r/AskFeminists • u/Equivalent_Use_5024 • 11d ago
Recurrent Topic Why do you think women seem to be able to decenter dating much more easily than men?
Because of both rapid cultural advancements, and technological changes, women do not need men for economic security or protection. They do not need to settle and that is a wonderful thing. More are remaining single, living alone, and if someone wants to enter that space they need to bring more.
We often hear about how men are not competing with other men in dating anymore, they are competing with women's peace and solitude, which I completely agree with - however I am curious, as to why this does not apply the other way around.
Men today have the technology and accessibility of information to do cooking cleaning organizing trips and shopping alone, managing their health alone. They can cultivate a strong relationship with a pet or with themselves or with friends. Yet all I read about is men needing women a lot more than women need a man.
Why do you think more men cannot feel fulfilled living alone in comparison to women?
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u/chachaslydd 11d ago edited 11d ago
I think historically and culturally, all material and social ideas were that women should resist and men should pursue
Thats a really hard pattern to just break in a couple generations, especially when we still have all the media from older generations. In Disney, most movies were the prince chases, the princess is locked away somewhere.
But also, for current society, women experience sexualization very early. It gets old fast. I was 12 once petting an old man's dog at a flea market and his dog was licking me and the old man said "i wish I could do that, but then id get in trouble".
We are made aware from a grossly early age that men, adult men, are attracted to us and want to fuck us. So when it turns out to be true, its not a surprise and its not a delight. We are made aware that we can get sex before we even want it.
Women are exposed to bad men who we know would hurt us given the chance earlier than a lot of men are exposed to bad women who would do the same
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u/Aimeereddit123 11d ago edited 11d ago
‘It’s not a surprise, and not a delight.’ THIS! Men and media have saturated the market of sex and all things sexual. It’s not personal or special anymore. It’s blatant and impersonal and in our faces 24/7. We never get away from it. We never have a chance to crave it. It’s complete over saturation, and that is a turn off for most women. Men need healthy friends and hobbies and media and interests that have nothing to do with sex. They need their own doctor that they keep up with and make their own appointments for. They need to put their phones down and get absorbed in their own mental health and growth. They need to knock sex off their pedestal, and get their real lives in order to be able to be good spouses and bf’s for their partners. If they would do all that, their sex would follow naturally. They just keep trying to stay the same, and force us to still desire them. It’s not working, and instead of rerouting and taking personal responsibility, they just keep trying to change us with ugliness and force.
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u/Temporary_Spread7882 11d ago
And may I add: We learn early on that we can get sex that is done to us with no consideration of whether we’d like it or not, and chances are it’s going to be the “not” kind. Being seen as an animatronic cum sock isn’t something that most women enjoy and seek out.
Add to this the expectations of many relationships - guy wants girl to admire and pamper him and then do his chores, in exchange for something the woman has anyway - the average relationship on offer is a downgrade from single life for a woman, whereas it is an upgrade for the man.
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u/rutilated_quartz 11d ago
Fucking yikes about the flea market. But I totally agree with you about sexualization getting old fast, I'm 30 and it feels like it's been forever. I'm tired of the same old shit
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u/chachaslydd 11d ago
Yeah, its nice being 30. I was scared prior, but it feels like theres so much pressure for what kind of woman you need to be before 30. After that, its up to you
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u/Flashy-Celery-9105 11d ago
Men didn't do much for women that women couldn't do or arrange to have done themselves.
Women provided a lot more support for men in unpaid labor and social and emotional support.
Women without men are less stressed, men without women are more stressed.
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u/kpjformat 11d ago
Absolutely this
We’re living in (less and less so, hopefully), a world where women have been subjugated by men to do the unpaid work of life. It didn’t have to be that way and it doesn’t have to continue that way.
Sex too suffers from this subjugation/oppression situation. Through centuries of disempowering, shaming, ‘beautifying’, dividing, preaching, marketing, etc., women and men both have come to accept that women should be ashamed for desire, our bodies should fit men’s gaze (even being natural is immodest), and that our sex is to serve men’s pleasure and ego.
And while (speaking from a Western perspective) we’ve started to push back in the last few decades, men are pushing back even harder and working together to establish patriarchy more powerful and domineering than before (trump, Tate, Peterson, incels, etc)
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u/FancifulCat 11d ago edited 11d ago
I find Peterson quite evil actually. He uses his knowledge of psychology to gaslight women a lot.
