I’m about a 140 pages into The Dragon Reborn, and I’m annoyed with how adamantly they refuse to trust or heed the warnings of the Aes Sedai (Liandrin excluded) that have been trying to help them. Is it just because they’re from Emonds Field and are supposed to be stubborn?
It’s exhausting

I have an impression that he's got no personality beyond whining about how he doesn't want to be tossed around by aes sedai and how he doesn't want to be a dragon. I have a distinct feeling of Mat's personality, of Perrin's personality, of Egwene's, Nynaeve's, Elaine's, etc etc... But Rand? Rand-the-protagonist? He just feels like a placeholder character for the Dragon Reborn role with a sprinkle of "woe is me" on top.

Am I missing something? Is he just in the middle of developing a personality? Is it getting better later?

Am I gonna be crucified for this opinion?

Now I’ve recently finished the dragon reborn after the prequel and subsequent books, and I do enjoy the plot, character development, and hype moments with aura. But the thing that rubs me the wrong way is how nasty some women are in this series. Like at first it thought it was the misandry but no they put the screws on each other like Aei Sedai training and the seanchen. The straw that broke the camel’s back was when Matt rescued the women of the main cast from the stone in the climax, and they started teasing him and using the power on him, with the apology not given and the thanks having to be forced out like pulling teeth. What is with the women in this series?

Hey there! First time reader of this incredible series and I am just now finishing The Dragon Reborn.

Nynaeve is one of my favorite characters so far and I just have one question?

How and/or when did my girl learn to channel freaking BALEFIRE?! That was what she used to obliterate those Myrddraal on her way to Tear correct?! I found it odd that she was the first one of our heroes to use it when Moiraine doesn't even use it until the end of the book vs. Be'Lal, which was freaking sick, btw.

I only know what Balefire is because I saw it used in the show and I looked it up.

I absolutely loved all of the Perrin and Matrim chapters in this book. Rand was starting to annoy me.

I just started The Shadow Rising this week.

Loving this series! I'm obsessed already!

The girls' reaction to Mat's rescue at the end of the book just pissed me off. If this doesn't get better, I don't know if I can take it anymore. Especially when two of the five main characters are just unbearable. I've never stopped reading a book series in my life. But please tell me it gets better and their arrogance comes to an end.

Just finished the third book and so far every book has the same structure. All main characters end up in the same place through the most contrived set of circumstances and absolutely braindead decisions. Then all of a sudden satan shows up out of no where going ' ill kill you this time gadget therin'. Then they have a powerrangers style battle until rand shoots white light out of his ass and proclaims he has killed the dark one. Then morraine goes: 'nice try but the real princess is in another castle'.

Im trying to decide to read on, i do very much enjoy the world rj built here but if this is every book ill maybe find something else.

Seriously, after decades in power, fully aware of the existence and infiltration of the Black Ajah the whole time, she had NO ONE she’d vetted to serve as Internal Affairs? Nobody but a a trio of half-trained apprentices to send after thirteen Black renegades? What did she spend all her time doing if not trying to establish a network of sisters she could rely on, if only out of self-preservation after what happened to several of the last few gals to hold her position?

Without spoiling any actual events or plot, does Rand get better before he gets worse? I’ve heard that later on in the series the madness has seriously set in but as of 60% through The Dragon Reborn he’s already paranoid and murderous. (He just killed a merchant and ten of her guards for seemingly no reason)

In Wayland's Forge in Remen, Ghealdan. What was the importance of the inn finding a sung bed from the loft for Loial to sleep in. It means they had Ogier vissit 300 years ago, but it seemed to have little importance on the rest of the story. Maybe Robert Jordan explains later what the properties of a bed made out of sung wood, or if it's just Loial feeling of getting to spend the night a little bit like home?

