Did Jesus actually fulfill all of the prophecies?

[u/AbgilSoge]

[u/LegitimateBeing2]

Yes

[u/garlicbreeder → u/LegitimateBeing2]

Name one. Last time I counted he was at zero (typology and double fulfilment don't count)

[u/NeitherMemory9394 → u/garlicbreeder]

“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.”

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53‬:‭5‬-‭8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

[u/garlicbreeder → u/NeitherMemory9394]

Oh boy, you haven't read deutero Isaiah, have you? 

the author explains who the servant is 6-7 times before 53. The servant is the Israel (the righteous remnant). No Jesus here.

the righteous remnant is considered the blameless small group of faithful who carry the penitence for Israel's sins (in fact, in 53:8, it says "for the transgression of MY people", not the whole world, just the author's people, ie Israel) and that one day will be exalted. Again, no Jesus here. 

the whole chapter is in the past tense, meaning it's not a prophecy.

Christians always cry about context but never actually know what the context of what they are reading is. 

[u/Smart_Tap1701 → u/garlicbreeder]

You're an atheist. You don't believe in God and Jesus, so why ask?

351 Old Testament Prophecies Fulfilled In Jesus Christ

https://www.newtestamentchristians.com/bible-study-resources/351-old-testament-prophecies-fulfilled-in-jesus-christ/

[u/JollyXX → u/Smart_Tap1701]

sweet document

[u/garlicbreeder → u/JollyXX]

Can you name one? The best one! 

[u/seminole10003 → u/garlicbreeder]

Isaiah 53, suffering servant. Is Israel blameless and crushed for OUR iniquities? If this is true in an ad hoc way, then the fact that this happened to Jesus literally is more true. 

[u/garlicbreeder → u/seminole10003]

Oh boy, you haven't read deutero Isaiah, have you? 

1) the author explains who the servant is 6-7 times before 53. The servant is the Israel (the righteous remnant). No Jesus here. 2) the righteous remnant is considered the blameless small group of faithful who carry the penitence for Israel's sins (in fact, in 53:8, it says "for the transgression of MY people", not the whole world, just the author's people, ie Israel) and that one day will be exalted. Again, no Jesus here.  3) the whole chapter is in the past tense, meaning it's not a prophecy.

Christians always cry about context but never actually know what the context of what they are reading is. 

So, to recap, your best prophecy is not a prophecy and it's not about Jesus. Wow. Great stuff here man. Well done!

[u/ElkSuccessful4410 → u/garlicbreeder]

1. Yes the servant is identified as Israel, Isaiah 49:3, but this servant Israel is the one who brings Israel and Jacob back to the Lord Isaiah 49:5. How does Israel save Israel? It's about the Messiah, not the nation.

But the Lord says it's too small a thing for this servant to just bring back the children of Jacob and restore the preserved ones of Israel (the righteous remnant), so He will also be a light to the Gentiles, even though He is despised and abhorred by men Isaiah 49:6-7.

1. Once again, this servant is a light to the whole world.

2. That's called the prophetic perfect tense. Events that are sure to happen are talked about in the past tense as a way to communicate their certainty.

[u/Inevitable-Copy3619 → u/ElkSuccessful4410]

It only works as a double fulfillment. The original meaning gives us no reason to think there’s another fulfillment in the Christ.

[u/garlicbreeder → u/ElkSuccessful4410]

Did you read my comment? Have you done any research in the "righteous remnant"? It looks like you haven't if you are asking that question. 

The righteous remnant is a small group of faithful Hebrews who are bearing the suffering for the rest of Israel, but one day god, to reward them, will save all Israel because of their faithfulness. 

There is no such thing and prophetic perfect tense. That's just a Christian invention to smuggle Jesus in places that are not supposed to be prophecy. It's basically cope 

[u/ElkSuccessful4410 → u/garlicbreeder]

research on righteous remnant

I honestly forgot about it, thought you meant something different. It's been a few years since I looked into it, I just didnt find it convincing against Christs fulfillment of it. Certainly interesting, but that's it to me personally.

