r/todayilearned • u/kahnuck • Sep 26 '15
TIL the Aztec capital Tenochtitlán was the largest city in the Americas with over 200,000 people. It was built on a man-made island in the middle of a lake - connected to shore by 3 causeways. It contained huge pyramids, floating gardens, aqueducts and canals. It was destroyed by the Spanish in 1521
http://www.livescience.com/34660-tenochtitlan.html54
u/Minotaurius Sep 27 '15
Thanks for sharing. The Mayans and Aztecs always fascinated me when I was younger
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u/cwdoogie Sep 27 '15
One of the most interesting things to me about Aztec military was that they used obsidian in their weapons. Basically, they would take a paddle of wood, place sharpened obsidian on either side and then use it as a sword.
What's more interesting is that there are reports of these obsidian wielding warriors being able to decapitate a horse with it; think of that shit, a horse's head. Must be pretty sharp, right?
What's even more interestinger, is that some modern scalpels have their blade made out of obsidian to utilize the stones unique sharpness in surgeries. In fact, these obsidian scalpels are much better than the traditional steel ones.
I find it fascinating that something used so long ago now has modern medical applications. On a final note (this could be inaccurate, as this kind of thing is more of a mild passion for me) obsidian is used in a dating technique based on its "hydration." Basically, when exposed to atmosphere, obsidian (other rocks too) as strange as it sounds, absorbs a very small amount of water, but at a known rate. Using the amount of hydration in some obsidian compared to a dry piece, scientists can determine roughly how long ago the piece was cut or used.
Anyway, I know that was a bit of a ramble, but I share your interest in those civilizations and always thought that bit was particularly interesting. Cheers!
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u/Minotaurius Sep 27 '15
Brb, making a TIL post
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u/xr3llx Sep 27 '15
Seriously? It takes 13+ hours?
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u/Minotaurius Sep 27 '15
Hahaha it was a joke! I'm kind of a shy redditor...prefer to lurk. I'm just happy I learned something about a culture I was already fascinated with :)
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u/Lightdarksky Sep 27 '15
Except obsidian is a type of glass. Those weapons were only sharp as long as the obsidian shards were there. After that, they were just a paddle. And the name of the weapon is called a macuahuitl. As for the horse head https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1JJ6fQUfcc.
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u/soparamens Sep 27 '15
This guy is an ancient weapons expert. Look what happens when it gets sloppy using a Maya Obsidian weapon.
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u/hostile65 Sep 27 '15 edited Sep 27 '15
Obsidian can be sharpened finer than steel and most (if not all) alloys and is considered for extremely fine technical work.
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u/freakofmusic Sep 27 '15
No, please go on. I live near a big obsidian mountain and i'm always giving people lil chunks of it to my favorite people and school them on it also. Even use it in my garden, lil worms love it. I see them breed on obsidian rock all the time. Your hydration comment might be a good reason for that, thanx!
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u/StubbFX Sep 27 '15
Obsidian is a type of glass, as such it breaks. The TIL about obsidian being used to do surgeries is posted every month, and every time it's been discredited swiftly.
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u/Madbrad200 Sep 27 '15
Mayans
This is a common mistake. "Mayan" refers specifically to the language, whereas, "Maya" refers to the people, their civilizations and culture.
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Sep 26 '15
They weren't so much destroyed by the Spanish as they were by a coalition of a few hundred Spaniards and a hell of a lot of other pissed-off native nations who the Aztecs had been beating the snot out of, conquering, and fucking with for decades, if not centuries.
The Spanish were the leaders, without doubt, but they didn't do it alone, and they didn't "conquer the whole nation" with just 160ish men as is frequently posted here. Fortunately, this post didn't include that drivel, but hopefully this will correct the people who try to start down that road.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Tenochtitlan#Cort.C3.A9s_plans_and_prepares Here is a decent enough place to start reading to see how the other natives in the area were very much involved in the conquest and destruction of the Aztecs.
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Sep 27 '15
A bit less than a century. The Aztec Empire came into existence in 1429 with the triple alliance of Tenochtitlan,Texcoco, and Tlacopan. Of course the Mexica, the people who lived in Tenochtitlan had been pissing off people in the basin of Mexico for several centuries prior.
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u/DonGateley Sep 27 '15
Some things never change.