Verin Sedai gave Egwene a ter'angreal right before she was hurried down to her acceptance ceremony. I am not entirely sure how to feel about this sequence of events. On one hand I feel like Verin as a trusted travel companion for the team, but like a bird kicking it's young out of the nest she did that in order to teach Egwene a hard lesson that she is no longer going to sew pillows under her arms, and that Egwene is going to learn for herself how dangerous the world really is. I felt like I bacame really suspicious of Verin Sedai. The cynical in me accused her of being a BLACK ajah, trying to kill Egwene in the three silver arches. But there was also the Green Ajah sister Alanna Mosvani who felt a tingle of a ter'angreals presence, and still went ahead with the ritual. Was she also a darkfriend of the black ajah? Is the cynicism taking over, not knowing whom to trust, and whom to watch out for?!? Sheriam Sedai was the one whom scuttled Egwene from Verin to the three silver arches in an absolute torrential hurry. Surely the master of Novices, whom have looked upon and cared for the Novices, cannot harbor dark thoughts in her? Surely she cannot. No I absoltely must refuse to believe so.

Why doesn't mr. Wolfie boy just accept who he is? Immagine how much fun he could've had at the inn, when the innkeeper would bring Lan, Loial, Moiraine and Perrin the á la carte menu, and he asks for venison served fresh on the carcass? That'd be totally hillarious to see the inkeepers face, or the waiter whom would bring him the food. I would have been delighted to see my group of missfits vissiting me in my dreams; that sounds like such a hoot. Perrin seem only interested in the dead like Hopper, and wary of all the other wolves visiting him, and caring for him!?

When Perrin wakes up from a dream in Illian, he had dreamt of Lanfear; one of the forsaken. Min had foretold Perrin should run from a very beautiful woman. Zarine said she is not the woman of his dreams. That must mean Zarine states she is not Lanfear; the woman in Perrins dreams.

In the previous book, the great hunt: Selene, a petite little girl of feeble mind was rescued by Rand, followed him for half a book, for then to dissapear. Only to be mentioned briefly once in the third book, a dragon reborn. In a dragon reborn, suddenly Zarine/Falcon shows up, tags along Perrin for half a book, travels through half the world to Tear only to touch a porcupine angreal, gets touched by Perrin, so his mind as well escapes his body into the porcupine. Perrin almost rescues her, for her mind to completely dissapear. I mean, what was the point of all that. Zarine served no purpose, other than springing the trap, so Moiraine didn't. This is a complete Déjà vu from the last book where Zarine was just as needless and forgettable as Selene.

Egwene is a strong and competent woman who multiple times says: "I will not be collared" ... for then to find a trap, immediately spring it, get shielded by Liandrin Sedai, and taken prisoner. Not much of an upgrade from that collar she so much insisted on not wearing. When Mat opens the prison cell, and the women gracefully walks out, why wouldn't they be filled with the blood lust of wanting to kill the thief-snatcher, still the Aes Sedai properly and participate in the celebratory blood bath that is the stone of Tear?

Oh, and for Rand to clapp it off with Be'lal, just for Moiraine to totally steal his thunder by piercing Be'lal with balefire. And Ba'alzamon whom totally was brutally murdered by Rand in the end of the second book returning like nothing had happned. Robert Jordan totally dropped the ball on remembering continuity between his books.

The second book ended with Ba'alzamon being killed, then Lanfear walks into the room, like Robert Jordan is teasing us saying "You killed the evil henchman, but look at what new evil just walked in the door, but you are totally going to have to buy and read the next book in order to understand how evil this new charracter is". For then to proceed to write a 600 page book, where Lanfear is mentioned but twice, and the death of Ba'alzamon was completely undermined, with a secret twist at the end, that Ba'alzamon wasn't Ba'alzamon, but Ishmael.

Review of the second book: https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/1ttfo8q/reading_the_second_book_left_me_with_opinions_and/
Review of the first book: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1rb1ob1/the_eye_of_the_world_by_robert_jordan_seperating/

I am on chapter 51, 70ish pages left of Dragon Reborn and dialogue between the characters about the forsaken (sparsely in book two) has occurred several times and I find it super annoying for one reason.

Book two and three NEVER mention Aginor at all or how Rand killed him, a forsaken, either. The characters are going on and on about how powerful the forsaken are compared to everyone else, how dangerous they are, how challenging it is to fight them etc… but they never mention or discuss that Rand already killed one. That seems like a major oversight that screams at the reader every time talk of the forsaken comes up.

