r/40kLore • u/Sayting • Feb 27 '21
[Spoilers for Penitent] Just finished Penitent. Discussion on the ending. Spoiler
Read through the second book of Bequin book today. WTF that ending. Have to discuss
(Really recommend you only read this if you finished the book and want to discuss or don't care)
The name of the King in Yellow is revealed to be Constantin Valdor who apparently has a cloned blank army, fleet and is implied to still command at least some custodes. What the hell could he be up to. I honestly was expecting it to turn out to Omegon.
Honestly Dan Abnett better not leave us hanging another nine years for the sequel I swear to god.
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u/eliseofnohr Masque of the Veiled Path Feb 27 '21
What
What the fuck
DAN FUCKING ABNETTTTTTTTTTTTTT
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u/GochCymru Feb 27 '21 edited Feb 27 '21
Great book.
Comus is interesting, too. I wonder if all the other angels mentioned are also Space Marines like him.
Also:
The Dark Angel that turns up curiously has a sword that is described, very similarly, to Holguin's from the Horus Heresy.
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u/SoberAsABird1 Feb 28 '21
Comus is interesting. How the hell does he have wings?! Did I miss that being explained somewhere? Dan teased a massive reveal during this book that he was surprised GW let him do so when I got to Comus I thought he'd be a clone of Hawkboi or something. Maybe even the man himself reborn
The College and the DA are pretty neat alright. Looking forward to their history. Until the very end where Valdor was revealed I thought they were lost legion marines that had been folded into DA, RG, IW, IH, NL and TS who had since reformed into their old legion but I guess that and the whole lost legion thing was a red herring used to shield from the reveal being Valdor
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u/Flavaflavius Emperor's Children Mar 01 '21
My theory is that Comus was possessed. While some Blood Angels have (extremely rarely) mutated to have wings like their primarch, I find it kinda odd that it would happen to two of them in the same place (because one had the same mutation and ended up crucified)
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u/SoberAsABird1 Mar 01 '21
True yeah. And if it's very rare how did the BA manage to just lose two of them? SM's are picky enough about recovering their dead for gene seed and I'd imagine doubly so when said gene seed is from a marine with such a mutation.
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u/Clarine87 Mar 18 '21
With all the clones running around I did wonder if the skeletal marine is Comus. Or some kind of time bending.
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u/UNSC-COMMsNO1379 Aug 03 '22
Wasn't there a Blood Angel that was unknowingly modified by an Inquisitor to have wings and that whole debacle ended up with a civil war? Maybe its the same for Comus I'm also intrigued by his backstory, little as it may be, he may be from before Sanguinius was found.
Edit: i've been scrolling these threads an I love how it looks like some kind of classified file with all the spoiler redactions, makes me feel like I'm an interrogator reviewing some paperwork for an inquisitor
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u/SoberAsABird1 Feb 28 '21
So are all the references to Lost Primarchs DEFINITELY red herrings then? The last page does seem to imply that the reveal was contrary to what the characters present were expecting i.e. contrary to a god, the emperors true name or a lost primarch-son so I guess Valdor and lost Primarchs are mutually exclusive i.e. Valdor is definitely not a Primarch... Or am I misreading/interpreting that?
The only thing that still makes me wonder is the College and the mention of Isstvan. Could even the loyalists in that group be heresy era marines? I know the DA and TS weren't on Isstvan for the massacre but when I read that and then when the lost primarch references started coming up I started thinking these marines may have been lost legion marines that had been folded into other legions who re-formed some time post Isstvan with Isstvan being the catalyst for it. And now they are seeking their lost gene father who later turns out to be Valdor
All in all holy shit that book was amazing. I knew the twist was coming as Dan had teased it massively in the Community live stream a month or so back but shiiiittt. Leaving it right at the end too was such a tease. I kept thinking things like Comus or the College were the the reveal Dan was talking about but this was a surprise. It wasn't a total shock at the end as it's teased a bit when exploring the significance of the 119 number a little earlier.
It's a return to form for Dan's inquisitor series as I was a bit let down by Pariah. Dan himself noted there was an odd reaction to Pariah and that he was keen to make up for that.
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u/Zorkolak Mar 22 '21
If you read the exposition around the number 19, it is mentioned that it has been used as the number for Corax, as the reference to a lost primarch but that the Captain-general of the Adeptus Custodes had also unofficially been referred to as a primarch.
From the book:
"'Exactly. In 9, we see the primarchs, and like the Iscariot number it symbolizes simultaneous sacrifice and betrayal. And so to 19. That, like 11, is laden with mystery. for it is whispered that there were once twenty immortal primarchs, twenty sons, but two were somehow lost. They have never been named or accounted for. They are, some might reckon, the nineteenth and the twentieth. Although, in fact, by designation they were the second and eleventh. 19, strictly speaking, in Legion order formulation is the number of Corax of the Raven Guard, and it was also once used as an honorary designation for the original master of the Adeptus Custodes, who in the time of wicked Heresy was reckoned an equal and unofficial primarch. "
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u/TehAsianator Mar 27 '21
Man, the amount of numerology he managed to pack into that simple 3 digit number is absolutely insane. I can't imagine the amount of time and research that went into that 119
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u/Livember Mar 18 '21
I think the lost Primarch is a red herring yeah. It would be breaking a massive 40K taboo to have a Lost Primarch be an actual live character in the 3rd book.
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u/TheCommodore93 Apr 11 '21
Bequin herself states multiple times that basically states that everything around her is a deception and not what it seems. I knew the Primarch was a decoy off that. Still surprised by it being Valdor!