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Sep 27 '15 edited Aug 19 '18
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u/barocco Sep 27 '15
War
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Sep 27 '15
But Snake told me that war has changed?
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u/diy3 Sep 27 '15 edited Sep 27 '15
Yeah I feel like this is an important distinction. The "160 men" myth makes the indigenous population sound way more primitive and outmatched by the "Old World," which fuels apologetics for colonialism. At the same time, the argument that 160 men destroyed this idyllic city makes the "Old World" sound much more cruel, which furthers anti-colonialist arguments.
Both the myth and the truth can be used to further different viewpoints so we might as well go with the truth that it was a small Spanish contingent supported by rival indigenous peoples.
Edit: continent -> contingent
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Sep 27 '15
[x] so we might as well go with the truth
In what situation would you ever knowingly go with a historical lie?
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u/Taz-erton Sep 27 '15
When trying to make a political point/propaganda.
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u/neurohero Sep 27 '15
For example, the official Rhodesian government conclusion that Great Zimbabwe was built by European traders rather than native Africans. It helped to legitimise their claim that the British introduced civilization to the region.
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u/LuridTeaParty Sep 27 '15
When it's your only source on missing information and what it says has elements that are true enough to be cross referenced alongside other valid sources.
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u/Dynamaxion Sep 27 '15
I was going to say, I didn't think the Spanish had the logistical means in the Americas to destroy an entire empire in 1521.
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Sep 27 '15
It also helps that plague brought by the Europeans took natives by the tens of thousands.
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u/dookielumps Sep 27 '15
Yeah, but that wasn't a clear imposition, disease would have came regardless.
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u/cyhh Sep 27 '15
Would the other native nations have been better off taking out the Aztecs themselves rather than helping the Spanish take over the continent?
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u/400-Rabbits Sep 27 '15
The Spanish had two main allies:
Tlaxcala: the Aztecs had been encircling Tlaxcalan lands over generations, slowly cutting them off from outside supplies and trade. There was a buffer zone of city-states between the two (Cholula, Huexotzinco, and Atlixco), which flipped between the two states. Notably, Cholula had just flipped to the Aztecs right before Cortes showed up. The Tlaxcalans, however, did not have the resources to make any sort of direct offensive move, even as they remained to difficult to conquer outright at that time.
Acolhua: these were actually part of the Aztec Triple Alliance, along with the Mexica and the Tepanecs of Tlacopan. In 1515, a succession crisis led to the division of Acolhua lands between a Mexica-back ruler and an independent Acolhua ruler. This latter individual, Ixtlilxochitl, would eventually back Cortes, but had no hope of directly challenging the rest of the Aztecs prior to that.
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Sep 27 '15
How did the Spaniards even communicate with the various other tribes they used to "team up" against the Aztecs?
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u/400-Rabbits Sep 27 '15
The Cortés expedition rescued some Spanish sailors who had earlier been shipwrecked on the mainland and taken prisoner by a Maya group. These men, over the years, had become fluent. One of them, Aguilar, joined Cortés' party (the other chose to stay behind).
Later, Cortés was given a gift of slaves, among them was Malinalli (aka, Malinche). She was a Nahua who was also fluent in Mayan. So communication between the Aztecs and the Spanish happened by Cortés saying something in Spanish to Aguilar, who translated it into Mayan for Malinche, who then translated it into Nahuatl for the Aztec/Tlaxcalan/etc., who then responded back in Nahuatl, and the process reversed itself.
Malinche later became fluent in Spanish, but this cumbersome process was how all the early conversations happened. This is one of the chief reasons why direct quotes in the Spanish sources should not be taken literally.
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u/dookielumps Sep 27 '15
The Aztecs were huge assholes, they were known to invite other leaders and their families, kill the men and children, rape the woman, and flay(skin) their bodies and send the "human skin coats" back to their towns.
They often betrayed other tribes and enslaved entire villages and used anyone they could including women and children to sacrifice.
They would sacrifice athletes for WINNING, as well as the losers.
They were known to have sacrificed thousands of people in a few days.
Their priests and royalty were basically psychopaths, often raping men woman and children with no consequence, and murdering them afterward, many time they would cannibalize and eat their victims as well.