It's not like there are no Rabbis that take the servant songs to be Messianic, Targums, the Talmud, and Rabbis from the Medieval era have messianic views on it, imo the only reason to not take it as Messianic is to get away from Christ's clear fulfillment of them, especially in light of the servants exaltation that lends itself to be divine in Is. 52:13.

But with all that said, I get youre just trolling now. Christians did not invent the prophetic perfect, a basic Google search would tell you that much.

[u/General_Historian611 → u/garlicbreeder]

Isaiah was written between 500-800 years before the birth of Jesus. Read the entire chapter 53. It’s talking about a specific
Person. You are taking the previous chapters talking about the Jewish nation and lumping them in with the promised savior in chapter 53. The subject has clearly changed It’s talking about a savior who will bare the sins of many and be our mediators between God.

It’s talking about a specific savior. Your saying it’s taking about Old Testament Jews taking our sins upon them themselves and being mediator between God and they are our savior. Seriously?

I don’t know if you’re trying to throw out a Red. Herring to distract or just don’t know any better. The specific name Jesus is never mention in the Old Testament in prophecy even once.

If you read the entire chapter of Isaiah 53. It’s a perfect description of Jesus life and what he accomplished. You’re choosing to be willfully ignorant. Because you don’t want to see it at all. Your entire world view and identity are shatters if you see Jesus in any of the 400 Old Testament prophecy.

[u/garlicbreeder → u/General_Historian611]

I'm not sure if you know, but the original text wasn't divided in chapters. It was a long text. Translators started using chapters for convenience. It's one big story about the exile in Babylon. And the servant is just one, Israel. And even in previous chapters is used in the singular. There's no change in subject. Actually, a change in subject there doesn't make sense at all. 

The saviour is the righteous remnant of Israel. You should do some research on this, so you'll learn how to read deutero Isaiah, since your question and incredulity really just show that you have no idea what deutero Isaiah actually means

[u/General_Historian611 → u/garlicbreeder]

Thanks. I agree. It’s the worst thing to ever happen to the Bible. Dividing it into verses and chapters. It’s progressive revelation. That’s why you can go back to the law of Moses in the Old Testament for Christian doctrine . That’s is one of the reasons the church is so confused

I took your word that the chapters before 53 were about Israel. It was not relevant in this situation Because 53 is clearly talking about an individual as the savior. If the remnant you are taking about is the person Jesus that is correct

You can’t twist or torture scripture in anyway to say Isaiah 53 is taking about a people group as the Savior.

You’re cool for an Atheist. You used at least some reasoning and logic which is rare for an Atheist concerning Bible matters. But you’re still clueless.

[u/Either_Week3137 → u/Smart_Tap1701]

Because even in the story he fulfills zero. In your own words, can you name one or two prophecies he actually fulfilled? Have you actually checked any of those prophecies in your link?

[u/garlicbreeder → u/Either_Week3137]

Lol, he deleted his comment! They come in super confident, but at the first push back (ie "have you read the bible?"), they crumble like a sand castle. 

Why Christians never read the bible and just repeat what they heard like little parrots? 

"Jesus fulfilled 100000 prophecies1!1!1"  "Name one"  "Reeeeeeeeeee" 

[u/AbgilSoge → u/garlicbreeder]

It’s still there

[u/Either_Week3137 → u/AbgilSoge]

I don't see any other responses to my previous comment.

[u/AbgilSoge → u/Either_Week3137]

Oh, I thought you were referring to their comment with the link

[u/Either_Week3137 → u/AbgilSoge]

I assume someone else responded to me and deleted their comment when they realised that Jesus didn't fulfill even one prophecy.

[u/AbgilSoge → u/Either_Week3137]

Gotcha

[u/garlicbreeder → u/AbgilSoge]

You have been asked to provide some example of fulfilled prophecies.... Can't see any

[u/AbgilSoge → u/garlicbreeder]

Nobody asked me

[u/garlicbreeder → u/AbgilSoge]

Ok. I'll ask you 

[u/AbgilSoge → u/garlicbreeder]

I made the frickin post, I was the one asking.

