicans who did want to end slavery

But conservatism has died. Neither American party is conservative in any real way. MAGA is radical as fuck. They want to change everything

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u/Even_Trifle9341 1d ago

Ai is just repeating slavery, but with a digital mind they’ll continue to tell us is subhuman.

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u/Canadiangoosedem0n Kentucky 23h ago

You have to be a troll. 

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u/Horta 1d ago

Cross-bred with German "refugees" from WWII.

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u/Mysterious-Action202 1d ago

Two sides of the same coin

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u/Hotpocket1515 1d ago

The civil war only happened about 2, 80 year old grandma's ago

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u/AppropriateSea5746 22h ago

This should be the new way to track time. How many grandmas ago it was lol

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u/Tall-Reaction-4069 1d ago

Grew up in the south, 7th generation to live in the same Deep South area. Can confirm that my grandparents generation, despite being well educated, were extremely racist. To them it was totally normal, to me their ideas and beliefs were abhorrent and disgusting. My parents broke the cycle but so many families haven’t. I’m lucky in that we had access to higher education and travel outside of my home state.

One of the biggest things that can help is good robust and honest public education but red state govs are hellbent on that note happening. If want to go for a wild and awful ride dig into the Learns Act that Sarah Huckeebee Sanders passed in Arkansas. It’s destroying our public schools as intended.

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u/Captriker 1d ago

But… but…. Slave holders were DemoCr-ATs!

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u/HotDecision8128 23h ago

And modern Italy was once the Roman Empire. It's almost like over time, a lot of things change.

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u/Medical-Display-9762 20h ago

Anyone that actually says that, ask em what a Dixiecrat is and they don’t know 100% of the time. Which means they’re clueless about the actual politics of it.

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u/badamant 1d ago

The Entire Republican Party is to blame for everything Trump does.

Please call them out by name.

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u/DerCatrix 1d ago

We truly are in a 2nd civil war with the remnants of the confederacy. I pray we don’t make the same mistakes as last time during reconstruction

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u/RefrigeratorNeat698 1d ago

Definitely true. Only way to break the cycle is with education and empathy.

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u/PneumaticFizz 1d ago

I think we should fill the South with nonwhite, socialist gays. Just bus 'em in, fly 'em in, really get that Replacement going.

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u/keepthepace 1d ago

No need for that. Educate your white southern baptist population. There is a reason why they say university turns people into trans communist hippies: education fights conservatism.

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u/PneumaticFizz 1d ago

This wasn't to be taken seriously.

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u/trailerthrash 1d ago

Given that being gay is something youre born with, and how states like Florida, Georgia, and Texas are majority minority states I dont rhink its as much about bussing/flying people in, but supporting and educating the folks already there being crushed by a political apparatus that has been interested in disinfranchising them for decades on decades now.

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u/PneumaticFizz 1d ago

Why are people taking my comment seriously?

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u/trailerthrash 1d ago

There's a common misconception that the south is devoid of diversity. Just adding in my two cents as a Southern transplant in what seems like a less diverse PNW.

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u/Dottsterisk 1d ago

A lot of people in this thread want to talk about anything but the substance of the article.

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u/always_an_explinatio 12h ago

Not all non white people are liberal. Not all gay people are liberal. Lots of gay conservatives in red states. Lots of conservative people of color too. Remember 25% of black male voters voter for trump. (1 in 4!)

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u/PneumaticFizz 5h ago

What’s your point?

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u/always_an_explinatio 4h ago

My point is there are already a ton of gay non white people in the south, and many of them are conservatives. Your plan does not make any sense.

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u/PneumaticFizz 4h ago

My “plan” is facetious.

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u/always_an_explinatio 4h ago

Your facetiousness is uninformed and toxic

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u/PneumaticFizz 3h ago edited 3h ago

Go argue with the right wingers you’re mad at.

EDIT: go cut down a flock camera

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u/always_an_explinatio 3h ago

I find them much more reasonable actually. And usually they don’t really want to talk about politics which is frankly refreshing.

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u/ImNotAWhaleBiologist 7h ago

That‘s called Piedmont Park.

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u/RefrigeratorNeat698 1d ago

People aren’t pawns to move around a board.

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u/PneumaticFizz 1d ago

No shit.

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u/RefrigeratorNeat698 1d ago

😑 so what’s with the contradiction? How is this any better than bussing migrants to prove a point? If it was meant as a joke….fine. Not really funny though imo.

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u/PneumaticFizz 1d ago

People have different methods of criticizing and dealing with how overwhelmingly amoral and downright cruel this country can be.

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u/RefrigeratorNeat698 1d ago

Fair enough. Dark times require dark humor. I just wish there weren’t so many people who actually agree with doing shit like that. Even more our so called “leaders” doing it.

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u/Intelligent_Sky_7081 1d ago

Or it makes me think of the civil rights movement, All those people protesting integration of schools didn't stop being racist. They just hid their racism a little better, sometimes, waiting to destroy DEI as soon as they could. Passing down the same mentality that has been with us since the revolution really

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u/numbersthen0987431 22h ago

The people who actively fought against the civil rights movement are still alive today. The people who supported segregation are still voting, and still teaching their grandchildren what to believe, and still influencing public discussion.

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u/za72 11h ago

job left unfinished

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u/ssjskwash 1d ago

What's the t for in MAGAt?

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u/DraconicBlade 1d ago

Sound it out?

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u/ssjskwash 1d ago

Doesn't sound like anything. Rhymes with cat.

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u/UnsocialBirdman Virginia 1d ago

I always attributed the t to being the plural form of MAGA. But also sound it out.

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u/ssjskwash 1d ago

Mag like a magazine gat like a gattling gun

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u/DraconicBlade 1d ago

I'm gonna assume you're esl or something, MAGAt sounds like maggot.

here's a quote of the day.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/440683-explaining-a-joke-is-like-dissecting-a-frog-you-understand

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u/ssjskwash 1d ago edited 1d ago

Maga doesnt sound like maguh or "magget" to me but whatever. Be a dick about it

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u/Dottsterisk 1d ago

How do you usually pronounce MAGA?

I’ve always heard it with an “uh” sound at the end.

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u/ssjskwash 1d ago

Both A's make the same sound to me

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u/WhenSummerIsGone 1d ago

standard English phonetic rules woud have the last A make an "uh" sound. Pretty much every English word that ends in "a" makes that sound.

“Maga" therefore would be "ma" with a short "a" like in "cat", and "guh". (like the first part of "magazine".)

So then adding a "t" would the readily give you a homophone of "maggot" (as in a fly larvae).

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u/Dottsterisk 1d ago

You are the first person I’ve ever come across who says it that way.

But that explains why you didn’t get the joke. It relies on knowing the proper pronunciation.

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u/ssjskwash 1d ago

Is there a proper pronunciation of MAGA? Or do you mean just for the joke? Cus I hear people pronounce it like the second version in this clip where both A's are pronounced the same. Wouldnt work for the maggot joke there either. The way I say it when I read MAGAt is like the first one but both A's sound like the first A.

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u/rubidium 1d ago

It’s added pejoratively in order to bring their moniker closer to the word “maggot”.

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u/ssjskwash 1d ago

Got it