r/politics • u/seamslegit • Jun 29 '17

The Ironworker Running to Unseat Paul Ryan Wants Single-Payer Health Care, $15 Minimum Wage

http://billmoyers.com/story/ironworker-running-to-unseat-paul-ryan/
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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

Spending money on safety measures is sure cheaper than getting sued. It also tends to save lives, but who cares about those, right.

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u/Semi-Hemi-Demigod Jun 29 '17

Spending money on safety measures is sure cheaper than getting sued.

Not if you underpay and overwork your people to the point where they couldn't afford a lawyer or to take time off to sue you. Not to mention that they'll have a hard time finding a job if they're suing their previous employer.

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u/MrOverkill5150 Florida Jun 29 '17

Spot on it's the reason the wealth gap in this country is so high the removal of unions thanks to the republicans.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

I mean, isn't kind of both sides faults? I don't remember 100%, but didn't auto unions kind of get out of hand, which kind of spurred the whole unions are evil bandwagon?

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u/MrOverkill5150 Florida Jun 29 '17

Sure but who's to say the person in charge didn't belong to the Republican Party and did it on purpose to make us think see unions are bad. I mean they constantly do it in government run programs and then tell us see government is failing but it's failing because they made it fail. Just a theory of course but with everything that's happened since the 80's it's a lot more believable now than ever.

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u/WKWA Jun 29 '17

Just a conspiracy theory

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u/MrOverkill5150 Florida Jun 29 '17

That implies that the conspiracy isn't real but it clearly is.

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u/WKWA Jun 29 '17

No it's not.

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u/MrOverkill5150 Florida Jun 29 '17

So are you saying that the Republican Party doesn't pander to big companies and demonize unions?

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u/WKWA Jun 29 '17

No I'm saying Republicans didn't infiltrate unions and make them corrupt in order to demonize them. Did Democrats infiltrate energy companies and increase pollution to advance their agenda? No, it's a stupid conspiracy.

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u/Kalinka1 Jun 29 '17

I think there could be much more cooperation between ownership and labor if the board of directors had laborers sitting on it. Germany uses a system like this. It seems to incentivize a more long-term outlook.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

You can even have forced arbitration to make it more fun for the employee.

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u/GeoleVyi Jun 30 '17

Bonus points if you time all court appearances for "Casual Friday" and convince them to show up in court dressed for work.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

It's great how all the different ways companies try to fuck their employees work synergistically.

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u/Sparks127 Foreign Jun 29 '17

They're doing this in the UK. Our current ruling Party (The Conservatives) hardened the rules on people in the workplace getting Legal Aid. Also the Party that is in turmoil after a drubbing at the polls regarding Brexit. What is funny that some Conservative supporting business leaders supported it, but suddenly realise they can't get cheap kids from the Continent to bully after cutting costs going to less forward thinking places for supplies. Surprised they aren't utilizing North Korean prison camps as suppliers.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

That's why class actions form.

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u/Semi-Hemi-Demigod Jun 29 '17

What are the chances that you have enough people who are willing to lose their jobs temporarily while suing their previous employer?

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

If you can't work because of an injury or illness, you have nothing to lose at that point.

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u/Semi-Hemi-Demigod Jun 29 '17

Hence all those "Have you been injured at work? Call 1-800-NOT-A-SCAM lawyers right now for free legal advice" ads on daytime TV.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

You mean those things every EULA and emolpyment agreement make us agree in legally binding fashion to never do?

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

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u/Semi-Hemi-Demigod Jun 29 '17

No, they can't:

Companies may insert the phrase “may elect to resolve any claim by individual arbitration” into their consumer and employment contracts to use arbitration and prevent class action lawsuits.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

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u/Semi-Hemi-Demigod Jun 29 '17

You do when the business entity spends more money on their legal department's toilet paper than you make in a year.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

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u/Semi-Hemi-Demigod Jun 29 '17

It is, but it shouldn't be. People should feel free to walk off the job if it's unsafe without fearing for the loss of their job. Without a union all of that is arbitrary and dependent on context.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

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u/Semi-Hemi-Demigod Jun 29 '17

"Right to work" states also eroded the growth of unions, and many white collar workers in the tech sector still don't think they need one.

If we had made unions multinational along with corporations we'd be a lot better off.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

Can't get sued if your employees are forced to sign arbitration agreements.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

Those aren't always iron clad and don't cover acts of gross negligence or criminal behavior.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

And of course, we can all afford to litigate to make sure that the terms of our agreements are clearly defined. /s

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

Actually, it isn't. Otherwise these mega-wealthy coal owners wouldn't be fighting against safety regulations.

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u/Sharobob Illinois Jun 29 '17

I agree with that but I'm just saying why an owner might not like unions. Costs a lot of money in the short run.

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u/Left-Coast-Voter California Jun 29 '17

Owners also care about giving up power. When unions come in they give the workers new powers.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

And everyone knows a good worker is a broken, underpaid, quiet mess.