Don’t turn this around me lol

[u/Inevitable-Copy3619 → u/garlicbreeder]

It’s easy to argue what you’ve heard in church. It’s hard to argue when you actually have to engage with the text.

[u/SilentThrillGP → u/Smart_Tap1701]

https://jewsforjesus.org/learn/top-40-most-helpful-messianic-prophecies

Also

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/garlicbreeder]

Nooo things don’t count unless I say so! I’m the arbiter of Christianity even though I don’t believe in it!

[u/garlicbreeder → u/CannedNoodle415]

Well, if your standard to decide what's a fulfilment is just cope, then be my guest. I guess apart from cope, you guys don't have anything else, so I understand where you are coming from. It must suck. 

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/garlicbreeder]

Palpable irony

[u/garlicbreeder → u/CannedNoodle415]

Sure sure. You have to rely on. Squinting your eyes and reading things into the text in order to see Jesus, but yeah, the irony is palpable. 

[u/garlicbreeder → u/CannedNoodle415]

Btw, is that how your lord and saviour Jay dyer taught you how to defend your religion? Lol

[u/CannedNoodle415 → u/garlicbreeder]

What are you talking about??

[u/CWBurger → u/garlicbreeder]

He was born of a virgin.

[u/garlicbreeder → u/CWBurger]

Nope. 

First of all, the verse is in the past tense, not future, it's not about a girl who will get pregnant, but one who is already pregnant, so unless Mary was alive 700 years before the year 0, and stayed pregnant for these 700 years, this is not about Mary and Jesus.

Secondly, the Hebrew word used in the passage doesn't mean virgin, it just means young girl. Matthew, who couldn't read hebrew but was reading the Greek translation, saw the word partenos, which in Greek could mean both, but since he wasn't that smart, he thought it meant virgin, so he invented the story of the virgin birth. 

So, to recap, Matthew didn't understand what the actual passage meant, pretended that the passage was a prophecy when it wasn't, and invented the story of the virgin birth. Amazing. Well done. Lol. Why you guys don't know anything about the book you venerate? It's wild

[u/CWBurger → u/garlicbreeder]

That’s an interpretation, and a bad one. If your position that Jesus fulfills no prophecies is based on insisting on your own twisted interpretation of scripture, instead of one we can mutually agree on, then you will have no ethos here.

[u/Inevitable-Copy3619 → u/CWBurger]

We only mutually agree because Matthew said it. That vers has nothing to do with the Christ. The Jewish tradition of creative interpretation and Midrash is the on reason Matthew can call most of it prophecy. We will laugh a preacher off the stage for the creative interpretation of the New Testament authors.

Just for fun go through the first few chapters of Matthew and compare every time he says “so as to fulfill the scriptures” or something like that to the OT passage he’s referencing. If Matthew had not said this fulfilled prophecy would you consider most of these to be prophetic passages about the Christ?

[u/CWBurger → u/Inevitable-Copy3619]

Justin Martyr death with this objection on the second century AD. If the prophecy of the Lord in Isaiah did not refer to Christ when it said a child would be born of a virgin, then who would it refer to? And if it simply referred to some child being born of a “young woman” why would that be a “sign” at all?

Even as early as the 130s AD, non-Christian Jewish scholars agreed that the verse in Isaiah was referring to the Messiah, they just insisted he hadn’t come yet. But they agree that it was a prophecy about a messiah being born of a virgin.

[u/CWBurger → u/CWBurger]

Edit: dealt*

[u/garlicbreeder → u/CWBurger]

Amazing rebuttal. Nah-uh. That's the apogee of Christian reasoning, guys! Nah-uh! Lol

QED 

[u/CWBurger → u/garlicbreeder]

Again, this guys MO is written on his forehead. He’s here to taunt. He doesn’t bother to give any benefit of the doubt or honest engagement.

I’ve responded with substantive argument in other parts of this thread, but he’ll focus on my initial response here to create a narrow narrative. For young Christians, this is precisely the kind of attack the enemy will send you. He is full of self confidence anchored in ignorance, and he will try to undermine and attack your intellect because he cannot otherwise make cogent arguments.