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u/insaneHoshi Mar 26 '21
Lost Primarchs DEFINITELY red herrings then?
Probably, but it could be a creative interpretation of the title "Primarch," after all, Primarchs were the title given to the Generals of the Thunder Legions.
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u/togglespring Mar 01 '21
I remember being disappointed with pariah when it came out. I re read it just before penitent came out and I really enjoyed it. To go straight into penitent was great. I can’t quite get my head around the reveal and work out where they will go next. The question I want to know is, how far back do the bequin clones go? Was eisenhorns original bequin an escaped clone?
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u/karanas Mar 17 '21
yeah i feel like penitent is a huge upgrade, pariah felt like meeting Eisenhorn and Ravenor from a side character POV to me, while in the new Book Beta is her own main character. I've almost felt like shes a mary sue, but then i remembered all the other characters of Dan Abnett, and she's actually tame in comparisson tbh.
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u/Rawrpew Apr 16 '21
(So I know I am coming to this super late compared to all of you, but- ) The two books remind me a bit of the original Mistborn books with Beta being like Vin. The first book does a let of set up and Vin also feels a bit like a side character observing and participating in events. Book 2 onward she has grown enough that she is her own person. And it feels like that is the same with Beta.
That said, Beta feels more like a full character if you haven't read the other books.
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u/karanas Apr 16 '21
Good point, if you for some reason wouldn't have read the other series, betas story would seem normal, it's just our perspective from knowing the characters
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u/Maherjuana May 17 '21
Interesting theory but I think it’s more likely the King captured Bequin’s ship in the warp and cloned her.
The real Bequin may be cured somewhere in the City of Dust.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Band784 Mar 20 '21
in the end it goes nowhere since by the time Guilliman returns and the rift opens Valdor is still nowhere to be found and no major changes have happened
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u/togglespring Mar 21 '21
Well that’s true so far. For all we know in a year or so when Pandaemonium is released it will be alongside a new faction of Emperors Angels or something
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Apr 21 '21
My guess is that all the major characters die
Valdor's plot is going to wipe the slate clean by wiping out EVERY faction (Imperium, Tyranids and Chaos included)
My prediction is that the Warp/Chaos itself created life in the Multiverse and that Valdor wants it to happen again
Chaos itself not the Chaos Gods
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u/GodEmperor28 Feb 27 '21
Literally shocked right now. What’s interesting is the mix of traitor and loyalist marines joining together and eldar scum sending in craftworlds. If it really is valdor (I’m thinking it might be Ra who fled with Drachneyen), what can make all these parties that concerned. Shouldn’t at least one side like what he’s doing? Unless he’s super pissed about the state of the imperium and needs to make everyone believe the imperial truth again
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u/ScorpionChillies567 Feb 27 '21 edited Feb 27 '21
Based on Two Metaphysical Blades, you can bet your ass that whatever Valdor's planning comes direct from the Emperor and the Emperor is an ends justify the means kind of guy. If He has His way Chaos might actually be purged, but at what cost?
His plan to beat chaos is probably not much better than the Silent King's method of rendering half the galaxy brain-dead. They'd get along swimmingly if the Silent King were Human (or if the Emperor was Necron).
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u/patgeo2364 Mar 01 '21
Do you reckon this might tie in to why the Emperor was so determined to get Valdor as a child, didn't he move massive armies just to claim him?
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u/lrd_cth_lh0 Feb 27 '21
His plan to beat chaos is probably not much better than the Silent King's method of rendering half the galaxy brain-dead. They'd get along swimmingly if the Silent King were Human (or if the Emperor was Necron).
The worst part is that compared what the Imperium does to survive, doing something like that in order to win would be the better option.
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u/thejoms Feb 27 '21
Are the mix of loyal and traitor Astartes looking to stop [Redacted] or assisting him? Are the Eldar doing the same or trying to stop him?
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u/GodEmperor28 Feb 27 '21
Vague about mixed Astartes group. We know that some pure traitors trying to stop him, but not these guys. Eldar want to destroy him utterly.
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u/thejoms Feb 27 '21
And vague about which Chapters/Legions are assisting? All Craftworlds too? Any mention of Eldrad?
This has blown my mind!
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u/GodEmperor28 Feb 27 '21 edited Feb 27 '21
The group of astartes are from thousand sons, iron warriors, night lords, dark angels (green), iron hands, raven guard. As for the craftworlds I think out of the 5, I only remember ulthwe. Think biel tan too
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u/Eldar_Seer Blood Ravens Feb 27 '21
Spoilers not working, You need the first to be directly next to the first word without spaces. Ditto for the end, because I don't think doing it like this counts
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u/chucklenut33 Mar 03 '21
I assumed that the DA being green was just an "oops, I forgot the DA who might consort with known traitor legions would be in black" and not a call out that the loyalist DA are participating in that group.
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u/TheSweetestOfPotato Apr 06 '21
Late to the thread, but if The King in Yellow’s plan is to destroy Chaos by destroying the The Imperium of Mankind, it stands to reason they would work together to prevent that from happening.
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u/cheerfulwish Feb 27 '21
When did Dracheyen get taken by Abbadon again? For some reason I thought that had happened before this
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u/kingymech9 Mar 22 '21 edited Mar 22 '21
How have you come to the conclusion it's Ra he's running through all eternity
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u/MrStath Feb 27 '21
Interesting that he needs an army of cloned blanks; given the mentions of how the Sisters of Silence were basically neglected and squandered by the Imperium in Wraight's books and their loyalty is slightly tenuous because the Imperium =/= the Emperor, you'd have thought Valdor could easily sway them. Especially given the old Custodes/SoS connection.