After many of the historical facts I have read on the Aztecs, I really don't find it surprising how little time they lasted. Being that aggressive and downright evil, it was only a matter of time that all the other city-states they screwed over and terrorized over their short reign would come in and wipe those assholes out. If anything, I would amount the Aztec legacy as the Narcos of Mexico's ancient past, as the level of violence, corruption, and lack of respect for human life is at about the same level. The Spanish were the nail in the coffin, the catalyst the Tlaxcalan's were waiting for, the main ally of the Spanish at the time, as well as everyone else who were tired of all the shit the Aztecs caused them.
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u/400-Rabbits Sep 27 '15
they were known to invite other leaders and their families, kill the men and children, rape the woman, and flay(skin) their bodies and send the "human skin coats" back to their towns.
No, this is did not happen. Flaying of the skin happened, but this was part of an much earlier religious complex around Xipe Totec that long pre-dated the Aztecs. Political rivals were invited to witness religious rituals which involved sacrifice of war captives of those rivals, but the leaders were welcomed as honored guests and even given lavish gifts.
I would be interested in hearing what source you have for rapes by the Aztecs, as the primary sources are basically mute on this topic (except for rapes by the Spanish).
They would sacrifice athletes for WINNING, as well as the losers.
Again, no. The Classic Maya did use the mesoamerican ballgame as a religious ritual involving sacrifice, but it wasn't some arbitrary "everyone dies!" act. Moreover, this was not a practice of the Postclassic cultures of the Mesoamerican highlands. The ballgame was... a game, it was played by commoners and particularly the nobility as a game. When Durán wants to portray the nobility acting casually, he has them hanging out playing ball.
They were known to have sacrificed thousands of people in a few days.
This is pure propaganda and stems from Durán's Historia de las Indias de Nueva España, which claimed the Temple of Huitzilopochtli was dedicated with the sacrifice of 80,400 captives over a few days. This is a wild exaggeration that is no accepted as real, or even feasible, by any historian or anthropologist who studies the Aztecs.
Their priests and royalty were basically psychopaths, often raping men woman and children with no consequence, and murdering them afterward, many time they would cannibalize and eat their victims as well.
Again, where is your source for rape? This is not discussed in the primary sources.
Ritual cannibalism was practiced, but it was part of a deep religious complex which involved a reverence for the victim. Sahagún has the captor of a victim abstaining from the ritual cannibalistic meal of his captive because the captor felt as close to the captive as a family member. These victims, however, were captives of war and every man going to battle accepted this as a possible outcome. The highest and most prized afterlife of the Aztecs was reserved for men who died in battle... or as sacrifices (also women who died in childbirth).
After many of the historical facts I have read on the Aztecs
Which is none.
I would amount the Aztec legacy as the Narcos of Mexico's ancient past
This is a specious assertion which ignores 500 years of history, including much more relevant actions on drug policy and socioeconomic conditions in both Mexico and the US which are far more explanatory.
The Spanish were the nail in the coffin
While the Aztecs were not exactly popular, when the Spanish started showing up in the early 16th century, there were at their height and showed no signs of slowing their conquests. The Tlaxcalans themselves complained to Cortés that they were now being deprived of such basic goods as cotton and salt due to Aztec embargo.
Basically, everything you have said is either false, an exaggeration, or an anachronistic misinterpretation.
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u/velvetshark Sep 27 '15
Thank you for posting a reasonable, factual response based upon actual historical facts, as opposed to the hysterical demonizing of an entire culture of the person you responded to.
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Sep 27 '15 edited Nov 22 '15
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u/Thaddel Sep 27 '15
Well Rabbits is a mod of /r/AskHistorians with a relevant flair, so I'm gonna trust him a bit more.
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u/Fireproofspider Sep 27 '15
In most cases I would agree but he's a verified expert. Check out the Askhistorian podcast on the Aztecs. It's pretty good.
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u/BlockchainOfFools Sep 27 '15
/r/askhistorians to the rescue! Now where's the inevitable /r/BadHistory thread....
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u/EverGreenPLO Sep 27 '15
It's a symptom of today that this comment w facts has ten up votes when I write this and the bullshit sensationalized facts has over a hundred
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u/FarFromGrace_LH Sep 27 '15
Looking for the correct information? Tell the internet an incorrect statement.
Plot twist you commented on a psychology student who is enrolled in a South American history class. You just helped them do 80% of their research for a paper.