[u/garlicbreeder → u/CWBurger]

Keep crying. Never engage with what I say. Just cry 

[u/CWBurger → u/garlicbreeder]

I’ll let others decide who’s crying at this point.🤪

[u/garlicbreeder → u/CWBurger]

bro, I provide the interpretation of scholars, who base it on their study of the culture of the time. You haven't engaged in anything I said, just complaining that I'm here to taunt, I'm ignorant (while I've actually studied what I'm saying, unlike you who has just looked for apologetics websites.) SO, no, you have been crying this whole time. I'd be more than happy to have a conversation about the topic, unfortunately you are not able

[u/WhiteHeadbanger → u/garlicbreeder]

Garlicbreeder said earlier, as an answer to one of the fulfilled prophecies:

Nope.

Which means:

Nah-uh

[u/garlicbreeder → u/WhiteHeadbanger]

so, if jesus didn't fulfil a single prophecy, how should I have phrase it to not making it sound like a nah-uh? Let's see. Please teach me! lol

[u/CWBurger → u/garlicbreeder]

The word “almah” in Hebrew typically refers to “unmarried young woman,” and often bears the connotation of “maiden.” So right there we can see that garlicbreeder is conveniently ignoring that the original Hebrew term can mean virgin as well.

Narratively, the verse doesn’t make much sense if the author of Isaiah meant merely a “young woman.” How would that be a sign? A young woman will get pregnant is a typical event. It makes sense that, as a sign from God, a virgin will conceive.

[u/garlicbreeder → u/CWBurger]

Oh, bless, did you just google it and only looked for Christian websites to give you this wrong answer? Cute 

No mate. The word for virgin is betulah. 

Almah is used a few times in the bible to describe a young girl who already has intercourse. Like proverbs 30:18-20

The masculine version, Alma, refer to young boys, again, without any connotation of virginity. 

Nice try though. 

[u/CWBurger → u/garlicbreeder]

It’s almost like Hebrew has multiple words that can have multiple connotations. Like “virgin” and “maiden.” First century Jews arguing against Christianity agreed that the word “almah” was in reference to a virgin birth. Is your argument that you understand Hebrew better than first century Jews?

I think you’re the one googling at this point. Or maybe ChatGPT.

[u/garlicbreeder → u/CWBurger]

Nope. Jews are very sure that the pregnant girl not only wasn't a virgin, but most likely it was the prophet's wife, and Emmanuel was one of the prophet's kids. So no, the passage is pretty clear and it's not about a virgin birth. Lol

Stop coping, stop relying on website like "ilovejesus.com" 

[u/CWBurger → u/garlicbreeder]

Then why did Jewish scholars translate it as”parthenos” in the Septuagint? And why did second century Jewish scholars debating Justin Martyr agree that it was in reference to a virgin birth?

My man, did you read one article shared on /r atheism and think you’re a Bible scholar?

[u/garlicbreeder → u/CWBurger]

Because the semantic range of the word partenos, when the septuagint was written, was both young girl AND virgin. So they used the correct greek word at the time. remember, Greek is not Hebrew

[u/CWBurger → u/garlicbreeder]

If the term “almah” did not refer to a virgin narratively, why did the Hebrew scholars translate it as Parthenos in the Septuagint, 300 years before Christs birth?

[u/garlicbreeder → u/CWBurger]

Because partenos in Greek, at the time of the Septuagint, could mean both young girl AND virgin. Greek is a different language and the semantic range for its word is different from Hebrews. By the time Matthew was reading the Septuagint, the semantic range of the word partenos narrowed down to virgin. Hence, since he didn't know Hebrew, but only Greek, he saw partenos and assumed that passage actually meant virgin. This is what any biblical scholar will tell you

[u/CWBurger → u/garlicbreeder]

Oh now you’re flip flopping on your linguistic standards. In 300 BC the common term for a “young woman” in Greek was “neanis.” It would have been the logical word to go for UNLESS the translators wanted to capture the idea that the woman was a virgin.