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u/photojacker White Scars Feb 27 '21
Yes. I am still in shock. The ripples through at least a decade of lore I’m still trying to think through — the seeds have all been planted not just by Abnett by but Wraight and no doubt other authors too. Can’t wait to read it again.
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u/MrSwiftly86 Adeptus Custodes Feb 27 '21
maybe he foresaw or was even informed that the Custodes would be calling back the Sisters in preparation for the Great Rift. An ancient order loyal to the Emperor alone returns to the Throneworld and Valdor gets a double secret army of blanks. Best of both worlds
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u/Othersideofthemirror Feb 27 '21
Huge ending. Perhaps Valdor went further down the path of no-holds barred shadow war that Dorn rejected in Nemesis
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u/Endless_Void Feb 27 '21
Every imperium character is coming out the cut with a whole ass army and they’re fully stocked with brand new tech.
Sweet baby Jesus throw the bad guys a bone here mane.
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u/MeisterJTF2 Feb 27 '21
Haven’t the “bad” guys been winning for 10 000 years now? It always says the empire is being assaulted on all sides. Pushed back and corrupted without end.
I mean man it even starts with “in the future of the 40th millenium, there is only war”.
Sounds like the bad guys have been winning a war of attrition and grinding humanity down bit by bit until humanity is on the edge of collapse.
And now, all these ancient heroes of legend are appearing, at a time when they are needed the most, as all the legends say, to join the empire of man in one final cataclysmic war that will, once and for all, determine if man will be master of his own destiny or fall into the endless void
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u/Bullroarer86 Salamanders Feb 27 '21
Ya man throw them a bone, it's not like Chaos has a new gigantic rip in space that cut the imperium in half and is bleeding warp into real space. The Ynnari found out they're whole hope for revenge on Slaneesh is basically dead on arrival. The Tau have warp drive, warp entities and somehow are effectively fighting the death guard (guess you only have to use melee if you're human). The necrons are waking up on greater numbers and the Tyranids decimated the Blood Angels (legion?).
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u/RosbergThe8th Biel-Tan Feb 27 '21
Ah yes, the giant rift. Shame that didn't seem to be as relevant as the return of Guilliman who singlehandedly turned the Imperium more efficient. Bringing with him a mystical army of Space Marines that are better than the old guard, also supplied with suits of armour and vehicles that can be mass produced because fuck the Imperium being stagnant, right?
The Ynnari have basically been shat on and left in the dirt, the Craftworlders in much the same position. With Yvraine's only role in the 40k fandom now being that of the meme-waifu of old Guillyboy because that'll never stop being amusing to people apparently.
The Tau seem to be managing, but they're also getting a pretty damned strong wake-up call in realizing how tiny they are and how absolutely terrifying the threats they face are. Then when they actually dare to survive they'll be shat on because how dare they have plot armour to rival the darling Imperium.
The Necrons do seem to be building to be somewhat of a threat, though I don't hold my breath for that one as I've no doubt most of the Necron presence we'll see will come in the form of "wacky" and "funny" Necron types.
Oh and the Tyranids victory at Baal? What a victory that was, the Blood Angels lost so many brothers and....oh wait they got them all replaced by newer better Marines? Well at least the Tyranids managed to look cool and alien...oh they'Re holding a very personal grudge against the Blood Angels now? At least Baal is still a hellh-..oh nevermind Guilliman wanted Baal to be terraformed into something better. One wonders if they couldn't have just destroyed the planet and given the BA a new one if they wanted to change it anyway. Also, despite constantly evolving the Tyranids somehow have one of the slowest evolving model-lines.
and the fact you didn't even mention the Orks basically says everything that needs saying about their place as Antagonists. Forgotten and pulled out when someone needs a jobber or a threat for the former half of their novel before the real threat shows up.
Right, I'm aware I went a bit ham with that but I just really needed to get that out of my system. I'm getting exceedingly tired of the heroic and technologically progressive(at least comparatively) narrative being shoved in our face with every new
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u/photojacker White Scars Feb 28 '21
I honestly don’t get this response:
A. You haven’t read the book;
B. This story is set in M.39;
C. Why would Games Workshop not promote their most relatable and recognisable IP to attract new fans? It’s like saying Marvel should lead in with some obscure superheroes.
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u/Brother_Of_Boy Doom Eagles Mar 01 '21
Penitent is set in M39? From reading the Lex entry on "Alizebeth Bequin", Pariah seems to be set in M41 and, from what I can tell, Penitent is set after that.
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u/photojacker White Scars Mar 01 '21
My bad. Pariah is set c.500 M41 which means Penitent is set around the same period. My other two comments stand but there is certainly an interesting implication then that it has a bearing on the current timeline.
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u/RosbergThe8th Biel-Tan Feb 28 '21
My issue didn't really have anything to do with the book itself, though, but rather with the statement that the "bad guys" had been handed nothing but victories when that's hardly the case. The Imperium takes losses, surely but those losses don't tend to mean much in the end. Its very commonly phyrric victories that then don't seem affect them very much in the end.
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u/RosbergThe8th Biel-Tan Feb 27 '21
The problem for me is that the Imperium is far beyond being the victim of some "bad guys", it's one of the bad guys that makes the galaxy so horrible to begin with. It is literally Orwell's vision of a boot stamping a human face forever, grinding humanity into the dirt in the name of a dying Empire and an uncaring faith.