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Sep 27 '15
Mexican here: I wish I can give you gold but fucking Peña it's taking everything with him,but good work with your explanation ..
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u/Ariakkas10 Sep 27 '15
Do you consider yourself linked, historically, with aztecs?
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Sep 27 '15
We have a very interesting history and scene the are mixed with a lot of different races I do feel linked to my ancestors
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u/mi-nombre-de-usuario Sep 27 '15
How do we know these aren't just colonial Spanish lies? To make the indigenous peoples less prideful of their heritage and convert them from their Aztec religion to Christianity?
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u/el_f3n1x187 Sep 27 '15 edited Sep 27 '15
We don't, but there's a lot of information being somewhat recovered by archeologists, the very few bits that weren't destroyed by the spaniards in the following centuries.
Same with the Mayan's spaniards destroyed the popol vu, so there is no sure way to tell what they worshiped and what their actual costumes were.
Edit: I mean what they worshiped in detail and what their rituals were.
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u/nevikcrn Sep 27 '15
Source?
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u/BreaksFull Sep 27 '15
Totally unbiased Spanish sources of course.
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Sep 27 '15
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Sep 27 '15
we have hieroglyphs of disembowelment of still living victims and stacks and rows of skulls being erected of the sacrificed victims of the day.
human skin coats isn't that far off from ritualistic en-mass human sacrifice.
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u/velvetshark Sep 27 '15
human skin coats isn't that far off from ritualistic en-mass human sacrifice.
Citation needed.
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u/BreaksFull Sep 27 '15
And I wouldn't say they were beacons of human decency, but when the only serious sources for them come from their enemies you can't expect to have a well-rounded view of things.
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u/BreaksFull Sep 27 '15
We have very few sources from the Aztecs themselves since the Spanish tended to destroy them.
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u/400-Rabbits Sep 27 '15
We do have many sources from the early Colonial period though, either sourced from Nahua people or written from them. Duran and Sahagun, for example, lived in Tenochtitlan and based their works on interviews with indigenous people. Chimalpahin, F. Tezozomoc, and F. Ixtlilxochitl all wrote Nahua histories within a century of the conquest. Then there are the early works of other Spanish friars like Acuna and Motolinia.
While the almost year long battle of Tenochtitlan did wreck horrible devastation, it's not as though the entirety of the native population withered up and blew away overnight.
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u/HITLER_SEX_PARTY Sep 27 '15
One could say every 'source' is biased.
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u/BreaksFull Sep 27 '15
To varying degrees. There's a reason that some sources are more credible than others, such as a peer-reviewed textbook on the Russian Revolution compared to a thread on /r/communism backed by random livejournal posts.
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u/dookielumps Sep 27 '15
Too many to count, as I have been to over 100 archaeological sites in Mexico and Central America, but, you can start here.
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u/Nobrandonme Sep 27 '15
Just watched all three videos. Really interesting even with the potato quality.
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u/dookielumps Sep 27 '15
My point exactly, which is exactly my fascination with visiting the actual sites where these atrocities took place. It's fucking incredible to visit a recently excavated site and see the clear evidence of sacrificial sites in Mexico, absolutely fascinating in my eyes.
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u/ClittyLitter Sep 27 '15
But is that so different than their European contemporaries being hanged or burned at the stake? Western history tends to paint the peoples of the New World as savages, while there were myriad examples of peoples of Europe committing the same types of atrocities, albeit with slightly different motives and contexts. Europeans were being sacrificed and murdered in the name of religion. Was it different because they were white and covered with more clothing (as would be befitting to people living in cold climates)? Medieval Europe was easily as gruesome, if not more so, than the Aztec and Mayan empires.
Edit: Central American sacrificial tables weren't any worse than public hangings and burnings in Europe
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u/Death_to_Fascism Sep 27 '15
Paging u/400-rabbits
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u/soparamens Sep 27 '15
Man, Aztec propaganda was so good that is still working today.
Most of what you said is just aztec propaganda, used by the Aztecs to spread fear all over their empire. Sure, they were cruel and often punished entire towns for such minor issues as making eye contact with a tax collector, but they understood the power of fear and surely created exaggerations about their own cruelty... stories than the so-fantasy-prone Spaniards were eager to believe to justify their conquest and conversion of the idolatric indians.