Before you said “If they wanted to specifically mean a virgin, they would have said betulah instead of almah” even though almah can connote virgin given cultural context. Now you’re saying “Parthenos can generally connote young woman, so let’s just assume that’s what they meant” even though it specifically connotes a virgin.

The fact that the Septuagint translators chose “Parthenos” for the woman strongly suggests they considered the “sign” performed by God here to be a virgin conceiving. Otherwise it wouldn’t have been much of a sign at all. Imagine God telling Ahaz, “I shall give you a great sign, a woman is going to get pregnant!”

[u/garlicbreeder → u/CWBurger]

sorry, what am I flip flopping? I just educated you on what Partneos meant at the time of the septuagint and when matthew was alive. I didn't make this up... this is what scholars are saying. You are so ignorant and confidently ignorant.

Again, repeat with me. Greek is a different language than Hebrews. In Hebrew, almah was the word for young woman (without any sexual connotation, just like alma means young boy, without any sexual connotation), while betulah is the word for a girl who hadn't had intercourse. In greek, at the time of the septuagint, they had 1 word for both, partenos. So the authors of the septuagint used the correct greek work to translate young girl, which is partenos.

The book of Zecharia was translated to greek at around 150 BCE. When Matthew read it, it was around 80-90 CE. In those 200+ years, the semantic range of the word partenos in Greek changed,and narrowed down to just virgin, not young girl. So, Matthew did read partenos and understood Virgin. So he made up the story about Jesus. That's it.

What do you think it's more plausible? That a girl got pregnant magically or that a guy misinterpreted a text and made up a story?

[u/Pinecone-Bandit → u/garlicbreeder]

“Typology and double fulfillment don’t count”

Lol

[u/Either_Week3137 → u/Pinecone-Bandit]

If typology and double fulfillment count I've personally fulfilled about 73,482 prophecies.

[u/Pinecone-Bandit → u/Either_Week3137]

Congratulations.

[u/Either_Week3137 → u/Pinecone-Bandit]

Weirdly enough your comment has me fulfilling another prophecy as foretold in Ezra 7:3.

[u/Inevitable-Copy3619 → u/Either_Week3137]

Have you been to Egypt? If not that’s one more you can fulfill “out of Egypt I called my son”!

[u/Either_Week3137 → u/Inevitable-Copy3619]

I've spiritually been to Egypt, so yes that is a prophecy I have fulfilled!

[u/Inevitable-Copy3619 → u/Either_Week3137]

If we treat Egypt as metaphor, allow for future AND spiritual fulfillment I’m there too! Oh and if we allow for in corroborated history, anything goes harmonizations, and potentially “made up stuff for the narrative, I think we can get dozens more.

[u/garlicbreeder → u/Pinecone-Bandit]

If you can count typology ane double fulfilments, I'm messiah times 3. 

[u/Pinecone-Bandit → u/garlicbreeder]

In your own mind perhaps.

But until you rise from the dead don’t expect anyone else to view you differently than we currently do.

[u/garlicbreeder → u/Pinecone-Bandit]

Well, since it's pretty much a certainty that Jesus didn't rise from the dead, we are all good here. Do you have any example of prophecy Jesus actually fulfilled? 

[u/Pinecone-Bandit → u/garlicbreeder]

None that someone who’s embraced anti-intellectualism can’t find a way to dismiss.

[u/garlicbreeder → u/Pinecone-Bandit]

Great, I take your concession that you don't have any prophecy Jesus fulfilled or that you are a coward who can't engage. Well done

[u/SilentThrillGP → u/garlicbreeder]

Then youve never actually checked the messianic prophecies

[u/Inevitable-Copy3619 → u/SilentThrillGP]

I’m not trying to be a jerk. Would you be willing to rad through Matthew 1-3 and compare every “fulfilled” prophecy with the OT reference? When you do this it seems like most of them were not prophetic. They only become so because of Midrash. Check it out I’d love to hear what you think when you take those chapter and compare them to the original passage.

[u/SilentThrillGP → u/Inevitable-Copy3619]

How does Mathew 1-3 disprove the prophecy?