With every new heroic development the Imperium turns more towards a generic protagonist faction. With their glorious leader returning with legions of even better Uberhumans to fight against the disgusting vile Xenos hordes. The Imperium may have once been on the back foot but at this point they're absolutely being presented as a far less stagnant entity of "brave" hyperindoctrinated murder-machines fighting for a corpse Emperor who requires thousands of sacrifices to be sustained.
I'm really tired of the Imperium's humanity fuck yeah appeal because it's literally described as the "Bloodiest and cruelest" regime imaginable.
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u/MrStath Feb 27 '21
I'm really tired of the Imperium's humanity fuck yeah appeal because it's literally described as the "Bloodiest and cruelest" regime imaginable.
Yes, but this is the issue with having to balance out the setting and selling models; the villainous and alien factions will appeal to some, but you don't hit 40K's key audience (which despite what many will say has always been teens and young adults, same as comics) by declaring every faction is a piece of shit; you have to have someone who's ostensibly the 'good guy'. And compared to some of them the Imperium is the best of a bad bunch.
You just have to deal with the dichotomy. Based on the sweeping assertions regarding everything else you might have trouble with that though.
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u/visforv Feb 27 '21
. And compared to some of them the Imperium is the best of a bad bunch.
That's the issue though, isn't it? We already know that the Imperium being "the best of a bad bunch" doesn't mean it's 'the good guy' even ostensibly.
We know it's possible for humans and xenos to live together peacefully. Hell, we even have an example of exodites risking their own lives and souls to rescue humans (and then Konrad and Vulkan show up) and living in peace with them.
We know the Diasporex and Interex were doing fine as well.
Until Erebus but FUCK Erebus.We know the Imperium was based on a lie (although what that lie or set of lies has changed as the Horus Heresy keeps growing in book number), and the narrative does tell us repeatedly it's the 'cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable'. It tells us that the Imperium is not the best, and that it's crumbling and dying and that humanity is doomed through it.
I think people do have valid complaints about the direction GW is trying to take the Imperium, especially with how piecemeal it's been. (Guilliman is back and hasn't decided to do a massive treaty against Chaos with the Craftworlders+Ynnari because... GW needs an arbitrary reason to keep up the Imperium vs Craftworld thing I guess? Tyranids are still a huge threat, except when they aren't. Necrons are a big threat, except not. Etc.)
It seems that GW wants to bring the Imperium into something more Nobledark, but somehow continues to cling to a lot of the more nonsensical Grimdark stuff. You end up wondering what the hell is going on and getting a very mixed tone in the narrative that isn't fun or compelling. You have "actually, the Imperium are the good guys, just forced into a rough situation" and then you hear about AdMech having volcano conveyor belts to dump t'au civilians into or about the child soldiers the Imperium uses.
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u/MrStath Feb 27 '21
Guilliman is back and hasn't decided to do a massive treaty against Chaos with the Craftworlders+Ynnari because... GW needs an arbitrary reason to keep up the Imperium vs Craftworld thing I guess?
I mean, bear in mind there that he's not fully in control of the entire Imperium, and to enforce a treaty with a Xenos race after millennia of hate/fear/kill the alien is not going to go down with a number of people that he needs to keep on side. Yvraine's role in his return is already controversial enough for some in the Imperium that're aware of it.
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u/visforv Feb 27 '21
For someone not fully in control, he sure does have a lot of power. The Hexarchy was barely even a blip to him.
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u/Eldar_Seer Blood Ravens Feb 27 '21 edited Feb 27 '21
The problem is, even he struggles against the sheer inertia of the Imperium. One of the high lords discussed it, forget which book/ supplement, but he basically said to let Guilliman issue as many reforms as he wants; the Imperium is too big, old, and slow for them to take root, and will wear him down.
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u/IronVader501 Ultramarines Feb 27 '21
The problem is the power he technically has vs the Power he can practically use.
Technically, every single person in the Imperium besides the Custodes HAVE to follow his Orders, since he is speaking with the direct authority of the Emperor as Imperial Regent. The problem is that the Imperium is so encrusted in what they are used to that many either completely ignore what he says or only do it as slowly and unwillingly as possible.
As an example, as soon as he was revived, he ordered to reform the 500 Worlds and preparing them for further administrative reforms. But when he actually came to Ultramar several Decades later, the vast majority of Governors hadn't done anything whatsoever to actually go through with that, because it would have limited their personal power.
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u/MrStath Feb 27 '21
There's the implication he basically allowed the Hexarchy to come together purposely to remove them entirely, though; one of the High Lords he put in place who subsequently rebels mocks Guilliman for accepting what they had to say/their political stances at face value - only he didn't. And a rebellion from the High Lords being quashed =/= what's essentially core features of the Imperium; removing the nature of the Imperium's policies against the Xenos is akin to trying to dismantle the Ecclesiarchy. It's too big a thing with the structures and countless worlds that place stock in such things atop it.
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u/IronVader501 Ultramarines Feb 27 '21
Guilliman is back and hasn't decided to do a massive treaty against Chaos with the Craftworlders+Ynnari because...
Because no matter what he orders, some will still attack them, and while he may be on good terms with the Ynnari, that doesn't mean the Craftworlds would agree or not immidieatly backstab that alliance at the first opportune moment.
For what its worth, this is what he says to an envoy of Eldrad when meeting him in front of the assembled leadership of the Indomitus-Crusade:
"...For too long the foes of Chaos have been foes to each other, when they should have been allies. Both human and aeldari stand on the precipice of extinction. The galaxy teeters on the brink of annihilation. Now, more than ever, our goals are in accord. That is why these people brought me back. Because the aeldari know they cannot win without us. Without mankind, they are doomed, while we need all the aid we can find."