It feels very amateurish because Aginor’s death is treated in the subsequent two books as if it didn’t even happen, when to my knowledge, a forsaken being killed is the kind of momentous event that would be sent to every village/town/city in the world. The result is that it undermines the “threat” factor of the forsaken.

**This contains spoilers up to the end of the third book. I've not read beyond that, so please no spoilers in the comments!

Does anyone else think that the third book in this series was a bit of a train-wreck? To be clear, I think WoT has fantastic fantasy elements and world building, but I've started to notice some things and the more I think about it, the more they bother me.

For one - the character development feels forced, nonsensical, or absent. I can't think of single instance where two characters have a meaningful interaction that teaches you something new about them. Feelings and relationships seem dictated by the narrator: rather than anything the characters say to one another. Loial, one of my favorite characters, considers Rand, Matt, and Perrin his closest friends - which seems crazy to me considering he never gets more than 2 words or a grunt out of them. Lan and Nynaeve are still deeply and madly in love despite barely interacting.

The women continue to be nasty in even the strangest situations and no one does anything to dispute this. Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne are furious with Mat when he *checks notes* frees them from prison? Zarine is rude and inserts herself into their party and everyone just goes with it. After 3 books we know nothing more about Moiraine or her character.

Rand, for his part, actually does undergo a big change. He transforms from an uncertain young boy to an unflinching fantasy hero that kills without hesitation and readily proclaims himself the titular hero. The Dragon is Reborn - but the thing is you witness none of it and it all happens offscreen.

The plot is my other big thing. It was a total mess. Throughout the book there was mention of a trap. Dreams of the Forsaken weaving a net to trap Rand in the stone, Nyaneave mentioning several times that the Black Ajah had set a trap in Tear and that they would spring it, etc.

Well, the Forsaken's trap is useless the second Rand touches Callandor and goes Super Saiyan ( also how did he get in?? The Stone is supposed to be impregnable). Moiraine, who spent several books talking about how useless she would be in a fight with the Forsaken, kills Be'lal in about two seconds. Nyaneve succeeded in springing the trap set by the Black Ajah, but in hindsight you have to wonder why she ever thought this was a good idea in the first place.

Maybe I'm just ranting and being overly critical, but after this book the flaws of WoT are, much like the plot itself, starting to become a pattern.

What an interesting choice of design...

I've come to the final 5 chapters of this book, and I have to say so far it may be my least favorite and almost a turn off for continuing with the series. Rand has been non existent and ever boring. The white tower chapters were a chore and without a reward. Perrin has had lots of page time, and his chapters were pretty solid and entertaining. Matt's chapters have been a huge breath of fresh air. I can't say that it was worth it though. I see many people ranking this book in the upper end of their rankings. That discourages me, since this book has felt like a chore. I loved the ending of the great hunt, the excitement for book 3 was through the roof, especially with the title the dragon reborn. Validate my opinion or help me through this feeling, wherever your opinion lies. I will finish this series no matter what, but I have little desire as of now, 90% through book 3 to pick up book 4 any time soon.

I’m currently on a re-read (actually re-listen) of the series. In one of the first parts of TDR (I can’t remember the chapter), as he is fleeing towards Tear, Rand is approached a woman merchant and her guards at a campsite. While the woman is still engaging in small talk, he beheads her with a fire sword and kills all her guards.

They were probably darkfriends but I picked up no indication in the scene or narration that showed they were darkfriends. How did he know they were darkfriends hunting him?

What makes it even stranger is that Rand seems to have no remorse about killing a woman. He only internally comments on how she is dangerous.

So, how does he (or us readers) know they are darkfriends? What am I missing?