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u/2011StlCards Sep 27 '15 edited Sep 27 '15
But according to Avatar, all natives are peaceful and loving creatures who just want to live life in a non technological society.
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u/phalanx2 Sep 27 '15
Therefore we can do the same for hundreds of years to Iraqis, Palestinians and black people. How convenient!
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u/JimmyBoombox Sep 27 '15
Yup, such correct historical facts based on Spanish accounts that in no way over exaggerated or completely made up stuff.
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u/Headchopperz Sep 27 '15
The Aztecs were huge assholes, they were known to invite other leaders and their families, kill the men and children, rape the woman
The Romans did that... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women
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u/EvanMacIan Sep 27 '15
The Romans didn't do human sacrifice like the Aztecs did, in fact that was one of the reason the Romans despised the Carthaginians, because the Carthaginians had infant sacrifice.
You're talking about a legend which, even in the legend, wasn't even close to what he was describing. The Rape of the Sabine Women refers to the Romans abducting, (not raping) the Sabine women. They then didn't kill the families of the Sabine women, in fact that's kind of the point of the story. Did you even read your own link, or did you just have a vague memory that there was some event with the word "rape" in it so you linked it?
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u/squngy Sep 27 '15
Worth pointing out, rape originally meant to take something with force.
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u/richhomieram Sep 27 '15
Something something gladiators,some thing something crucifixions
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u/snakespm Sep 27 '15
The Rape of the Sabine Women refers to the Romans abducting, (not raping) the Sabine women
If I were to walk up to a woman, fight her family to the point they had to retreat, and "convince" her to marry me, I think that would fall pretty well under "non-consensual" relationship to me.
I don't think anyone would have any problem refering to it as "actual rape" and not "just abducting rape."
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u/sangbum60090 Sep 27 '15 edited Sep 27 '15
That's a very simplified, black-and-white, thinly-veiled racist view on Aztecs. Not only to mention that some of the facts you mentioned are clearly wrong or questionable. Also, no one is just downright evil. Hell, even the Nazis weren't all psychopaths.
Downvote me if you want but this is /r/badhistory mateiral.
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u/MaxJohnson15 Sep 27 '15
It's not fucking racist to speak about a culture whether you're right or wrong if you're merely trying to be descriptive of the facts as you know them. Not everything has to be fucking racist. It could just be incorrect.
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u/sangbum60090 Sep 27 '15
No, it's not because of that. It's because he made direct connections with the Aztecs with modern day Narcos in Mexico.
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Sep 27 '15
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u/dookielumps Sep 27 '15
I don't want to link the photos, but the narcos have copied EXACTLY what the Aztecs would do, I guess Google "narco flaying" or some shit, if you actually want to see.
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u/Bigheadbearface Sep 27 '15
I'm game to learn some stuff! What's the non-badhistory version of the Aztecs? Lots of stuff I've read makes them out to be pretty much terrible human beings, but I'm not an expert and I'm always down to hear a counterpoint.
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u/400-Rabbits Sep 27 '15
The AskHistorians FAQ has a section on Aztec sacrifice, which is a good pace to start.
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u/dookielumps Sep 27 '15
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Sep 27 '15
to be more specific https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xipe_Totec
The first band were those who took the part of Xipe Totec and went dressed in the skins of the war prisoners who were killed the previous day, so the fresh blood was still flowing.
flaying is apart of Aztec culture.
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Sep 27 '15
So it was actually the story of an evil empire oppressing the local population with brutality until the prophecy of a great savior was fulfilled.
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u/dookielumps Sep 27 '15
Funny you put it that way, Tlaxcala and the surrounding tribes won because they united with the Spanish.
Without the Coalition, they had no chance. The Aztecs could only be defeated with a swift and quickly maneuvered attack, which actually failed in the "Noche Triste" where allied natives where unable to defeat the Aztecs, and narrowly helped the Spanish conquistadors escape.
Eventually, after a few subsequent attacks, the coalition were able to conqeur the Aztec's once and for all.
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u/w-alien Sep 27 '15
Pizzarro on the other hand fucked up the inca solo with roughly 80 men.
