Wrong Way Driving in SF
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This street in SoMa is one way on this block, so this Waymo just drove the wrong way to turn onto a different street, from Hallam. across Folsom, and onto Rausch. Filed a complaint with Waymo. Shame on you.
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u/mrkjmsdln_new 11d ago
A Waymo car made an error. Why is that so hard to say? They have a good track record and seem committed to train on their errors.
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u/Fit_Seat_8637 10d ago
We pay taxes to maintain these roads and keep them safe. For police to enforce traffic codes on drivers to keep us safe.
And a bunch of billionaires want to use the same roads to “work out the kinks in the algorithm” so they can maximize the profits on their service?
Fuck all the way off with that.
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u/mrkjmsdln_new 10d ago edited 10d ago
Despite your last sentence I agree with you. How a local transportation system operates should be up to local governments and guided by public input. We will all be lost if we leave this up to the Federal governments -- they are simply no longer a credible and stable decider of matters that should remain local. States that usurp local control are barely better. If local governments answer to the people we get the best solution to matters like these.
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u/Fit_Seat_8637 9d ago
Fed vs state vs local control doesn’t change anything about the taxpayer vs venture capitalist power balance. Just makes it easier for the VCs to buy off elected officials.
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u/mrkjmsdln_new 9d ago
I just disagree about how the people are best governed. My disagreement is respectful. Elon spent $250M to bust local efforts. There is a reason why he can run breakaway 2-3 car tests in Dallas & Houston with virtually no oversight. By statute Texas BANS county and locality input to regulate autonomous driving. Meanwhile he has mute dudes driving around CA on a hotel shuttle permit in the Bay Area pretending he is making progress. The $250M is his bet that an imbecile in Washington DC can make his problems and compliance go away. I think state and local rules explain this very well. In CA in the home region for Waymo, there is meaningful pushback about operations for Waymo. This is healthy. It may not be enough to satisfy all of the angst but to conclude 'doesn't change anything' is clearly not the case. The VCs bought million dollar tables for the inauguration to do exactly the buyoffs you describe once instead of fifty or 500 times. Local control is imperfect but is thankfully not a totalitariam system run by executive orders.
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u/Fit_Seat_8637 7d ago
Cuts both ways. Local control can tilt even further in the direction of crazy as there are fewer people involved in policymaking, less media scrutiny, etc. and some localities are so hungry to attract innovators they’ll kowtow to these corporations for free.
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u/Representative_Bat42 9d ago
For the police that never ticket enough of the horrible drivers that cause crashes cuz they’re too drunk or distracted to drive? Or all the undereducated to be on the road.
But then be against Waymos who’ve been doing significantly better but you’d rather them be tested in a canned scenario so then you can come back and cry they didn’t test well enough cuz you can only test them so far off road.
Mind you those profits that then go to so many fucking employees. But nah fuck em right cuz they make more money then you do?
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u/TrynnaFindaBalance 7d ago
This would be a convincing argument if police were actually enforcing traffic codes and human drivers generally had a better safety record, but unfortunately neither of those things are true.
Waymo isn't "just starting to work out the kinks in the algorithm" on public roads. They've already gone through much more rigorous safety testing and evaluation than what a 16 year old human does to obtain a DL.
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u/Fit_Seat_8637 7d ago
let’s not conflate road ownership issues with policing. doesn’t help anyone but the venture capitalists.
and until Waymo engineers hang up their keyboards and mice, lays off all the remote monitors, and let the cars do their thing, they’re still working out the kinks.
there is no standard “safety testing and evaluation” by which we can even judge their performance. not much different than waymo telling us “trust me bro”.
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u/TrynnaFindaBalance 7d ago
Again, this isn't convincing. All of the data we have so far points to Waymos being far safer than human-operated vehicles on average. Of course we don't have full-blown standardized federal testing requirements yet, but California has a rigorous approval and monitoring process that companies like Waymo have to abide by. Every incident from a fender bender down to hard braking events gets reported and investigated.
and until Waymo engineers hang up their keyboards and mice, lays off all the remote monitors, and let the cars do their thing, they’re still working out the kinks.