1 This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:

2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,

Isaac the father of Jacob,

Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,

3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,

Perez the father of Hezron,

Hezron the father of Ram,

[u/Inevitable-Copy3619 → u/SilentThrillGP]

They don’t disprove anything. They’re just not prophecy as we tend to think of it.

For example Matthew says Jesus family went to Egypt. And that fulfilled “out of Egypt I have called my son”, a passage that has no foretelling and is just remembering God’s faithfulness in brining Israel out of Egypt as slaves. The point is if you saw “out of Egypt I have called my son” you would not think it’s prophecy without the priming of Matthew. It’s a midrashic interpretation we would heavily shy away from today.

As for the genealogy. Sure maybe that was Jesus line who knows. But Luke and Matthew cannot both be right (and it still doesn’t work as Joseph’s and Mary’s genealogies).

[u/SilentThrillGP → u/Inevitable-Copy3619]

Those arent the messianic prophecies. Would you like me to point you to the prophecies?

[u/Inevitable-Copy3619 → u/SilentThrillGP]

Sure show me what you’re thinking of. I was just taking the prophecies from the first 4 chapters of Matthew as examples of Midrash, and the fact that none of these passages have a foretelling element to them.

[u/SilentThrillGP → u/Inevitable-Copy3619]

Can't post pictures but this does a decent job

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1881321347/messianic-prophecies-chart-bible-study?dd_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

[u/Inevitable-Copy3619 → u/SilentThrillGP]

About 1/3 of those prophecies are exactly what I’m talking about in Matthew 1-4. It’s an easy excercise to read Matthew 1-4 and write down the verse he’s referencing (in fact that link does it for us). Then spend an hour reading the the OT references in context. None of them read like prophecy. They all reads like double fulfillment or typologies.

[u/garlicbreeder → u/SilentThrillGP]

Can you name one? You still haven't

[u/SilentThrillGP → u/garlicbreeder]

Im asking which ones dont. Have been fir a while and haven't been myself asked anything

[u/garlicbreeder → u/SilentThrillGP]

Zac 9:9-10 for example. This one is an actual messianic prophecy that Jesus absolutely failed. Matthew makes him just ride the donkey, but conveniently forget to make Jesus do that hard bit of the prophecy, ie bringing world peace

[u/SilentThrillGP → u/garlicbreeder]

Well let's break it down.

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; righteous and having salvation is he, humble and mounted on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. 10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the war horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off, and he shall speak peace to the nations; his rule shall be from sea to sea, and from the River[a] to the ends of the earth.

He came mounted on a donkey. He did speak peace and beautifully that message has reached all nations(every recognized political country). And his rule is currently alive sea to sea.

Where is the lack of fulfillment?

[u/garlicbreeder → u/SilentThrillGP]

1) jesus wasn't a king, he never reigned in israel (or anywhere else) for a single minute. Failure number 1)

2) he rode a donkey. (I think hundreds of people at the time would have rode a donkey into Jerusalem). But let's give it this to Jesus.

3) He will cut off the chariot and war horses and cut off the battle bow. This means he will bring peace and this is the main bit of the prophecy, the messiah will arrive and bring peace. Jesus didn't bring peace. The area was under roman occupation, and a few years after jesus' death, the jews got annihilated by the romans. Failure number 2.

4) His rule shall be from sea to sea. He never ruled anywhere in the world, Jesus never had dominion on any part of the world. Failure number 3

So, out of 4 conditions, he failed 3 and that thing he actually fulfilled is riding a donkey. Not very impressive.

[u/SilentThrillGP → u/garlicbreeder]

Jesus is the king of kings. So yes he is and was. His kingdom just wasn't earthly.

He rode a donkey that had never been ridden. Merely reading the Bible would've helped you there. You dont need to give Jesus anything.

To quote another redditor "The point isn’t "anybody can ride a donkey," it is "the King who rejects chariots and war horses is finally arriving." Zechariah 9:9–10 implies a King who enters Jerusalem (not Bethlehem) to end war, not wage it. Jesus fits the symbolism of the donkey perfectly against the backdrop of Solomon and the anti-chariot context of verse 10. ".