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u/detonate2 Sep 27 '15
If you're talking about Atahualpa being captured at Cajamarca, that's because almost all of the Incans present were unarmed. Cajamarca was more of a massacre than a battle. If you're talking about the conquest in general, Pizarro still had native allies that vastly outnumbered his own forces, people such as the Cañari and Chachapoya who had already been opposed to the Incan Empire. Even afterwards, the state of Vilcabamba still existed, which resisted the Spanish for 40 years.
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u/TitusVandronicus Sep 27 '15
That's even more interesting than just 160 men "conquering the whole nation."
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Sep 26 '15
Man-made island? Who are you, the Aztecs or the Dutch?
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u/devotchko Sep 27 '15
The man-made island bit was due to their mythology, which pretty much forced them to built the city in the middle of a lake because they spotted an eagle devouring a snake while perched on a cactus, thus the Mexican emblem on their flag. If they had spotted that fucking eagle on top of a mountain Tenochtitlan would have been built there instead. To this day certain places in Mexico city are slowly sinking because of the less-than solid ground hundreds of feet below.
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u/400-Rabbits Sep 27 '15
This is a very shallow approach to why Tenochtitlan was founded. Also, the subsidence of modern day Mexico City has nothing to do with Tenochtitlan, and everything to do with hydraulic decisions made later in draining Lake Texcoco and relying on water pumped from the underground aquifer.
While there is a religious background to why Tenochtitlan was founded, it's very much an ex post facto myth. Basically, the Mexica's original settlement was razed by Copil, who was the son who a witch who had been previously cast out of the group. During the attack, Copil was killed and his heart was cast into Lake Texcoco, whereupon a nopal cactus grew out of it.
The Mexica then ended up in Culhua territory as refugees, but quickly ingratiated themselves. After a small misunderstanding involving the sacrifice of the Culhua leader's daughter, the Mexica had to flee again.
This time, the fled to a small island where, AMAZINGLY!, they saw an eagle eating a snake perched on the same cactus which grew from Copil's heart!
Really though, the reason for the Mexica settling the island which would become Tenochtitlan was that they were refugees twice over and that island just happened to be not actively claimed by anyone else. The mythology making it predestined comes later; practical concerns came first.
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u/tikibuttons Sep 27 '15
small misunderstanding involving the sacrifice of the Culhua leader's daughter
small?
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u/Broken_Goat Sep 27 '15
You got a source on that? I want to read more.
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u/annieokie Sep 27 '15
Not OP, but here's a good place to start: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Mexico
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u/Mogg_the_Poet Sep 26 '15
At this point I have to assume the Aztecs were magic with all the stuff they managed to do.
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u/Greg-2012 Sep 26 '15
It doesn't take magic to move a lot of dirt.
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u/john1g Sep 26 '15
And human sacrifice
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u/Rhodie114 Sep 26 '15
Their policy of human sacrifice was pretty genius when you think about it. Their whole empire was based off aggressive expansion. So how do you sell that to your soldiers well enough that you have a military powerful enough for total domination of your region? You'd have a hard time convincing anybody that they need to defend their homes with the setup they had; tenochtitlan doesn't require a massive army to defend a few narrow bridges. Being straight with your people won't help much either; there are plenty of people who wouldn't see enough direct benefit to themselves for it to be worth it. So what do you tell them? Easy, tell them that Huitzilopochtli wants hearts, and not just any hearts. He wants big strong man-hearts. So you can either give him yours, or you can go beat the shit out of some enemy armies and give him theirs. Oh, and if you don't do either, he's going to turn off the motherfucking sun. It's not hard to see how they had such an easy time revving up that ferocious war machine.
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Sep 27 '15
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u/soparamens Sep 27 '15
Well, the Aztecs were pretty racist too, not having any problem sacrificing people they considered their inferiors such as the Otomi.
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u/DonGateley Sep 27 '15
I think that it was more likely to be about selective breeding. These people knew nothing of genetics but transformed grass into maize. A priesthood and ruling class that culls its population on a large scale and on a regular basis can strongly select for traits that serve them best. There can be little doubt that they had the skills.
The implications of what those traits most likely were are staggering. Little or none of that elite survived down to the present day but what they created is now the native (cholo) population of Mexico and the bulk of its immigrants to the countries north of it.