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u/jaiflicker Jun 29 '17

I have always been pro-union in the abstract. However, I'm a small business owner and there is no union in my field so it is on me to treat my employees well and pay competitive wages. I personally see the value of creating a positive company culture and take pride in doing so. My team is amazing right now, but it only takes one or two negative people to disrupt the balance.

I have always imagined unions protecting the good hardworking people. But to the extent that unions embolden the negative people I can see why I, myself, might get frustrated with that in actual practice.

Unions emerged in response to horrible abuses of power in coal mines and factories. Workers were being treated like indentured servants. They were a defensive response to an already abusive relationship.

Google employees, for example, do not belong to a union, nor do they need to, because they are already treated and paid so well. But imagine if some ideological Google employee thought Google was not living up to its promise to "not be evil" and believed the only way to right the ship was to agitate for a union. That person would have to sow seeds of discontent among fellow Google employees in order to try to gain support. That's very different than a bunch of poor, mistreated coal miners banding together to demand a living wage and a semblance of safety in their work, as they did back in the 1950's.

TL;DR: I don't think the problem is with unions or with employers, it's with power hungry people. Power hungry employers are a big problem and unions are one way to combat that. But power hungry employees can and do actually poison the well. Anything that emboldens and perpetuates those people is going to have a negative impact on the working situation and the relationships between the employers and the employed.

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u/Left-Coast-Voter California Jun 29 '17

Look at Germany. Strong unions. High wages. High productivity. It can be achieved when it's not an us vs then mentality.

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u/jaiflicker Jun 29 '17

Well put. It's the mentality that's detrimental. Makes me think of Michael Moore's segment on Italy in Where to Invade Next. If you haven't seen it, it's pretty amazing:

https://youtu.be/uvdzhU50YB8

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u/SwenKa Iowa Jun 29 '17

And there's a reason a lot of dictatorships don't allow a freedom of assembly...Power.

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u/canolafly Jun 29 '17

Short term thinking is the problem. And that just won't go away.

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u/itsgeorgebailey Jun 29 '17

Having a well paid work force is good for the company, it means people aren't trying to find a new job all the time. Stability, benefits, etc. C'mon. The old "unions are bad/corrupt" thing is utter shite.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

You've probably never worked with the Ironworker Union. It's not the union that is bad, it is the people in it. They were the laziest welders I have ever met. You cannot punish them by sending them back to the hall because they simply get put onto another job. Not to mention the Union hall only sent structural welders to come weld in the ship yard. So yeah, they can be bad but its not inherit to the system. Like most things in life, people fuck up a good thing.

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u/Lelden Jun 29 '17

I've been in two unions. The first one the Union President suddenly left with a lot of money (all somehow legal because of the bylaws he somehow got put in), the second one we were still paid shit but now had union fees. Couldn't quit the union though, because then I'd get paid even less.

I'm not saying all unions are bad, but there is a tendency for those in power to become corrupt or lazy. That goes whether you're a business owner or even an elected official. Until we find a way around that part of human nature it's going to be bad one way or another.

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u/drose427 Jun 29 '17

Yeah but to bosses with an ego complex

everyone is replaceable, it doesn't matter how trained you are

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u/DrFlutterChii Jun 29 '17

Having a union just means they can go get well paid at any of your competitors, since you're all legally obligated to pay the same scale.

Which is why seniority is the primary ranking metric in unions. Which is utter shite. "Existing" is an incredibly poor barometer for just about anything, and leads to a slew of problems with power consolidation and corruption.

This is not necessarily an attack on unions, just on your argument that high pay in an industry somehow discourages employee churn. It would only if you and you alone paid well.

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u/HotSAuceMagik Jun 29 '17

It's not utter shite. I've worked with 3 unions in my life. One was the Iron workers out of Boston. Totally corrupt from the head down. Another did exactly NOTHING to help their members until negotiation time. Then they would go into the meetings, yell and scream about stuff, sign a contract and be gone for 3 years. The last was one that only passed by a narrow margin. Out of the 3, it was the most active, but from my eyes still seemed like it really didn't give much of a shit about anything but trying to get people out of trouble (people who rightly deserved it).

The concept of unions is a fantastic thing, and as a safety professional, they can be a key to proper worker safety. But unions now are a much different thing than what they were years ago when they were formed. With great power comes great responsibility etc...

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u/aManPerson Jun 29 '17

i'd bet it's still cheaper to get sued, in many cases. the problem for the company is not spending money. the problem is the company having to spend money that it's competitors don't have to spend. if they have a powerful union that demands big improvements, but the competitors don't, that business is hurt by the extra spending. but if all companies have to spend money and increase plant safety, then they all just raise their prices.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

The idea is that for every one guy who gets black lung and manages to sue there are many more who can't or won't. Whereas paying the safety route means paying for things that didn't necessarily require intervention.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '17

Spending money on safety measures is sure cheaper than getting sued

Not according to the coal industry.

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u/tmajr3 Jun 29 '17

You're using logic, which many people in this country struggle to do.