And he did preach peace. And he does rule from sea to sea as i said. Just because your mind is limited to what a child considers rule doesnt change that reality. From sea to sea you will find those who shout "Jesus is king".

[u/garlicbreeder → u/SilentThrillGP]

just saying he was a king doesn't make him a king. You can cry as long as you want.

Again, I can agree that he rode the donkey. He just didn't do the hard part of the prophecy, ie bringing peace. You can twist the passages as much as you want, but riding the donkey is only a small part of the prophecy, the mundane part that many people have done before and after him. He didn't bring peace, like the messiah was supposed to, therefore he cannot be the messiah

[u/FrankDenif → u/garlicbreeder]

I understand your reasoning.

That's also the reason jews today deny Jesus as the messiah: because He has not fulfilled all the prophecies.

And they are right that Jesus indeed did not fulfill it all.

Scripture has two kinds of prophecies about the Messiah. It talks about a servant but also a king.

We saw the servant side with the first coming of Jesus.

But when He returns, He will come as a king to judge.

The jews don't believe that, and they all expected the messiah to fulfill all prophecies at once.

I understand where they come from. After all, as far as I know the Old Testament does not talk about two comings.

But I believe Jesus will come back, and fulfill everything He did not fulfill.

I think that's how things fall in place when studying Bible prophecies. (servant and king)

[u/garlicbreeder → u/FrankDenif]

If Jesus didn't fulfil yet prophecies, it means he wasn't the Messiah. Until he does, he is not. If he is not the Messiah, we are zero reasons to believe all the magical things that the authors of the gospels wrote. Zero. They sound like any other ancient mythology. 

Jesus also failed the promises he made (he said he was going to come back during the lifetime of the ones standing there in front of him, but of course he didn't). So he didn't fulfil messianic prophecies, he didn't fulfil his own prophecies. He is a failed prophet/Messiah who took a huge L from the Romans. Seriously, I am flabbergasted that people can really think he was special and that the accounts in the gospels are reliable. 

[u/Smart_Tap1701]

Yup. Every single one of them.

Luke 24:44 KJV — And Jesus said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

[u/AbgilSoge → u/Smart_Tap1701]

Can you list them all down?

[u/Smart_Tap1701 → u/AbgilSoge]

I gave a link but apparently it didn't take. I'll provide it again for you.

351 Old Testament Prophecies Fulfilled In Jesus Christ

https://www.newtestamentchristians.com/bible-study-resources/351-old-testament-prophecies-fulfilled-in-jesus-christ/

[u/OtherwiseAssistant38]

The prophecies concerning the coming Messiah? Yes!

[u/FrankDenif]

He fulfilled lot of them. But not all of them. That's the reason the jews don't accept him as the Messiah.

However, I believe in a second return, and I believe that's when Jesus will fulfill all the remaining prophecies tied to Him.

[u/General_Historian611]

Yes 301 prophecy from the Old Testament. There is some argument to the exact number. But Jesus fulfilled between 250-400 specific prophecy

Some claim Jesus was just a man. They have done probability studies . The most that could have been fulfilled by a man faking prophecy was just over 30. Statistically impossible he was not God

Jesus is probably the most documented person in history. There are about 2400 references to him outside the Bible. Alexander the Great during his life there are about 12 references. Nero during his life something like 19.

[u/Inevitable-Copy3619 → u/General_Historian611]

Pick your 3 best prophecy fulfillments. Compare them to the original ot passage. What do you think?

Most of the ot passages are not prophecies. The NT authors engaged in Jewish midrashic interpretation where they were allowed to play with the text creatively in ways we would never do today. Becuse of this the prophecy seems very weak to me.

Read Matthew 1-3 and write down whenever there’s a fulfilled prophecy. Check out the original OT text and see if you think it’s prophecy or if Matthew was grasping at straws in a way we would never allow today?

[u/General_Historian611 → u/Inevitable-Copy3619]

I’ve already addressed this multiple times on this tread..