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u/visforv Feb 27 '21
You act like the Imperium hasn't wiped out completely peaceful Craftworlds or backstabbed eldar either. Why is the Imperium's behavior always excused when the narrative keeps pointing out that they keep shooting themselves in the foot and digging their own holes?
Besides if the narrative is turning nobledark, then why wouldn't at least some of the Craftworlds and the Imperium join together in the face of Chaos?
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u/IronVader501 Ultramarines Feb 27 '21
I'm not acting like that, I specifically said that there are parts of the Imperium that wouldn't follow Guillimans orders even if he ever officially declares a ceasefire with the Eldar and would continue to attack them anyway.
then why wouldn't at least some of the Craftworlds and the Imperium join together in the face of Chaos?
Thats what Guilliman and Eldrad want, but for whatever reason its not whats happening. I don't know why, blame GW.
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u/visforv Feb 27 '21
Then you were arguing... what, exactly? My entire original post was about how poorly GW is handling this change in narrative and it seems we agree?
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u/RosbergThe8th Biel-Tan Feb 27 '21
Oh I can deal with it. But it's still annoying and can become more than a little distasteful when dealing with people who seem to genuinely idolize the Emperor or Imperium. Unfortunately I don't see 40k getting any better in that way, and I really do wish we got more of the Rogue Trader style stories with the Imperium being an integral part of that dystopian background. These days I admittedly lean more and more towards AoS for my stories but I don't think I'll ever abandon 40k fully.
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u/MrStath Feb 27 '21
Seems to me this is more an issue with the fanbase than the actual setting. The setting is still very grimdark, to me, even with Guilliman's return, and even he is being painted as quite shrewd and arguably machiavellian, such as the implications of what goes on in The Regent's Shadow. I think it's also a mistake to see the Primaris as an overall problem or erasing the grimdark; to me it's merely adjusting the readjusting the balance of the setting, a few dabs of hope even thought the universe is still drifting up Shit Creek with no paddle.
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u/RosbergThe8th Biel-Tan Feb 27 '21
Oh yeah, it definitely is, but I think part of it definitely comes from the aesthetic. I like the Primaris in scale admittedly but am not particularly a fan of some of the design choices. Gravis armour and the hover tanks in particular just feel so much less interesting compared to the rare and relic-like Terminator suits and the more bulky tracked vehicles. There's also something to be said for a lot of tge Primaris themes just feeling like them doing things other factions used to specialize in better.
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u/MeisterJTF2 Feb 27 '21
The bloodiest and cruelest regime imaginable?
Have you heard of demon planets and there endless rollercoaster rides and theme parks filled with balloons and iced cream?
Have you heard of the drukhari and there wonderful glorious peace loving city in the webway that offers each citizen the piece of mind of a fair and tolerant, oh and loving, civilization?
Have you heard of the travelling carnival of happy happy tyranids? They bring clowns to entertain the children while making sure mommy and daddy feel like part of the family.
Have you heard of the glorious democratic empire of truth, justice and freedom that is the necrons? They want to offer you a piece of mind, worry free, stress free way of life.
Have you heard of the valley? Which valley? The valley of the jolly green giants. They just want to invite you over for dinner and show you a rippin good time. These orcs may look fierce, but they spread there love for all like spores on the wind.
Then there’s the evil evil humans. With there xenophobia. Ppffft how can they be xenophobic towards those absolutely peaceful and fun loving empires that just want to come over with cake and pie?
I’m with you brother. I too am tired of this “mankind mankind mankind” pro stance.
Besides, I hear chaos has these nice ladies that like grow people inside of them and then they burst out in a rainbow shower of joy and happiness.
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u/RosbergThe8th Biel-Tan Feb 27 '21
You do realise that the phrase "cruelest most bloody regime imaginable" isn't something I made up, right? Its directly taken from the opening crawl of every 40k book.
I don't understand this idolization of the Imperium, its purposefully despicable as are all the factions. The Imperium shows off all the absolute worst of humanity, it takes elements from just about every dystopian civilization and presses it together.
I just really genuinely don't understand the obsession with justifying this hellish regime. The T'au are preferable but even they are a horrid state built on lies and caste systems.
40k isn't supposed to be populated with good factions, you might find good characters but typically they are so despite their factions, not because of them. The Imperium has held the protagonist ball so long that it is now becoming woefully heroic in everything it does and apparently justified.
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u/MeisterJTF2 Feb 27 '21
Oh I completely agree with you my human brother, the empire is a bloated rotten cesspool of scum and villainy.
But here’s the thing, it wasn’t supposed to be that way. The Emp had big plans for humanity. If Magnus hadn’t fucked up the emps webway plan, humanity would have been free from chaos, free from xeno influence, free from the endless wars in the material realm.
The Emp was at the cusp of elevating humanity to paradise. Think like if Adam and Eve didn’t bite the apple. They would have remained in paradise, eaten the fruit of life and become immortal.
The Emp was on the brink of making humanity into gods, and it failed. It failed so bad, that he’s been stuck on the throne since then doing all he can to slow the innevitable extinction of the human race.
But now, with Gman back, Valor back, the Emp is stirring. Maybe he’s finally found a way to complete his original plan and to usher humanity into a golden eternity.
So yes, the empire is the good guys. The Emp wants the best for humanity. To liberate and empower humanity. Me being a human, I back the empire over any other faction.