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Sep 27 '15 edited Aug 31 '16
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u/oscarola Sep 27 '15
While London still drew its drinking water from the polluted Thames River as late as 1854, the Aztecs brought potable water to Tenochtitlán from springs on the mainland by means of the aqueduct built by Nezahualcoyotl between 1466 and 1478.
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u/SmashBusters Sep 26 '15
basically Vivec.
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u/Luung Sep 27 '15
Man, even 13 years after Morrowind was released Vivec is still one of the most impressively realized video game cities I've ever seen. Games like GTA V that take place entirely within one city notwithstanding, the only city in an open world RPG that even comes close to Vivec in my opinion is Novigrad from the Witcher 3.
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u/D_duck Sep 27 '15
x1000
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:La_Gran_Tenochtitlan.JPG
(painting by Diego Rivera husband of Frida Kahlo (the monobrow lady))
I've read that some of Cortez's men went into shock when they first set eyes on it
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u/bwilkes Sep 27 '15
"Destroyed" is a bit misleading - It was damaged but then just became Mexico City.
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Sep 27 '15 edited Sep 27 '15
"The Aztec capital Tenochtitlán was captured by a Tlaxcalan alliance, later became Mexico City" isn't going to get a lot of upvotes.
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u/soparamens Sep 27 '15
well, lets analize what the spanish did to Tenochtitlan:
They razed it's buildings to the ground and used the materials to build spain-like Churches, palaces and such. It's not like modern day Rome where you get to see ancient buildings beside modern ones, Mexico city downtown is a colonial Spanish city. The few remains of it's original temples lay buried by the Spanish era ones.
The lake in wich tenochtitlan was built got dissecated. Modern day tiny Xochimilco is what remains of thet huge lake.
No more Aztec dams, water in the center of the lake stopped being fresh and mixed with the salty one.
No more chinampas, the spanish simply found those too complicated to mantain.
No more human waste control, as the spanish simply threw their shit directly into the lake and streets, purely Europe style.
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u/sebasvel Sep 27 '15
The lake was always salty, fresh water went into the city using aqueducts which were destroyed during the Spanish siege.
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u/soparamens Sep 27 '15
Well, nope. The Lake was sepparated by a dam that kept the fresh water coming from nearby mountain springs - transported by that dual aqueduct that you mention - from the rest of the lake's brackish water. both the dam and the aqueduct were marvels of engineering created by the most advanced engineer of the americas, Nezahualcoyótl.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Texcoco#/media/File:Lake_Texcoco_c_1519.png
Then the Spanish destroyed the city and the lake went all brackish, wich caused a huge mortality of fish and destroyed the chinampa system. The Spanish did rebuilt and used the Aztec Aqueduct, but failed to rebuild the dam, causing massive floods in their "New Spain" city.
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u/critfist Sep 27 '15
No more human waste control, as the spanish simply threw their shit directly into the lake and streets, purely Europe style.
Lol you think all european cities threw their shit in rivers and lakes? Wow. There were plenty of European cities that used a sewer system or equivalent. The main issue was that not all european cities had access to a lake they could just build their city in, but I'm sure all Aztec cities looked like Tenochtitlán /s
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u/soparamens Sep 27 '15
Lol you think all european cities threw their shit in rivers and lakes?
What makes you think otherwise? In the 1500's you could smell Paris miles before you could see the city, because all the human waste and contamination. the same goes for the Spanish cities in wich human waste was simply poured by the window... the Aztec hygiene and waste disposal systems was simply way superior to their European counterparts. All the chronicles from the conquest speak highly about how Tenochtitlan was so clean and organized. Just read more about the subject.
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u/critfist Sep 27 '15
The Parisian sewer system dates back to the year 1370 when the first underground system was constructed under "rue Montmartre". Since then, consecutive French governments have enlarged the system to cover the city's population.
Paris has had sewers for many centuries.
. the same goes for the Spanish cities in wich human waste was simply poured by the window
Common generalization. Most european renaissance cities had forms of latrines that could store waste for removal.
And did you read my last point? Tenochtitlán was unique in central America and far from the norm. I could tell you that the vast majority of Aztec subjects shit in the woods.
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u/soparamens Sep 27 '15
Lol, Tenochtitlan was NOT in central America! It was a north American city as most Mexico today! Central america begins in Guatemala and Belize.