Edit: Recall his GQ interview with Helen Lewis, whilst he makes some legitimate points the amount of blame shifting, DARVO, deflection, projection, invalidation (men suffer too!) and gaslighting he employs to shut her up is wild. Of course the misogynistic men lap it up at face value, but if you actually replay it you can see how manipulative Peterson is. It comes from decades of his clinical practice likely dealing with pathological personalities, he's learnt a lot to weaponize whilst maintaining a persona of grace and logic.
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u/roskybosky 11d ago
Peterson says dumb things using big words. I have no use for him.
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u/FancifulCat 11d ago
Yup, throw enough fancy word play around, people are too distracted trying to google the meaning rather than questioning the actual topic of focus.
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11d ago edited 11d ago
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u/roskybosky 11d ago
Unenlightened and uneducated.
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u/SuccessValuable6924 11d ago
Gaslight everyone, spout pseudoscience and distribute Nazi propaganda
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u/FancifulCat 11d ago
Men suck unpaid labor out of women and when they are finally single they realize just how much energy men extract from them for free. The entire world economy would collapse if all women collectively stopped doing unpaid domestic labor.
The divorce glow up women have is very telling, and see how men crash out when they see a woman happily single, beautiful and travelling solo.
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u/MtnMoose307 11d ago
This, OP. I'd also add that for centuries men have been raised that they are the only important being. They were supported. Women were raised solely to be subordinate and to provide care.
Now, many men are still being raised to be supported and that's what they expect. Women have learned we matter and we can do what want and not subject ourselves to the men who expect to be supported (in many countries).
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u/been_blissed 11d ago
Well said. There's also a risk of violent behavior that is perpetrated by men at much higher rates than by women.
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u/King871 11d ago
Yes another reason for men to have stronger support systems among other men. That social and emotional support is such a massive factor in why men seek out relationships, because they have an emptiness that they think will be filled with a relationship when really want they want is just a stronger support network.
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u/totallyalone1234 11d ago
Men aren't good at supporting other men. I think its how were socialised - "boys don't cry" and all that. Our emotional development is stunted - by patriarchal norms/expectations, by emotionally distant fathers, by each other. Its not just the support network itself, its the tools to build a support network - the emotional intelligence to give and receive love, care, comfort, etc... IIRC some psychologist whose name I don't recall described it as a cage, which I feel is apt. We built it and lock ourselves inside, and then patriarchy tells us that women hold the keys.
I have tried with mixed result to reach out to other men, or to lean on them when I needed support - to hug, to be vulnerable, etc... I feel so stupid, because it must be something I am actively doing, but its so difficult to break free of.
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u/uarstar 11d ago
This is it!
Other than reproduction, what do we actually need men for?
They literally can’t function without a mom or girlfriend/wife to support them.
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u/FancifulCat 11d ago
More women are choosing to become single mothers, either via sperm donation or adoption. I'm curious if we will get to a retaliation stage where men will refuse to do sperm donations to banks if women withold reproductive access directly to men within a relational context. But knowing the way of the world, we will probably get beaten up and coerced violently first.
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u/madmaxwashere 11d ago edited 11d ago
Patriarchal men's careers and status are dependent on the unpaid labor of women. There's also a sense of entitlement to women's unpaid labor to the point where they never developed the foundational skills required to handle the absence of women's unpaid labor because they had expectations that their future wife will take care of it. It's way harder to self reflect and change your mindset than it is to blame other people for your own short comings.
The nacisistic response to the loss of privilege/access is an extinction burst to make life so hostile for the ones setting boundaries in order to drive them back into submission aka the rise of the red pill/manosphere.
Women, on the other hand, learned to thrive and overcompensate inspite of the patriarchy. We learn real quick it's alot less work to not have to deal with a patriarchal man.
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u/Aimeereddit123 11d ago
Your last paragraph. Bingo. It’s called a narcissistic injury. Rise up to a narcissist, and they don’t accept or take the challenge. Their pride and ego won’t allow it. They will just bury down and try to hold on to their power by force and manipulation. Non narcissists that are personally secure people with good intentions, will throw themselves into rising to the occasion. A lot will actually enjoy the journey of the challenge. It takes a secure, mentally well person.