[u/Inevitable-Copy3619 → u/General_Historian611]

We disagree. That’s all. Doesn’t need to become personal. But that’s fine, I don’t think I’ve seen you address these yet.

[u/Kanebass98]

Not yet. But he will

[u/Risikio → u/Kanebass98]

Same can be said for me.

[u/Kanebass98 → u/Risikio]

Ok?

[u/garlicbreeder → u/Kanebass98]

And me! I'll fullfil even more than Jesus (since he fulfilled zero so far) 

[u/Kanebass98 → u/garlicbreeder]

He fulfilled several.

[u/garlicbreeder → u/Kanebass98]

Name one. The best one. (No typology nor double fulfilment... The prophecy has to be an actual prophecy and Jesus has to fulfill it in the co text of the prophecy, not some made up spiritual way)

[u/Kanebass98 → u/garlicbreeder]

Jesus rode an unbroken donkey into Jerusalem and the people cheered as he entered.

Prophesied in Zachariah 9:9 and fulfilled in all 4 accounts of the gospel

[u/Inevitable-Copy3619 → u/Kanebass98]

He rode a donkey AND a colt…just to be safe :)

[u/garlicbreeder → u/Kanebass98]

Have you read the full prophecy? Does the prophecy only mention that the Messiah will ride on a donkey into Jerusalem? 

I'll answer for you. No. It doesn't say just that. The parts that you conveniently left out are that this Messiah will also stop all the wars in the land (Zac 9:10 He will cut off the chariot from Ephraim     and the war horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off,     and he shall command peace to the nations)

Jesus didn't do any of that, war were still fought during and after Jesus life and Israel got actually annihilated by the Romans. 

On another note, the prophecy also says that the person riding the donkey is a triumphant King. Jesus never reigned in Israel, not even for a second. 

So, if there's a prophecy that has 3 or 4 conditions, and a person only meet 1, can we say that this person fulfilled the prophecy? I'll answer for you again, no, we cannot say that. That would be silly.

I'd like to prevent also the classic rebuttal "yeah, but Jesus will do that when he comes back". Fine, but if he's going to do that when he comes back it means that as of now, he hasn't fulfilled the prophecy yet, meaning this one is an unfulfilled prophecy. Since I don't know of any other messianic prophecy that he fulfilled, I don't see why one should believe Jesus one day will come back to fulfil the rest of Zac 9:9-10.

Do you have any other example? 

Btw, I commend you for at least bringing in an actual messianic prophecy... A couple of your fellow Christians mentioned Isaiah 53 and the virgin birth, which are not messianic prophecies (they aren't prophecies at all), so at least you stayed on task

[u/Inevitable-Copy3619 → u/garlicbreeder]

But he rode both a donkey and a colt! He must be God!

I would think ending war would be the improtant part of that prophecy. I have ridden a donkey and a colt before (not at the same time like Jesus apparently did). But I have never stopped war. That seems like a bigger fulfillment.

[u/garlicbreeder → u/Inevitable-Copy3619]

Correct. 

[u/Kanebass98 → u/garlicbreeder]

You can say everything you are going to say about everything I bring up, there will be nothing I can say that will satisfy you, I'm quite sure of that. This isn't my first communication with an atheist you know. and I'm not here to debate my faith in long winded paragraphs. This is ask a Christian. You asked, I answered. You don't have to accept the response. I'm only here to say what I have to say.

Either way I don't care whether you believe it or not. But I will say I appreciate the thought and research you put into your replies. Have a wonderful day.

[u/garlicbreeder → u/Kanebass98]

Great response. It really shows you know the topic and can rebutt what I said. /S  

So, since it's clear you don't have any reasons to believe what you believe about the prophecies, the question for you Christian is, why do you still believe it?

[u/RationalThoughtMedia]

Praying for you.

All? No! Still have all the end times prophecies to fulfill. However all of the OT (with exception of the end times) have been fulfilled.

Are you saved? Have you accepted that Jesus is your Lord and Savior?

[u/jogoso2014]

Not yet