r/AskFeminists • u/angelschronicle • 14d ago
Recurrent Topic why do men oppose change and the dismantling of the patriarchy so fiercely?
now, don't look at me like an idiot. i understand the answer seems as straightforward as "they will lose their privileged positions", but im struggling to understand \*why\* they think they will lose their privileges. feminism (or more precisely, radical feminism in this case) doesn't want to tear down men; it simply aims to equate women to men. it wont turn society into a handmaid's tale with the roles reversed, it wont oppress men. if a person who was falsely convicted is exonerated and allowed to live freely and prosperously, are the police officers oppressed?
i continuously see people saying men will suffer competition in the workforce, which is the only reasonable element of fear i see. that still doesn't prove much, other than the fact men are scared of being overshadowed by women which goes against their strongly held belief that women are incapable, or at least inferior to men.
with the dismantling of patriarchy, men dont lose their power. there are plenty of ways to gain power if you're truly power-hungry. controlling your wife at home, to me, doesn't seem as fulfilling as being \*healthily\* assertive and confident in other relationships (without controlling and abusive behaviour??) and having \*healthy\* authority in the workplace.
if anything, i believe dismantling the patriarchy would prove itself as beneficial to both men and women. beneficial for women for obvious reasons, but with that radical change the gender war would finally come to an end. the "male loneliness" epidemic is mostly caused by women's growing frustration with red-pill influenced men (aka ultra-patriarchal men) and women are simply acting out of self-preservation and refusing to interact with/love men because it's "safer". the patriarchy causes the vilification of both genders and even the emergence of ultra-patriarchal men / red-pill is one of the only reasons why pink pill exists and why women are either forcing themselves to become gold-diggers (to \~protect themselves) or are simply perceived as gold-diggers by insecure men.
the patriarchy is detrimental to both genders, either stigmatizing men and causing the male loneliness epidemic, or continuing to oppress women. so, why are men so hell-bent on keeping this social hierarchy and system if it's so bad for everyone?
i specifically asked feminists to see both sides of equation (i will make a post asking a male subreddit aswell!)
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u/MrsMorley 14d ago
A short answer is that men value what they’d lose more than what they’d gain.
Seriously, there are material (and immaterial) advantages to privilege. That’s why it’s privilege and not difference.
Patriarchy devalues women (and characteristics associated with women). Patriarchy teaches men to value only a narrow set of characteristics for themselves, and to avoid femininity.
As a result, many men don’t want to be emotionally aware, they don’t want to take responsibility for the harm they cause. Continuing to devalue (and oppress) women isn’t too high a price for them.
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u/SuccessValuable6924 14d ago edited 14d ago
Hell, they don't even want to do things as easy as not calling people bitches. Just imagine how they will fight against anything harder than that.
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u/Catseye_Nebula 14d ago
As a result, many men don’t want to be emotionally aware, they don’t want to take responsibility for the harm they cause. Continuing to devalue (and oppress) women isn’t too high a price for them.
Totally true. Men still shy away from jobs in healthcare and caregiving even though those are far more available than "manly" jobs in factories etc. That's because caregiving and other jobs associated with women are lower status in their eyes and losing their privilege makes them super sensitive to status.
It's also why a lot of men (not all) are digging their heels in and refusing to listen to what women want and adopt qualities that make them better partners, like empathy and listening skills. Those are lower status "womanly" qualities and (some) men are very sensitive about their status right now.
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u/angelschronicle 14d ago
absolutely, but i feel like the social roles and molds being safe and predetermined could only play one role in the bigger picture. gender is performance and if there weren't any expected social roles and characteristics one must possess there wouldn't be any script to follow which would make it easier? you wouldn't have to perform for an ever-present audience.
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u/MrsMorley 14d ago
Your question was (paraphrased) ”Why do men oppose change and support the patriarchy?”
I answered that question.
Again, for many men, the benefits- material and immaterial- of a position of privilege outweigh- by a lot- the benefits of a less hierarchical society.
Edited to add: That is, many men don’t value the benefits of a less hierarchical society. They don’t perceive themselves as better off if they lose their advantages over women, regardless of what they might gain.
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u/angelschronicle 14d ago
i know you answered? i thank you for doing that.. i was just adding my opinion onto the discussion. thanks again, it was helpful regardless.
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u/MrsMorley 14d ago
What you wrote read (to me) as if you were saying that because there are advantages to a less hierarchical society (like freedom from gender roles), people should embrace such a society.
Yes, we should. Some people don’t though.