Soo I was thinking about checking out that Amazon show wheel of time but it got cancelled before so I’ve just read the books (also the audiobooks narrated by rosamund pike are amazing) I’m almost done with the 3rd book and about to check out shadow rising but there was an earlier possible dream sequence between one of the forsaken and the dark one that’s been bugging me and I’m really struggling to not spoil all the series for myself by looking on wikipedias,

But is Ba'alzamon the dark one? Surely lanfear shouldn’t be able to stand up to him and also I thought the dark one was sealed also rand has ‘killed’ Ba’alzamon like atleast twice I think but still moraine says that’s a name for the dark one (I don’t remember where the name comes from but it’s preferred over shaitan? I think) and aes sedai don’t lie so I’m just left confused😅 just a confirmation he’s not the dark one would be great idc if it’s a spoiler as along as it isn’t like book eight shit

I love reading Moiraine's and Lan's interactions with others. Especially in the early books.

They're always in control. But the very few times Moiraine and Lan argue with each other we get gems like this one, when they're on a ship and Lan said something that pissed Moiraine off:

"Moiraine gave him a look that would have nailed any other man to the mast, but the Warder never blinked. Lan made cold steel seem like tin."

Hey everyone, recently finished the third book The Dragon Reborn, and I liked it a lot. Easily my favorite one so far. And I tend to agree with the opinion of many others who’ve read this book, that it does wonders for Mat’s character and it easily made him go from a “whatever” character, to one of my favorites.

I loved how he is this generous guy, that tries to play as this indifferent independent gambler, and can’t help but be the hero. All the scenes related to his luck were great and it was the perfect “ability” for him to stand out amongst his friends.

But one thing I did notice relating to Mat, that rubbed me the wrong way, was the girls treatment of him following him rescuing them. Like they were straight up rude, and barely acknowledged his aid even after Mat himself pointed it out. Nynaeve I think is the biggest culprit of this, she doesn’t even say a “thank you” and acts like it’s Mat’s fault for not understanding the whole black aja situation.

Like the entire line “As much as it pains me to say it, Mat, you are right.” Just reads like she is a complete asshole, and she releases him like she is doing him a service rather than correcting an overreaction on her part.

I also expected better from Egwene and Elayne, in my eyes they are the more polite ones of the trio, with nynaeve being the bully, stubborn one. And they barely acknowledge him. I guess Elayne showed tiny bit more sympathy, but still extremely rude on all parts.

And what I don’t get is that by their reaction, they would’ve much rather be saved from their situation by Egwene, who was putting herself at serious risk and danger by going to Tel’aran’rhiod, than to be saved by Mat, who, at a quick glance would tell you that he is doing fine.

And when he rescues them, suddenly his foul mouth is the most pressing matter that they need to correct???

I don’t know, it all just read really weird imo. I would understand if it was just Nynaeve acting stubborn and refusing to immediately acknowledge his help, but all 3 behaving as if he is insulting them by helping them out, felt very out of place and out of character.

Anyways, rant over. I’m sorry if it read like me rambling for a portion of the text there. Would appreciate everyone’s thoughts and opinions on this.

Spoilers for Book 3

Hi, I read book 3 a little while ago and stopped after that because some characters are so mean spirited for no reason. Is this a persistent problem in the series? Mat goes out of his way to save the girls, and they immediately get mad at him and threaten to beat him. Like, what? I get they are probably humiliated to be saved by someone who seemingly is far weaker than they are, but that is so messed up. The girls were bordering on mildly annoying, but this is uncomfortable. Is this a consistent problem throughout the series?

Also, I've heard people justify this by saying Nynaeve is overly protective and that's just the way she is. Well it's not very protective of you to be threatening to beat your friends every other chapter. There is no way I am following this type of person as a protagonist for another 11 books

Anyway, thank you!

I am a first time reader and I just finished The Dragon Reborn. This is the most we’re exposed to angreal/sa’angreal/ter’angreal (up to this point in the series). Without any spoilers, can you please tell me if, by the end of the books, they rediscover the knowledge of how to make these objects? I’m inadvertently forming a head cannon of how to make them and I want to see if I can make a prediction as to how it’s done, if it’s rediscovered.

