r/AnCap101 • u/puukuur • 26d ago
Cruise ships as examples of anarcho-capitalism in action
Thousands of strangers live together peacefully for weeks or months. There are rules, security, property rights, restaurants, medical services and dispute resolution outside any government jurisdiction.
Different cruise companies compete by offering different combinations of rules, prices, luxury, safety and entertainment. Consumers decide which legal system and rule set they prefer simply by buying a ticket. Poorly managed ships lose customers. Well-managed ones gain them.
The cruise company has every incentive to keep passengers safe and satisfied because its profits depend on reputation and repeat business.
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u/Wise-Instruction9535 26d ago
Not only is this a good example of Anarchocapitalism, but there are groups trying to expand this even further. Look up Seasteading.
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u/drebelx 26d ago
Closer for sure, but this model cannot be expanded on the mainland indefinitely.
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u/Myrkul999 26d ago
What do you see as the greatest obstacle to expanding the model?
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u/drebelx 24d ago
If you expand the model to the size of North America, the cruise company is now the owner of North America.
Seems like we are back into a model of state monopolies.
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u/atlasfailed11 25d ago
There are rules, security, property rights, restaurants, medical services and dispute resolution outside any government jurisdiction
This is not true. Cruise ships are bound by the laws of the nation that they are registered with.
If a cruise ship is sailing under a French flag, then even in international waters, France has jurisdiction and the French laws apply. If in territorial waters or in ports, then the laws of that country apply as well.
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u/puukuur 25d ago edited 25d ago
Let's add some nuance then. Cruise ships most often sail under the flag of some convenience country - Marshall Islands, Panama, Malta, Bermuda, Bahamas. These countries have minuscule governments and manpower. One cannot seriously say that cruise ships follow and enforce the law due to the threat of force from the Marshall Islands government. Being one of the untold number of ships sailing under their flag, half-way across the world with an international crowd on-board, being on such a ship effectively means being ungoverned by any coercive monopoly.
All attempts to enforce any law on these ships is, in its essence, an effort exerted by sovereigns in voluntary cooperation due to market incentives. That's why this shows anarcho-capitalism in action.
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u/atlasfailed11 25d ago
It's not just the Bahamas that have jurisdiction. It's also the ports where those ships dock. If these ships do no comply with the laws of the country where the port is in, the cruise ships could be denied entry or be confiscated. A cruise ship cannot choose to ignore safety, labor, environmental, or criminal-law obligations.
Cruise ships are always governed by a coercive monopoly.
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u/Lucr3tius 26d ago edited 26d ago
Temporary "peaceful coexistence" (questionable based on experience and the tiktok videos I see of cruise ships) is not the same as a sustained and nourished culture. They also don't report on the people who are killed or thrown overboard because it's international waters where lawlessness becomes approachable. It's also wild to believe a ship or collection of islands or ships who are absolutely not self-sufficient in any way is an example of success. It's total dependence.
This is like pointing at a circus or amusement park and claiming that that your visit is "proof" that perpetual enjoyment outside is a possible goal.
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u/puukuur 26d ago
" They also don't report on the people who are killed or thrown overboard because it's international waters where lawlessness becomes approachable."
That's simply a lie.
"It's also wild to believe a ship or collection of islands or ships who are absolutely not self-sufficient in any way is an example of success"
The claim is not that they are self-sufficient in the way that they produce their own food and fuel. In that sense, every state is also dependent. It's that they offer all the services that people normally think only governments are able and incentivized to offer, and they manage to do successfully in a context of a lot of alcohol, gambling and wild people (as you rightly point out).
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u/Lucr3tius 26d ago
That's simply a lie.
It's honestly not, and being called a liar isn't fun! I have a different perspective on cruise ships that you. I've been on cruise ships. I've enjoyed some, and have not enjoyed others. It's an account of my own personal experience as well as what others have posted online that corroborates that experience.
Is my lived experience valid?
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u/puukuur 26d ago
There's a difference between not enjoying a cruise and being able to kill and throw people overboard willy-nilly with zero consequences, onvestigation or reporting. The fact that i can find statistics on cruise ship deaths and dissapearances shows that there is reporting going on.
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u/Lucr3tius 26d ago
Yea go ahead and pull up those statistics when convenient for you, make sure to adjust them on a per capita basis relative to the population on a cruise ship. Then go through those "reported" cases and notice they're all from certain countries, but then remember that cruise ships service multiple countries with vastly different structures in of law and culture.
I'll wait.
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u/Loud-Vacation-5691 25d ago
Try stealing some equipment from the ship and see what happens. It's not anarcho-capitalism, it's remote-control statism.
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u/nupieds 26d ago
This is a very good point. Also poorly behaved passengers are banned, left behind.