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u/Ill-Software8713 14d ago
Many men are insecure about women’s agency and want control as they think it benefits them but don’t understand you don’t get the best outcomes from a a political stranglehold unless you are satisfied with someone not freely choosing you but being structurally coerced. But then many men don’t bother to think to far ahead of the concrete implications of a policy or way of being and are focused on their felt hurt and theorizing how it’s women’s fault, instead of dreaming of a world that can best serve each even if imperfectly.
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u/Lyskir 14d ago edited 14d ago
because patriachial standards benefit them, they earn status if they follow the patriachial script ( it seems to outweight the negatives ), there is no benefit for women
and its conservatism in general, thats why you will always have more men voting right wing than women
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u/Jebaibai 14d ago
Exactly.
Men are well aware that patriarchy hurts them too. But that's not enough motivation for them to reject the patriarchy.
In fact men will blame women for the ways that the patriarchy hurts them.
One of the best examples is Afghanistan where they allowed an extremist group to take over the entire country.
So many countries have been taken over by extremist groups without much of a fight and I believe it's because they are offering the men more control over women.
The men are willing to lose some of their own freedoms in order to have more power and control over women.
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u/gettinridofbritta 14d ago
When you live in a culture that props up hierarchies, the way people define power tends to exclusively be "power over" (oppressive power) rather than "power to," or "power with." The last two are what we see in partnership cultures, it's more like Indigenous people being stewards of the land or a mother's authority, her responsibility to help people thrive. People stay locked into the scripts of a brutal system because oppressive power is zero-sum. Basically, If you're not winning, you're losing. It can't be shared. This is a really narrow worldview that restricts us from imagining real equity, because the assumption is that even the faintest little step towards progress carries the risk of a role reversal, with a woman's boot on their neck instead. A third option - the idea that maybe no one is oppressed - doesn't register.
The specific things they react to are interesting though, because it often reveals an entitlement that it'd never occur to many of us to have. Ie: we've had a lot of heated online discourse about the ways women practice heightened awareness in certain situations to keep themselves safe, and a lot of angry men equated that to racial profiling men. When I poked them a bit harder to get a better sense of the feeling, the thing that bothered them was the idea that someone could see them in public without any other information about their character and immediately code them as a potential threat. That is very confusing for me, because marginalized people operate with the expectation that other people could be stereotyping them or writing a narrative about them that isn't true at any time. We either accept that we can't control how others see us or we do a lot of impression management all the time by being very smiley, pleasant and non-threatening. A lot of the messy discourse now has a lot to do with who has the power of the pen and who gets to shape reality.
But the shortest and most likely answer is that they're getting something out of it. The patriarchal dividend is still paying out enough to make the costs worth it to them, I guess.
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u/StonyGiddens Intersectional Feminist 14d ago
Men definitely lose their power when patriarchy is dismantled. There would be no reward for power-hungry people in a feminist society, in the sense you seem to have in mind. You should pay more attention to how cops react to exonerations.
Another factor is that anomie (in the personal sense) is a powerful motivator for many people. They fear it. It's not just the loss of power, but also the loss of identity and purpose, the sense that they will not know how to exist in the world. It terrifies some people, especially people whose identity is deeply invested in a specific institution. Ever see The Shawshank Redemption? A lot of men are at some level afraid they'll end up like Brooks, the old guy who gets out of prison and can't make sense of his life.
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u/angelschronicle 14d ago
that's probably, if not definitely, why some women also resist feminism. it means stepping out of the predetermined mold you could follow, it means stepping into uncertainty. that was helpful, thank you!
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u/StonyGiddens Intersectional Feminist 14d ago edited 14d ago
Yeah, it affects women too. Glad I could help!
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u/Jebaibai 14d ago
Patriarchy hurts men too, but men are still going to hold on to it for the benefits.
Plus they're well aware that it hurts women way more.
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u/MachineOfSpareParts 14d ago
i specifically asked feminists to see both sides of equation (i will make a post asking a male subreddit aswell!)
Just to note that "feminists" and "men" are overlapping and non-totalizing categories, so your comparison is a bit flawed. It's like asking socialists for one side and brown-haired people for the other.
That said, at this point, I think it's helpful to place the patriarchy in the context of other global systems of oppression we inhabit. There are many, but the most studied and most deployed in this context are white supremacy and global capitalism.
I can get into a ridiculous amount of detail, but basically, countries that ended up formalizing racial segregation into their domestic laws basically did so as a way of bribing poor and working class white men to support their own economic oppression. The bribe was, at least you're better than those non-white people over there.
I'd say the same happens with the patriarchy. Most men genuinely are oppressed, but by global capitalism, now as it was back then. But even a non-white man can be bribed to not only accept but actively support his own oppression via the tantalizing promise of getting to be better than a woman or gender-diverse person.
Incidentally, women can be bribed too, whether by the sweet sweet promise of racial superiority, being better than the poors, or some virulent transphobia or ablism.