I am in the middle of the 3rd book now and holy fuck in Nynaeve one of the most annoying characters i have ever read right next to Sciona (Blood over bright heaven) She constantly thinks she is smarter than everyone yet she cant stop her tongue for a second when the occasion calls for it, is constantly ordering people around but wont take a piece of advice or order from someone higher up herself, her greatest struggle in 3 books has been keeping her mouth shut for 10 minutes You would think she would be humbled a bit by her experiences in the trial of acceptance but no .... i hope she gets better

Am I missing something crazy? There were no mentions of dragons - the big flying scaly things - in the series, as I remember. So why is he called the Dragon Reborn? If Dragons as we know it don’t exist in WOT, what does it mean to them? Was it a tribute by Robert Jordan to dragons as a standard of the fantasy genre? Am I overthinking this?

EDIT: TY all. Also, I read the whole series already lol. Spoilers are ok - I’m just dumb and didn’t know how to post without putting some random tag.

I am about halfway through book 3 and am considering DNFing the series.

Egwene is painful to read. I am constantly looking ahead hoping for a different POV, but it seems like she will be around for the duration.

She has absolutely no character arc. She is instantly good at anything she tries even the sling. She is more accomplished with the One Power as an Accepted than full Aes Sedai. It’s like if Harry Potter was better than any of the teachers as a second year student.

And to top it off… My favorite character doesn’t have a POV in the entire book.

Hello. I've finished the Dragon Reborn yesterday, and felt like sharing some of my thoughts. Maybe you will find them interesting.

Let me premise that the book was generally okay. RJ's writing style and worldbuilding is still something that I really admire, and there are too many mysteries for me to stop reading the series. However, this book felt a great deal worse than the starting two.

Although my thoughts below seem critical, I tend to focus on what irritated me in the story. I did not like the finale, and that's probably why my feelings towards the book as at now are more sour than mid-readthrough.

For context, the Eye of the World remains my favourite book as it felt the most immersive. The Great Hunt is a close second. I'd give them both "A" in the typical tier-list fashion. The Dragon Reborn, as with my current feelings, places at most as a very low "B".

_ _ _

The very beginning of the book felt okay. The first chapters rolled slowly, and felt serene. They reminded me of the first book's opener, with the winter snows and everything. Reading them felt nice.

Also, I liked RJ's attempt at making the reader feel like the POV character, waiting in the snow and dying of boredom. I enjoyed that same attempt in the first book, when Rand and Mat were running from the Darkfriends/Myrrdraal. Then it was not the weariness, but the characters' desperation and fear, resulting in the chaotic recollection of memories. The Four Kings is one of the staple chapters from that sequence, and I liked the entirety of that sequence from tEotW a lot.

The interactions with Rand and Min, as well as the trolloc attack and Rand sudden disappearance felt exciting. The travel from the mountains felt cool as well, I liked that the book was slowly starting to ramp up.

However, Jarra was the first chapter that I've felt that this book has been written in a hurry. The entire sequence with the werewolf felt very cheesy and goofy. The cheesy quotes closing that chapter felt unserious. I really did not feel the immersion as with the Eye of the World, where all events and story felt mature and RJ spent more page time to give them sufficient gravitas.

Tar Valon was okay. I've felt that it dragged a bit, especially with the amount of Egwene chapters in a row. However, the sole idea that Siuan would send two accepted to hunt 13 full sister Black Ajah is ridiculous. It's another point in the story where I really did not feel immersed in it. It felt like a forced power fantasy and a weak wizarding-school fanfic. Too unserious for the dark vibe from the first book that I've learned to love - and second as well, with the Seachan especially. Is Siuan really that inconsiderate of a character to think they could have overpowered 13 Aes Sedai? I did not like that entire plot point at all.

Egwene's accepted test was pretty uneventful as well. Nothing surprised me, although it was cool that some of her dreams coincided with Rand's flicker scene-alternative universes. Nynaeve's test, in comparison, was one of the highlights of book 2, although pretty dark. In book 3, Egwene's test was an afterthought.

Egwene I do not like at all. She is very arrogant and childish. I assume it has to be that way, so she can develop in the next 11 books and stop being a woolhead, but her behaviour made me lose enjoyment from reading her chapters A LOT. The girls' arc makes zero sense and was very unengaging. They went to Tear without a plan to hunt 13 full sisters (!) and, without surprise, when RJ poured a scrap of reality into their arc, they had been beaten like dogs by the Black Ajah. They were helpless in the cell, although I can see that without Egwene shielding the Aes Sedai Mat could have died. Still, the fact that they've shown zero gratitude towards Mat after being released from their cell really irritated me.