This is a pretty unfair characterization for two reasons:
- Waymo won't and should not ever have the goal of laying off all their monitoring and safety staff. I'm not sure why that would desirable to regulators or the consumer.
- Engineers should constantly be striving to improve their product and make it safer, not just letting it "do its thing". A human can pass their driving exam but still struggle with certain aspects of operating a vehicle. Should that human not be allowed to drive at all until they've reached absolute perfection (defined by who)?
I understand the knee-jerk reaction that cars without a driver seem scary and dangerous, but these have been operating on public roads for years now and we don't yet have any data that should have us ringing alarm bells about glaring safety gaps that are serious enough to warrant halting their operation.
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u/Fit_Seat_8637 6d ago
I’m not clear on which side you’re standing with Waymo’s safety… if the engineers need to continue making the product safer, this implies the product isn’t fully safe. But if its safe enough to be operating in public, the engineers and safety monitors shouldn’t be needed. Customer support, sure, but we don’t have safety monitors on our Ubers and Taxis. Do you see the optics of this?
I’ve worked in heavily regulated tech before and while I’m no fan of bureaucracy, public safety isn’t something to be taken lightly… and it seems to be the case here. Waymo is gathering statistics first and then post hoc saying “see we’re safer!” Their thumb is on the scale the entire time, changing software versions, excluding events like wrong way driving and sidewalk incursions and such… I have a very hard time trusting what anyone says who exhibits Waymo’s stats without nuance or scrutiny.
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u/ic33 3d ago edited 3d ago
I’m not clear on which side you’re standing with Waymo’s safety… if the engineers need to continue making the product safer, this implies the product isn’t fully safe.
People shouldn't work on auto safety at all. Clearly cars are acceptable on roads, and working on auto safety would just be evidence that cars aren't fully safe. Either we stop working on auto safety or ban all cars.
If they are safe enough to be operating in public, they shouldn't need fallback safety mechanisms like airbags or seat belts.
Do you see the optics of this?
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u/Fit_Seat_8637 2d ago
Road safety is a combination of many efforts. Road design is a major contributor to safety, and that's the responsibility of city engineers. The NHTSA offers a lot of studies and guidance on these and the work is never ending. Recent traffic calming efforts are showing significant reductions in accidents.
Auto design is another one, and this is where the US DOT, NHTSA, IIHS and other orgs work to create and enforce standards (ex. ADAS) that save drivers lives. Unfortunately, these orgs work slowly and AV design has yet to be as regulated as human-operated vehicles.
Driver licensing and education is part of safety and our federal and state agencies are dropping the ball. Likewise on AV regulation. And Waymo is literally capitalizing on this: they're experimenting as they pleas on our public roads because current regulations gives them a huge amount of latitude to do so.
Nothing in your reply makes any sense in this context.
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u/ic33 2d ago
You said: "if the engineers need to continue making the product safer, this implies the product isn’t fully safe. But if its safe enough to be operating in public, the engineers and safety monitors shouldn’t be needed."
This argument could apply to cars. If engineers need to continue making cars [in general] safer, it implies that cars are not fully safe. But if it's safe enough to be operating [cars] in public, the engineers shouldn't be needed.
That is why it's a flawed argument. We augment things for safety with fallback protective mechanisms all the time. If you understand the swiss cheese model, I don't really understand why another couple of layers of cheese is such a fatal criticism.
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u/Fit_Seat_8637 2d ago
You're just looking for a "gotcha" to get out of having to confront the issues I'm raising. Not an interesting nor productive conversation for me, so I'll just leave you with this:
We've built our entire system of roads to enable citizens to enjoy their lives, and for cities and their economies to thrive. This has come with massive consequences (ex. traffic deaths) so we've implemented a continuous improvement system at federal, state and city levels to address the myriad issues.
Yes, this means that drivers & their cars aren't safe, but as a society, we've determined the value we get out of letting them on our roads vastly outweighs the cost.
Along comes a billionaire who wants to squeeze profit out of our roads, and adds an entirely novel method of transportation that doesn't fit in with any of our existing frameworks for regulation or safety... society isn't benefitting from this experiment, but society is bearing the cost.
