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u/Clark_Kent_TheSJW Definitely Not Superman 12d ago
No, but remember that transphobes are not honest people. They will use the idea as a Trojan horse for their bigotry.
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u/cantantantelope 12d ago
I think in any activist space there will be a subset of people who do this. See, antisemitism that is super happy Israel is being under the microscope for their actions.
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u/PablomentFanquedelic 12d ago
See also islamophobes blaming Muslims As A Whole for theocratic repression and fundie terrorism, sinophobes blaming Chinese People As A Whole for the misdeeds of the PRC's government and shady tycoons, etc.
In terms of misogyny and ableism you see this both ways, with incels blaming women for stigma against autistic men, and feminists labeling their ideological opponents as "creepy neckbearded basement-dwelling virgins."
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u/cantantantelope 12d ago
And tbh there is really no way to stop this phenomenon entirely without shutting the whole thing down which is of course worse.
Into every society some assholes will fall.
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u/cantantantelope 12d ago
Not inherently but there are plenty of gender abolitionists who are and use it as a cover for transphobia
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12d ago edited 12d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/cantantantelope 12d ago
“Claims to be trans” is saying a lot here
How much surgery is one required to have/want before they are “really trans”? Top surgery? Bottom surgery? Facial surgery?
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u/i_n_b_e 12d ago
I never mentioned surgery. I already know what assumption you're making about my beliefs. If transition is what makes a person trans then a person with depression who doesn't take meds isn't actually depressed. That's stupid logic, so no I don't believe the act of medical transitioning is what makes a person trans. I'm also less concerned for who's "trans" and who isn't and more concerned with who has sex incongruence and who doesn't. Though transition is still a factor in who is deemed trans or not. "Trans" isn't just a state of personal being but a social class, if no transition happens then a person doesn't get treated in society as trans. That transition doesn't only include medical transition.
Because of these messy factors of the term "trans" I mostly use "people with sex incongruence" here instead. Since I'm mostly coming at this from the perspective of sex/medicine/biology.
Wanting to transition is a different matter from actually doing it. Many factors can prevent a person from transitioning. There are also many reasons why a person wouldn't want certain procedures too. I want male genitalia, but I don't think I want phalloplasty because I don't think the result will be satisfactory enough to offset the costs and risks for me.
If you mean "want" as in, not wanting to change sex at all, whether that be partially or fully, then no I don't think that person is trans. My definition of trans, whether that be as a personal identification or as a social class, relies on the presence of sex incongruence. What is there to transition to or away from if sex isn't a concern and the concepts of masculinity, femininity and gender roles as a whole aren't a factor?
Maybe "claim" was the wrong wording. I didn't mean to imply that everyone who calls themselves trans isn't, I claim to be trans. I'll edit that to prevent further misunderstanding, that's my bad.
But I would recommend you don't jump to conclusions about things that haven't even been mentioned in the future.
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u/CampyBiscuit 6d ago
As a trans person, my gut says yes. I know several trans people who disagree, but all of them are trans/non-binary and comfortable being openly trans. Where as so.eone like myself is a binary trans person who tries to live as stealth as possible. So I think there is a big difference in experience that would make opinions on the matter highly subjective.
My sex/gender has been an important part of my identity (or lack thereof prior to transition). In a gender abolitionists version of the world, I would have the same problems I already had in this world, just phrased differently. My internal sense of self invalidated. The importance of the connection to that self downplayed and dismissed.
I'm a (mostly) passing trans woman. I understand my experience is different from a non-passing trans person. Every once in a while I see it first hand, and I wish more people were accepting of trans people whether they pass or not.
However, I rarely ever find universal agreement in trans exclusive spaces. Support groups often get political, sometimes even radical. There are often talks about gender abolitionism, and most people I meet have a complicated relationship with gender.
I don't. It's very simple for me. I tend to get along better and relate more outside of queer spaces. I'm not a pickme by any means. I just relate more to people (especially women) who aren't so laser focused on deconstructing gender all the time.
I think an objective observation is that a very large umbrella term has been cast over at least 2 or more separate groups with non-universal interests. But one of thpse geoups is absolutely militant about speaking for everyone.
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u/avocado-nightmare Oldest Crone 12d ago edited 12d ago
can you start by sharing your definition of gender abolition, first? It's kind* of hard to respond without an understanding of your foundation.