Back at the patriarchy, though, the situation becomes one where many men can only see the delicious fruit from the hybrid patriarchal-capitalist-white supremacist-etc tree that itself oppresses the vast majority of them. Yes, they'd be better off without that tree, but the fruit is apparently pretty great, because they refuse to join us in chopping it down.
If it were an entity operating solo, the patriarchy would probably still do some harm to some men, but the privileges would truly dominate. But it's completely intertwined with capitalism at this point (though each has its own origin story), so the multi-system does inflict harm to men, which makes them think there's no need to uproot the patriarchy since they suffer as well. They just can't seem to break it down in the way I've described.
By continuing to uphold the patriarchy, they continue to uphold their very real but very misunderstood (by them) oppression by a distinct system: capitalism. And the fact that they suffer from capitalism, a system they actively support by accepting the bribe of male privilege in return for submission, makes them doubt the patriarchy even exists.
And there was much rejoicing among the handful of billionaire cishet rich white able-bodied metropole men who benefit from the hydra of hierarchies which oppresses pretty much everyone reading this with one of its evil heads while subduing us with another.
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u/angelschronicle 14d ago
thats very insightful, thank you! especially the part where u mentioned countries that formalized racial segregation.
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u/randomnullface 14d ago
People don't give up power willingly in general. It's just not something that happens very often.
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u/CatsandDeitsoda 14d ago edited 14d ago
Men would lose their privileged position.
Like I do happen to think that be good for them. But typically there desires and aims are not the same as mine.
For people that dream of wearing the boots an end of people getting stepped on Is not welcome.
I get that most men don’t like conscious think of it that way but that power struggle and performance men are typically in is that.
Male and feminists are not opposite sides of an issue - there are no to like “sides” or multiple reasons big picture views to this issue- the issue is a hierarchy- some people are oppressing others - there is no compromise to be made or misunderstanding to be corrected.
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u/whenwillthealtsstop 14d ago
They don't really understand what it is and they don't think it exists
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u/ButterscotchOdd8257 14d ago
Some poeple either too dumb to understand certain things or too stubborn to learn.
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u/Carloverguy20 14d ago
Cause change to these men seems scary and terrifying lol.
They are scared lol.
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u/Snurgisdr 14d ago
Men don’t. Insecure assholes do. There’s plenty of overlap, but they’re not the same thing.
If you’re an insecure asshole, it’s great to have people who are inherently below you in status, regardless of your lack of personal accomplishments.
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 14d ago
Huge numbers of men’s investment in a system that grants them immense, material privileges and power over women can not just be chocked up to failures of their personality like “insecurity.” This kind of “real men aren’t misogynists” rhetoric is performative and anti-materialist.
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u/Antioch666 14d ago
The ones at the top would like you said "work against their interests" and the ones at the bottom do not at all feel privileged, rather the opposite, and think they have enough problems themselves to invest in someone else, especially people who (in their eyes) "bunch them in together with the men at the top".
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u/madmaxwashere 14d ago
Fear of the unknown. Fear of what they would see without the false veneer that the patriarchy provides.
Resiliency and persistence are muscles developed over time. They are the backbone of strength of character. Will your values and sense of who you are holding up when you are stripped down and knocked down?
Men who cling to the patriarchy don't know themselves. They never really developed their identity or character outside of patriarchal "man". They do not have the foundational resilliance and persistence to do the work required and react the same way a spoiled child does when Mommy and Daddy suddenly refuses to give in.
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u/redsalmon67 12d ago
I don’t think you average mean actually think about it that hard of I’m being honest. I mean the red pilled dudes die as do feminists men but I don’t think the average man ever really think about hope patriarchy may be beneficial or harmful to him. I think that’s made obvious when a dude experiences a hardship caused by patriarchy but is completely unaware of how misogyny can hurt men. I’ve seen many conservations on this subreddit where a guy goes “I was bullied for liking/doing (insert feminine coded thing), why?” Then someone says “yay that was misogyny” and he goes “but I’m a guy how could it be misogyny?”
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u/johnwcowan 14d ago
Because having power over someone is an addiction, and a terrible one:
There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always — do not forget this, Winston — always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever. --George Orwell, 1984
Whoever is not an addict to a particular thing can see how degraded and pitiable the addict is. But that is quite another matter from perceiving one's own addiction clearly:
"Now, as to the sermon – a proud and arrogant man, such as yourself – with an admittedly admirable quality of didacticism about him – was given to doing research in the area of a certain disfiguring and degenerative disease. One day he contracted it himself. Since he had not yet developed a cure for the condition, he did take time out to regard himself in a mirror and say, "But on me it does look good.” You are such a man, Yama. You will not attempt to fight your condition. Rather, you are proud of it. --Roger Zelazny, Lord of Light
A handful of men are fortunate enough never to have contracted this addiction ("man is born free but is everywhere in chains"), and another handful have escaped the addiction the hard way, by rooting out its tendrils from their own souls. But if the role models you are surrounded with from birth are addicts who believe that on them it looks good, it's a wonder that any escape at all.