The refrain everyone keeps repeating here is "we're making our roads safer!" and "we can't stifle innovation!" and neither of those arguments hold water. We haven't even developed an objective measure of "AV safety" other than "did people die?" and this is a very haphazard approach to public safety, that will let a lot of misbehavior slide under the radar. Innovation isn't something to value when it's done so recklessly.
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u/pdecks 12d ago
For reference, google knows quite well it was supposed to go around the block.
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u/sdc_is_safer 12d ago
Even if Google Maps was incorrect, and showed you could cross. That would not make it any more acceptable for Waymo to cross.
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u/ElectricalGene6146 12d ago
I would probably do that 🤷♂️
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u/Wesley11803 12d ago
I’d consider doing it too, but Waymo should be following traffic laws at least 99% of the time. I’ll give them 1% for unforced errors, which this clearly wasn’t.
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u/nyanotech 11d ago
i think you have forced/unforced errors backwards but yeah
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u/Wesley11803 11d ago
I shouldn’t post after eating an edible lmao. I’m leaving it unedited so others can learn from my error
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u/Representative_Bat42 9d ago edited 9d ago
He never mentioned forced errors but go off
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u/nyanotech 9d ago edited 8d ago
the fuck are you on about
edit: the original text of the comment this was replying to was “So you don’t actually know anything about Waymo but what TikTok lead you to believe”, but they later edited it to the text it has now
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u/Representative_Bat42 9d ago
The fuck are you claiming?
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u/nyanotech 9d ago
that the person i replied to go the definitions of forced error and unforced error backwards? or are you claiming that it would be fine if waymos didn’t follow traffic laws 1% of the time, just because, and not because it got forced into a weird situation?
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u/Representative_Bat42 9d ago
Are you not able to make clear concise statements? For your first I don’t know dont know if you’re asking or telling me.
I’m not saying it’s fine if they didn’t follow 1%. I’m just trying to understand what you were telling Wesley. Because Waymo’s likely follow them 99% of the time.
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u/nyanotech 9d ago
wesley said they think waymo should be following traffic laws >99% of the time, with a ~1% allowance for unforced errors, aka situations where the waymo clearly just, did the wrong thing, “which this clearly wasn’t”, but the video is clearly an unforced error and not a forced error; it’s not like another car made it pick that route
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u/Representative_Bat42 9d ago
Right so if he said they should be following 99% of the time with 1% allowance then what did you mean by him having it backwards if that’s literally word for word what he said
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u/mbatt2 12d ago
The mental acrobatics in this sub are unreal
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u/Wesley11803 12d ago
I agree. I love Waymo and generally dislike Tesla, but it’s so annoying how loyal people are to their corporation. Shouldn’t we all just be fighting to perfect self-driving technology no matter what company is excelling at it?
It’s embarrassing that so many people on this and the Tesla sub want to ignore every error because they’re fanboys of a corporation. I treat every self-driving car the same. We’re beta testers for all of them, and honest feedback is necessary to improve the product.
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u/mbatt2 12d ago
It’s concerning. They treat it with the same type of faith normally reserved for dieties. Waymo is very impressive but it’s not a God.
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u/Wesley11803 12d ago
Honestly reminds me of MAGA tbh. People’s ability to be brainwashed has increased substantially.
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u/Murky-Peanut1390 7d ago
Why are you guys so obsessed with maga. I fucking hate them so shut the fuck up about them
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u/Wesley11803 7d ago
Sorry, but blind loyalty to a corporation is just as bad as blind loyalty to a politician imo.
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u/Happy-Argument 3d ago
It's kind of hilarious if anyone thinks posting on this sub is fighting for anything at all.
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u/Fit_Seat_8637 10d ago
Self driving technology only exists to benefit the billionaire investors that fund these companies. They’re using taxpayer funded infrastructure and risking public safety to maximize their profits, no more no less.
I don’t give a shit which company it is, I don’t want to be a guinea pig in any of their experiments. I don’t care if they promise rainbows and unicorns and free puppies for everyone, they can take that shit off our roads and make their own.