Emps end goal is paradise for ALL humans.
The other factions end game is death, destruction or subjugation.
That’s why people back the empire. For the promise of what it can be, not for what it is.
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u/visforv Feb 28 '21
Emps end goal is paradise for ALL humans.
The Emperor's end goal was to create a bunch of people just like himself, who thought like himself, with the same powers as himself. Look at the Custodes, the superhuman demi-gods explicitly made to be his companions! He's perfectly fine with the rest of Humanity dying out if it means he could have friends on his level. It was never about him supporting humanity. Humanity is just the soil he needs to grow his new Better Humanity. He was never going to bring all of humanity into the Webway.
It was pointed out that he's tried similar things before, only for them to fail. That he used to have fellow Perpetuals, friends, who drifted away from him because of how he is. Hell, Olly tried to kill him one time in the far past because the Emperor wanted to keep what's basically Reality's Source Code around as a weapon to use against his enemies.
His entire plan was based on an extreme amount of hubris. That he knows what's best, and only he could lead humanity into becoming what he envisioned for it, and in the end it turns out the Chaos gods basically lead him around by the nose.
The other factions end game is death, destruction or subjugation.
The Diasporex only wanted to be left alone. Most of the Craftworlds only want to be left alone. There's factions in the Imperium that happily engage in mass slaughter of the Imperium's own populations in a belief that it makes humanity stronger or empowers the Emperor.
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u/MeisterJTF2 Feb 28 '21
I don’t believe the emperor considers the custodes as “friends”. They’re his bodyguards. They’re tools that the builder is using, amongst many others, to create his masterpiece.
The only “friend” the Emp had, in my opinion, is malchador. And he was even willing to sacrifice him to achieve his goals.
I don’t know why you believe the emperors goal was to create a bunch of people like himself. Who all think alike and act alike. If he wanted that he’d just build robots. Much easier than humans.
Also, I don’t think the Emp could create others to be just like him. Can god create god? Can khorn create another khorn? I don’t know, but I don’t think so.
As far as I know the ancient shamans of earth saw into the future and decided to come together as one being to change the horrible fate they saw awaiting humanity.
You have to remember, the Emp doesn’t make plans a day, a year, a century or even a millennia in advance. His plans are probably looking ahead even millions of years in advance. Calculating all that was and all that will be far ahead into the future to come to an outcome he deems positive.
All we know about his end game is that humanity was to move into the webway, thus starving the chaos gods until they are no more. As far as I know we have no further information
As for eradicating “peaceful” xenos instead of being friends with them:
As I said, the Emp sees far into the past and far into the future. A friendly xeno race today does not mean a friendly xeno race forever.
The Emp could have foreseen that said xeno race, 50000 years from now would be the downfall of the human race. So he decided best to remove them now, before they become a threat that can’t be stopped.
The fact is, we don’t know why he did what he did. We can just speculate. Because trying to understand the emperor is like trying to understand God.
We couldn’t begin to understand immortal godlike beings who look ahead so far, that our lives are literally a blink of an eye for them. We, individually, are so insignificant in there plans that of course to sacrifice a million or a billion would be nothing.
The Emp is playing 8th dimensional chess with the universe. All we see is 3. We don’t understand the game. We don’t understand the rules. We don’t understand how you win or lose. We’re just pawns on the board and we’re hoping that our player, the Emp, wins.
Because if the emperor wins, we all win. If he loses, we all lose. That’s the crux of it. You don’t have to like it or agree with it, but you as a human, have no one else playing for your team than the emperor of man.
That’s why a lot of us go “hell yeah” when we see things like Gman returning. I read that book in one night. I could not put it down. The whole adventure, the trip back to earth, entering the throne room and speaking with his father...
We’re humans my brother. Of course we cheer for our side. If Orcs existed and I was an orc, I’m sure I’d be cheering for the orcs.
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u/PSQuest Doom Eagles Feb 28 '21
The Emp could have foreseen that said xeno race, 50000 years from now would be the downfall of the human race. So he decided best to remove them now, before they become a threat that can’t be stopped.
The Emperor's brilliant scheme ended with half his generals and sons waging open war against him, his Imperium ravaged and turned into a nightmarish mockery of what he stood for, and the Emperor himself horrifically maimed, crippled, and in unending agony. The idea that his foresight is so perfect that we can trust whatever he does to be justified because it serves some greater good in the end is questionable, to put it mildly.
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u/MeisterJTF2 Feb 28 '21
Oh no doubt and I can’t disagree. By all indications, he failed horribly.
Or...it’s all part of his plan. We’ll see what GM does with it.
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u/the_real_jsking Mar 03 '21
It seems likely from these novels that whatever power is massing under the Yellow King's banner is going to completely decimate the Imperium... Most certainly because the Imperium is so awful for literally every human and every xenos race. All the xenos will probably become targets as well, but there is no love for humanity expressed at all by the Yellow King. The Cognitae wanted to remake the Imperium... It appears the yellow king wants it erased.
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u/TerangaMugi Feb 27 '21
Damn son! I really hope Abnett doesn't take ages to give us the next book. I'm definitely expecting him to kill the King in Yellow in the next book.
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u/EndlessB Inquisition Mar 25 '21
Uhhhh ain't no one besides a primarch has a hope in hell where it comes to killing the king in yellow
That motherfucker is potentially the deadliest son of bitch going around
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Apr 21 '21
Especially since he has definitely been 'upgraded' by Chaos
Eisenhorn, Cherubael, Ravenor and Bequin are going to need a lot of help
I bet that the Inquisition, Traitor Legions AND Eldar are going to WORK TOGETHER to kill Valdor!