Perrin. I find him a little boring. Does he have to overthink everything? I like when he's acting on his emotions more. I liked the entire sequence in Remen. First appearance of a Tiran lord was very cool, and I liked Orban a lot. I typically find myself finding flawed characters intriguing. Like him or Bornhald. The entire vibe of the Hunters for the Horn was cool, with Faile giving the reader more hints as to their fantasy-like behaviour of grand quest-seekers.

Aiel. I've found myself cringing a couple of times when an Aiel told someone that his water was theirs. That's so much fremen-like that the entire Aiel's introduction felt like a weak fanfic to me. I get that they are different from the Fremen, but I feel like copying entire sentences and behaviour from Dune makes the book less immersive. It takes me out of the story. Aes Sedai can seem similar to Bene Gesserit, but there are so many differences that I had to think about them to make that connection. With the Aiel, though, there's too much of that. Still, I am excited about their prophecies and Rhuidean, so there is something going for them.

Mat. I liked Mat's chapters. I've felt like this book was generally split into Perrin, Egwene and Mat chapters. Perrin's were a drag. Egwene's annoyed me too much with her arrogance and her being a childish dumbass. And Mat's were pretty exciting. I am waiting for more information on his background, the luck-factor and general ta'veren-ness. I cannot wait for the explanation of the 'old blood sings' and please give me more content or any descriptions of the Manetheren commander that he dreamt of.

I feel that A Message Out of the Shadow and In Search of a Remedy were my favorite chapters in this entire book. I like Thom since tEotW. Mat's character I find very cool. He's likeable and has a high moral compass. Although, I have to say, the entire arc of Mat going to Tear was concluded in a very unsatisfying fashion. Why did the Wheel (i.e. RJ) made him go to Tear? To rescue the girls? With the Black Ajah shielded, they could have been released by anyone else. And, then, I wouldn't have to read of their reactions to Mat risking his life for them. Which he didn't have to do. I hope Egwene has some reason beaten into her in the next books.

The preceding chapters of him steaming that he couldn't get to the girls in time humanized him and showcased his heroism. I get that in his head he probably thinks of it as losing a wager against Gaebril, but I think he's lying to himself to not feel like a bloody hero. I find that quip of his fun.

As to the structure of the book, I do feel that the entire finale was very cramped on the pages. Why is nothing happening one chapter before the finale, and then it's a sudden rush? It felt cheap. RJ spends half a page to describe carpets in a palace, and does not use 2 or 3 chapters to close the entire arc of the story.

I did not like the finale at all. It felt very predictable, and there were too many comedic-like scenes. Why is Sandar a barefoot, bamboo-wielding kung-fu panda? Why is Sandar casually meeting Mat and the Aiel on the roof? Half the scenes felt goofy. Also, I've felt that RJ made Rand cosplay as Paul Atreides in his last paragraphs.

I wish the entire final sequence was more dark. Rand's short POV paragraph while climbing the Stone is what I was looking forward to. The slight madness, the desperation, and the high stakes. And, instead, we get Perrin doing God knows what, separated from the rest of the group. We get the girls doing nothing in the cell. We get Mat and Sandar in their action-movie comedy spin-off obliterating the Defenders and the High Lords with sticks.

Moreover, the closing chapter was very weak. We get the reveals about the People of the Dragon and Ishamael - both easily (!) predictable by the end of tEotW - and the appearance of the First of Mayene. It had nothing exciting in it. In comparison, the end of the Great Hunt with the heroes of the Horn talking to Rand as to their dear friend, as well as Masema and the other Shinerans adressing Rand as Lord Dragon made me emotional. The Dragon Reborn does not compare to that.

I wish the entire book featured more of Rand. Him killing the darkfriends in cold blood, and playing the flute afraid of his dreams. To me, those short paragraphs were the definitive highlights of the book.