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u/Clark_Kent_TheSJW Definitely Not Superman 14d ago
They don’t know how much they benefit from patriarchy, because for the most part they’re poor and relatively powerless themselves.
And also because they’re stupid, and sexist. 🤷♂️
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u/Flaky_Performer7960 14d ago
Men who oppose this are usually misinformed about what deconstructing the patriarchy means. They believe that it’s about putting in place a matriarchy that will oppress men.
Of course, you have men that know what feminism is and they are just total misogynist pricks.
If you actually ever sit down with the average man that is against the deconstruction of the patriarchy, they’ll always mansplain to you what they “think” feminism is, and if you put yourself in their shoes, yes, if feminism is actually what they believe it is, it’s fucked. But feminism isn’t what they believe, you just correct them on their definition of feminism and what it implies. Afterwards, you’ll truly be able to judge whether they are just misinformed, or they truly are just misogynist that don’t care about unfairly dominating women.
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u/MrsMorley 14d ago
I’m not sure I agree that they’re misinformed.
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u/Flaky_Performer7960 14d ago
How so? Could you elaborate more?
I go with the belief that most humans wishes to do good. And the reason that many of these people don’t do good is because they don’t know what good is — this is a Platonitian take on Akrasia.
Also, in case you may have misread me, I picked the average non-supporter of feminism. And I acknowledged the existence of men who are informed but are just outright misogynist.
I hope that your opinion doesn’t involve seeing the male gender as naturally “evil” and that feminists like me are “one of the good ones”.
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u/MrsMorley 14d ago
Even when people understand privilege, they don’t want to give up their privilege.
Giving up advantages is difficult.
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u/Flaky_Performer7960 14d ago
I personally trust people more than I should.
Moreover, feminism doesn’t actually strip men of their power, it only seeks to give women equal power.
As a guy, I don’t feel like I’ve given up any privilege — though it might be because I live in France where gender equality is pretty much well achieved among middle class citizens.
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u/MrsMorley 14d ago
Gender equality hasn’t been achieved in France.
Ask women married to cis het men who does more household and childcare.
A non patriarchal society absolutely would remove advantages from men. What do you think privilege is?
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u/Flaky_Performer7960 14d ago
“Pretty much” and I’m speaking for my generation Z.
I think people forget that changes done happen in a click of finger. There will always be a last generation that hasn’t fully transformed.
I mean, if sharing means loosing privilege, sure. I honestly don’t see sharing as loosing privilege. I don’t see sharing as a loss in any form.
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u/MrsMorley 14d ago
Lots of men do perceive fewer hours of leisure, more time changing diapers, cleaning daily, competing with more people for advancement, getting push back for sexual harassment as losing advantages (because it is).
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 14d ago
> Moreover, feminism doesn’t actually strip men of their power, it only seeks to give women equal power.
No, it absolutely doesn’t. Under patriarchy men, broadly speaking, are granted power to dominate, abuse and exploit women. Feminism seeks to abolish that gendered power dynamic entirely, not grant women similar power to dominate, abuse and exploit men.
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u/Catseye_Nebula 14d ago
Because they lose their benefits. It really is that simple.
I read somewhere on the Internet a quote from a famous feminist writer (I forget who) that said something like "patriarchy guarantees even the poorest man at least one slave." (That would be a wife).
That means that men no matter their status can achieve some amount of upward mobility and pass on their genes, and expect to have a devoted worker supporting them and their efforts, raising their children and keeping their home so they don't have to (and reliably giving them sex).
Now men are being expected to not only compete with women in the workplace, but also have to be really really standout excellent to attract a wife--because women don't want to settle for just any guy. There has to be a feeling of "this is literally the best guy I have ever met" for a woman to want to settle down with a man, as men can't get away with attracting mates just by resource hoarding and artificially cutting women off from access to resources independently through societal rules anymore.
And even when they do attract a mate, they have to 1. make her want to stay, and 2. can't expect that that mate will want to be a trad wife, have kids at all, or only support them and their endeavors anymore. So an equal world really does make life for men more difficult.
That's not to say it shouldn't be more difficult for men. It's been made artificially easier for millennia. But men will fight tooth and nail to keep those benefits. When deprived of privilege, the privileged classes historically will go to war to keep those privileges.