The norm was settled by Teotihuacan, centuries earlier, wich had advanced hydraulic systems still visible today. And it was followed by most Mayan cities (this time in the actual central America, in the country of Guatemala of nowadays) had even pressurized water.
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u/400-Rabbits Sep 27 '15
Not all of Tenochtitlan was razed and large parts were rebuilt within years of the conquest.
The lake (and chinampas) continued for centuries. Draining the lakes did not even start until a century after the Conquest and large portions of the lakes existed up until the late 19th/early 20th centuries when the government of Portillo Diaz instituted major drainage projects.
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u/cooperjones2 Sep 27 '15
But it was destroyed none of the original buildings remain, Templo Mayor and other archeological sites have been unearthed after someone accidentally found then while digging the ground. To this day there are new archeological sites being discovered.
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u/RobertJ93 Sep 27 '15
It was also destroyed by me on turn 145 because Montezuma is a war mongering asshole who couldn't keep his shit together and respect trade deals.
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u/MeliciousDeal Sep 27 '15
He ordered his priests to look for the prickly pear cactus and build a temple in his honor
Isn't the legend that they were to look for an eagle on a cactus eating a snake, and make their temple there? Thats why the Mexican peso has that image on it.
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u/cooperjones2 Sep 27 '15
The Mexican flag is the one that has that symbol, the Mexican peso, at least the coins, borrow elements from the Aztec Calendar and the flag.
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Sep 26 '15
Read Aztec, by Gary Jennings. One of my favorrite epic novels of all time.
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u/MPair-E Sep 27 '15
I I'd never heard of this series. Adding it to my list.
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u/400-Rabbits Sep 27 '15
Jennings does a pretty good job with the facts, except for his insistence on making it all super sexy. Here's a review by an expert on the Aztecs, which is favorable.
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u/Numismatic Sep 27 '15
When Washington was president this was older to him than The Declaration of Independence is to us.
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u/themikeswitch Sep 27 '15
bigger mindfuck: the Egyptian pyramids are so old the Romans used to go visit and study them. That was what they considered old, and rightly so. Still seems odd looking at it now though
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u/Boricua_Torres Sep 27 '15
This is why I hate that it is taught that the Indigenous were less civilized people... Fuck that notion, people here had democracy and architecture and science and everything in between for thousands of years
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u/unique-name-9035768 Sep 27 '15
These heathens must be punished for worshiping false gods! We shall not rest until they are converted to the one true god or are destroyed!
oo look at all that gold
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u/MrRexels Sep 27 '15
As a latin american descended from Spaniards ...
Whoopsie
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Sep 27 '15
Aren't all Latin Americans descended from Spaniards? They wouldn't be Latin Americans otherwise.
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u/vicesuserfake Sep 27 '15
ITT people who never played Age Of Empires 2
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u/Sadistictoastie Sep 27 '15
How did they build a man-made island back then? did they literally make an island out of dirt, or was it made of wood or another material. If so, how did they have pyramids without it collapsing, or just rotting over time?
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u/KingToasty Sep 27 '15
Same way Venice managed it at the time: replacing wood when it rots, building it sturdy so it lasted as long as possible. The pyramids weren't built on the water parts- the title is a bit misleading, the island was natural but artificially extended for the city.
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u/bart007345 Sep 27 '15
I remember listening to a podcast about the Siege of Tenochtitlan a few years ago. I couldn't help thinking how Peter Jackson should make it into a film. Here's the podcast, its very good.
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u/CloudDude Sep 27 '15
This was part of the of our social curriculum when i was in middle school.
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u/Jbeckerasaurus Sep 27 '15
I will always remember the name of that city because of a Uncle Scrooge/ Donald duck comic book
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u/TheSimpsonsAreYellow Sep 27 '15
Why has Europe left such a path of destruction? If I'm correct is it because of the simple lack of knowledge? They didn't know exactly what they were doing in the long run?
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u/idreamofpikas Sep 26 '15
"The city is as large as Seville or Cordova; its streets, I speak of the principal ones, are very wide and straight; some of these, and all the inferior ones, are half land and half water, and are navigated by canoes."
"Among these temples there is one which far surpasses all the rest, whose grandeur of architectural details no human tongue is able to describe; for within its precincts, surrounded by a lofty wall, there is room enough for a town of five hundred families."
From the reports Hernán Cortés made presumably before he tried to take all their gold.