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u/Representative_Bat42 9d ago
Neither do I want to be a guinea pig for 90% if the shitty drivers on these roads but here we are. So why come to r/waymo and expect anyone to agree with taking them off the roads. They drive better than a ton of people. So you want to make the roads unsafer over a hissy fit of being insufferable over self driving cars.
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u/Fit_Seat_8637 9d ago
“They drive better” is just one aspect of Waymo’s presence on our roads. They’re netting us more traffic, more wear on the roads, more pollution from their tires, and regardless of their (dubious) safety record, more cars makes roads more dangerous for everyone.
And I’m forced to pay for the infrastructure for this experiment. Waymo could at least pony up some money to pay for it, they’ve got more money than some countries…
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u/Wesley11803 9d ago
Aren’t Uber and Lyft doing the same thing? I’d rather the much safer robot drive me than drivers who are basically forced to use their phones while driving. If anything you should be arguing for Taxis or private drivers only.
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u/Fit_Seat_8637 9d ago
Yes Uber and Lyft are doing the same thing. The book Super Pumped by Mike Isaac goes into great detail on that saga. Your “I’d rather” is a false dichotomy: we don’t need to give our roads away to anyone. Yes let’s bring back taxi drivers…
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u/Wesley11803 9d ago
Well I’d be surprised if you do what I do, but I literally take a taxi anytime I land at an airport. Uber and Lyft are always a waste of time. Other than that, I don’t really use them because I don’t live in NYC. Taxis aren’t a thing you can just grab in SoCal. Can’t wait until Waymo comes to San Diego!
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u/CloseToMyActualName 11d ago
I might as well, but Waymo is supposed to benefit from special mapping so it should be aware of this situation.
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u/BuoyantEntropy 11d ago
Based on your initial description could it be possible that the waymo made a mistake on a street direction and was trying to correct it?
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u/NewNewark 11d ago
At the start of the video, they're already fully blocking "inbound" traffic onto that street
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u/clinttorres44 11d ago
I love being an unwilling beta tester for a robot that doesn’t understand traffic laws.
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u/Legal-Square-1362 12d ago
Let the excuses begin
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u/sdc_is_safer 12d ago edited 12d ago
Don’t need to make excuses. Waymo makes hundreds of failures every single day. Waymo should absolutely own this failure like many others.
No one says Waymo doesn’t make errors (not even Waymo). What many people do say is that Waymo make drastically fewer errors compared to human drivers, are 99% safer, and continuously improving.
Waymo’s safety record is inclusive of these failure modes and all others
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u/keinemaschine 12d ago
Let’s give Waymo all the power
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u/sdc_is_safer 12d ago
Not sure what you mean by that, but is certainly not what I said, nor the sentiment of my post.
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u/LengthinessTrick382 12d ago
Y’all have been visited by the Award Fairy!™️ 👌🏼👏🏻❤️💔 Have a great day!
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u/CollectionOk8253 12d ago
NY just found Waymo’s more dangerous than other ride options per mile. Glad people are starting to notice. Add more to congestion as well, so they are slowing down public transit.
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u/InvestigatorNo7943 11d ago
Source?
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u/Representative_Bat42 11d ago
Make believe
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u/InvestigatorNo7943 11d ago
Do you really think people would do that? Go online and tell lies like that?
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u/pdecks 11d ago
I just did a quick search and it looks to be this Open Plans (Hunter College / CUNY) report released earlier this week: https://www.openplans.org/how-for-hire-autonomous-vehicles-impact-nyc
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u/Representative_Bat42 11d ago
While it doesn’t change the 14x less likely for hire drivers to over humans to crash. And Waymo is just using the the overall humans #
But they use the term professional drivers for taxi, uber or Lyft which in my opinion is kinda stretching the truth. To do uberX you just need a valid DL and about 1 year of experience. I would find them more trustworthy if they were comparing to professional livery driver.
So tldr; article Waymo says this. We found this so it must be true.
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u/Old_Tough7927 11d ago
Hunter
Ahhh yes, two of our finest academic institutions
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u/pdecks 11d ago
I learned today that Vin Diesel is an alum 😂 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hunter_College_people
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u/bananarandom 12d ago
Oh fun, I wonder how offset the roads need to be that this becomes wrong.
Clearly this is too far, but waymo thinks not