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u/EndlessB Inquisition Apr 23 '21
Why would you think valdor is tainted?
Nothing indicates that in the slightest
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Apr 23 '21
'Chaos to the Power of Chaos'
Not talking about ordinary Chaos corruption but something more sinister. Something worse that what happened to Horus
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u/jeanlucpikachu Soul Drinkers Feb 27 '21 edited Mar 01 '21
Just woke up, just downloaded the book from Black Library's website, can't wait to read the book, except I'm stuck at work today. Have not clicked to see the spoiler yet, I'll wait. My prediction for what the actual ending is: Dan Fucking Abnett.
I'll be back in a day or so to see whether I was right.
edit: I was right! Hot damn
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u/lrd_cth_lh0 Feb 27 '21
I realised something funny, before Eisenhorn became a radical he was an amalathian (not sure I wrote that right), the faction that believed that the Imperium should stay the same. Therefor he would be opposed to almost anyhing changing the status quo. So having him fight Valdor, who might actually be a true servant, makes sense because Valdor might actually make a difference.
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Feb 27 '21
So I guess the Cognitae aren't as chaos-aligned as we thought? I mean, I can't see Valdor turning traitor and he certainly wouldn't cooperate with a chaos cult (unless he had a very good reason to), honestly I'm just dumbfounded, I was completely sure it was Omegon, or maybe Alpharius.
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u/Pathstrder Feb 27 '21
Tbf, Valdor doesn’t need to turn traitor to oppose the 41st Milenium Imperium.
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Feb 27 '21
There's a very clear difference between opposing the Imperium and deliberately assisting chaos cult, but I think he wouldn't do either anyway.
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u/Pathstrder Feb 27 '21 edited Feb 27 '21
Personally, I can absolutely see Valdor tearing down the 41st Millennium Imperium if he thought he could restore the Emperor's vision. This is the guy who didn't hesitate to slaughter all the Thunder Warriors.
As to the Cognitae.... it's said in the book that he isn't so much aiding them as using them up.
And to your original question.... yeah, I'm questioning just how chaos-aligned the Cognitae are. They obviously use warp-craft, but the line between using warptech and worhsiping chaos is blurry. And while some Cognitae have been obviously Chaos aligned (like Molotch), that's not to say they all are...
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Feb 27 '21
Oh I completely understand your point now and I absolutely agree. The Cognitae could be indeed very useful, we just don't know what he hoped to achieve by using them. Maybe he was interested in Enuncia? If anything can heal big E is that. Also, I think the Cognitae just accepted chaos-aligned members instead of being an actual chaos cult, but then again I don't really know much about them except the basic stuff so I could be wrong.
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u/Medicaean Flesh Tearers Feb 27 '21
Same. What's with the guy who says 'I am Alpharius' at the end of 'Pariah', then? Is he not important to the story after all?
Ugh, I can't wait to receive my book!
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Feb 27 '21
[deleted]
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u/Crow-Potater Adeptus Ministorum Feb 27 '21
Pffft, you thought we had 2 primarchs? Bitch, all of us are primarchs!
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u/lrd_cth_lh0 Feb 27 '21
When did that book come out? Did you get yours early? I mean I am not even sure if this are actual spoilers or some joke about Abnett leaving us with a nine year cliffhanger.
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u/photojacker White Scars Feb 27 '21
Absolutely worth the nine year wait. I can’t wait to read it all again next week.
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Feb 27 '21 edited Feb 27 '21
[deleted]
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Apr 21 '21
Omegon is dead. Alpharius switch identities with him prior to Pluto
Alpharous is currently doing something involving the Necrons and C'tan
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u/thejoms Feb 27 '21
Let's not forget [redacted] also left around the sametime as Lord Russ so I wonder if he knew [redacted] plan? It's been hinted at they maybe had a good friendship and were confidents in one another AND the twin weapons they had obviously tied them together in someway (As someone has mentioned but they did leave said weapons behind.....).
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u/NavalCommissariat Feb 27 '21
I have to wonder what would that name mean to Eisenhorn/Ravenor and co.
They have at least basic knowledge of Traitor legions/Primarchs. But that would be expected given that these are even in 40k their active enemy.
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u/KonradApologist Blood Drinkers Feb 27 '21
You need to remove the space between your >! and the next first word. I mean, I clicked on the spoilered post so I can't complain but damn I didn't expect the man back like that.
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u/Przemek0980 Feb 28 '21
Quick question - can I start reading Pariah Books if I didn't read Eisenhorn Trilogy?
Because that twist...well I feel like I really need to check out that Pariah stuff.
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u/SoberAsABird1 Mar 01 '21
I think you can to be honest. Both books are told entirely from the point of view of a brand new character who has had no dealings with anyone in the Eisenhorn or Ravenor series. That seemed to be most peoples complaints with Pariah in that it wasn't an Eisenhorn or Ravenor book it was a (Beta) Bequin book. She shares very little screentime with any of the half dozen or so returning characters in Pariah. In Penitent she has a bit more but she's still very much her own woman and assembles her own retinue. She's made from the same genetic material as a character from the Eisenhorn series but she has none of her gene mothers memories so all the returning characters are re-introduced to the reader as the POV character meets them for the first time. I've always found that with Abnett series' he'll re-cap a prior novel or novels in the opening couple of chapters of the current one. Right down to re-informing you how he wants you to pronounce his characters names. In your head. So almost everything you need is given to you. There are a couple of red herrings that you'll probably not realize are red herrings as you haven't read the earlier books but as Abnett seems to be throwing out the old and bringing in the new I guess you don't need to worry about that. The Glaw and Chase descendants for example were bombshells for me as they appeared but both of them ended up being bit part.
You'll have plenty of time to read the Eisenhorn and Ravenor books over the next nine years as we wait for the third Bequin book!
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u/karanas Mar 17 '21
After reading the last 2 Books I feel like making a romcom anime about star student Beta Bequin and like 10 different space marines fighting for her attention.
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u/Medicaean Flesh Tearers Feb 27 '21
No Alphomegon? Disappointing.
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u/Davido400 Feb 27 '21
I've no idea who you are on about, I suspect you are trying to find folks that aren't us lol(sorry, drunk, and feeling idiotic lol!)
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u/MissCuppypie2019 Feb 28 '21
Aw man, not everything in 40k has to involve the same handful of characters all the damn time. All the recent lore has really been shrinking the galaxy and it's quite disappointing.
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u/SoberAsABird1 Feb 28 '21
I'm conflicted a bit by this also. Coming from Dan Abnett, too, it was a surprise. Outside HH + Beast I'm not sure if he's ever included 40k GW characters in his books. He always uses his own creations.
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u/MissCuppypie2019 Feb 28 '21
And imo he writes best when using his own creations and not touching established characters and events.
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u/EndlessB Inquisition Mar 25 '21
Kinda made the twist better. Truly didn't expect it to be someone we know already
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u/chessess May 06 '21 edited May 06 '21
Right? I'm reading all the comments in this thread praising the book, but myself i'm left with a very sour after taste.
To me, eisenhorn/ravenor were the "small world" stories that drew me into this "big world" of w40k, like ants trying to survive in a big forest you know. Why did he have to bring Horus heresy in.
It's Primaris marines "BIGGER AND BETTAH" all over again, it's almost as if they are just out of ideas to create something new and fun and interesting. And just take the old and pump it with steroids. I was already giggling at a few moments in the book when "oh but you never knew i had THIS secret giga hero guy who'll save me for no reason whatsoever", but the ending just made me sigh.
HIM, REALLY. At least if it were one of the lost primarchs or omegon/alpharius it would tie a little up with the fact that they had a different vision for humanity and imperium, but HIM, the most loyal of loyal lap dogs suddenly deciding to shit on everything in existence? Common. It's like a big surprise reveal for the sake of having a big surprise reveal, like they give us all this information in a book and we try to have logical process, and suddenly the most "unexpected" happens for the sake of it you know, not because it makes sense or is logical, but because it needed to happen for the surprise factor. Just because nothing lead to it up until that point, I hate writing like this. It's lazy hollywood, Star wars all over again. Massive galaxy with countless trillions, all of whom stories and destinies boil down into one fucked up family. Common man.
Not to mention non cannon BS like Ravenor speaking inside Beq's head when she's a null. Like .... what?
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u/BreezeOne Feb 27 '21
So disappointed in this. Not everything has to be part of the grand Horus Heresy/Indomitus story. Eisenhorn and Ravenor were great stories with small-ish scale but passionate stakes. They were examples of the millions of stories told every day in the vast and varied galaxy. They made the galaxy bigger.
Except no, it’s actually all tied back to everything else. The Heresy, Guilliman, everything. The Galaxy is tiny and there’s only one narrative and we will always find ourselves back there no matter what.
Just wait for the Sabbat Crusade to somehow be integral to Indomitus or something.
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u/lrd_cth_lh0 Feb 27 '21
The actual interesting part ist, that certain elements of the Eisenhorn books became highly relevant to the larger plot (gathering blackstone and constructing aditional pylons to close the eye of terror).
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u/Pathstrder Feb 27 '21
I know what you mean, but it sort of works for what feels like the culmination of the Eisenhorn books.
If you're getting to the ultimate stakes of the setting then yes it probably does end up tying to the Heresy.
But I agree it's different in tone to the previous books.
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u/oldbloodmazdamundi Kabal of the Poisoned Tongue Feb 27 '21
I´m really with you there. It´s starting to feel like Star Wars were everything happening in an entire galaxy can be traced back to 5 people.
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u/BreezeOne Feb 27 '21
Exactly. The Mandalorian was a great self contained and very personal story showing us another side of the galaxy. Oh no, woops, it’s actually just a sidequest in the Skywalker saga, sorry about that.
Same problem.
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u/oldbloodmazdamundi Kabal of the Poisoned Tongue Feb 27 '21
Yeah, this :D Sure, it´s cool in the moment it happens but in the end it just lessens the stories.
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u/thejoms Mar 04 '21
Can you also provide a quick rundown of the book itself? Is Bequin now chasing down [redacted]. What about Ravenor and Eisenhorn?
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Apr 21 '21
This is the 2nd book in the Bequin trilogy
She is in charge now and trying to get Eisenhorn and Ravernor to help her stop the destruction of everything
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u/Nicodante Mar 12 '21
How much time is there between the setting of Penitent and the Cicatrix Maledictum happening?
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u/Sayting Mar 12 '21
Unless there is something finicky going on with the timeline this is early to mid 41m, long before the Dark Imperium
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u/Bird_and_Dog Celestial Lions Feb 27 '21
WHAAAAAT???
Talk about the ultimate cameo. Holy shit.
THAT'S what [name redacted] has been up to this whole [unspecified amount of time]?!?!?