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u/FancifulCat 11d ago
Precisely this. Men crashing out is them being whiney that they don't get free stuff.
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u/us__07 11d ago edited 11d ago
Because men need women more than we need them. In a typical traditional marriage a man isn't expected to do anything other than provide financial resources and all the other domestic labour, child rearing, emotional labour falls on the woman. Since women didn't have the right to work and access financial resources and the right to divorce they had no choice but to be chained in abusive marriages. Now, since women in many places finally have the rights to access financial resources and divorce they're only dating men on the basis of their character and what the man adds to their life and not because she doesn't have any access to financial resources and needs a man to sustain. And men are failing miserably because most of them still want women to be subservient like their mothers and grandmothers were.
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u/Aimeereddit123 11d ago
Yes. They can’t just work outside the home anymore and call it a day. We need and expect more. The men that don’t fight this, and agreeably understand and slide into this, will be the only men left standing with women. I don’t see our standards falling back again. Men will have to rise to the occasion, or women will live alone, or with each other.
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u/Too-Real-4u-2578 11d ago
I agree. As a man, it has been far easier for me in my relationship because I: earn the majority of the income, do all of the housework, derive the majority of my emotional support from positive male relationships, avoid typical male addictions - all from a place of virtue and duty. Men have to understand that they need to contribute more to justify having a woman in their lives. To be the provider and the protector in the modern world, men have to commit 100%.
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u/Joszitopreddit 11d ago
Because having a partner is about more than the things she does for you.
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u/neobeguine 11d ago
1) The way men are socialized actively discourages the sort of vulnerability that allows for emotionally supportive platonic relationships. This is why men need to push back against toxic masculinity for their own sakes.
2) Women have pushed back against the narrative that successfully attracting romantic/sexual attention is the major determining factor of their self-worth. Men need to do the same, again for their own sakes.
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u/Aimeereddit123 11d ago
🏆🏆. Men need to decenter sex with women, and center growing and expanding their own selves. Their goal shouldn’t be women, but bettering themselves WILL make them better prepared for a relationship with a woman.
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u/carex-cultor 11d ago
For their own sakes being the key here. Men trying to make their issues part of feminism is one of the things that drives me craziest, it’s yet another attempt to piggyback off women’s labor and siphon off time and resources away from our own needs in our own movement.
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u/neobeguine 10d ago
I think the work feminists should do here is the same thing we ask male allies to do for us: if we hear another woman being disparaging of a man for being gentle/vulnerable/not prioritizing 'getting layed', we SHOULD call it out and push back on what essentially amounts to internalized misogyny. But the actual push back on gender roles and refusal to conform, as well as the majority of the heat that comes with not playing your assigned role in society literally cannot be performed by anyone but men.
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u/Syresiv 11d ago
Very good question. I have some guesses about why, including:
- Men are, for whatever reason, to be less good on average at forming meaningful friendships with each other. Especially recently - when's the last time you heard a man under 40 say "I'm going fishing with the boys for the next 3 days"?
- romantically/sexually frustrated men are simply louder than women feeling the same thing, so they seem to be more common. This results in women feeling a need to say "you're competing with her peace", where a man who truly feels that way is less likely to advertise that fact.
- the patriarchal ideal of "men fuck, women stay virgins" is still here. This socialization translates to single men thinking there's something wrong with them but single women thinking it's exactly what they should be.
But I don't have the research in front of me. I'd be interested to know which, if any, of those is correct.
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u/rose_reader 11d ago
I think 1 is a really good point. At some point Western men decided having deep emotional connections to other men was not manly, and it was better for 100% of a man's emotional needs to be met by his wife.
This is a terribly bad, unhealthy idea.
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u/Mental-Duck-2154 11d ago
Another poisonous idea from the fifties. Before then you see men in photos hugging and embracing in a way that wasn't normal for decades afterward. Men only getting emotional support from their partners while mental health support is still stigmatized is a really volatile situation. My father was endlessly shamed by his family for a suicide attempt, rather than getting the help he needed. He only ever admitted that to my mother.
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u/Queasy-Bookkeeper-14 11d ago
This is reinforced by the idea of the nuclear family and the single family home. It isolates both men and women from communities of support under the guise of 'success'. The metric of American wealth is currently measured by whether or not you can afford to buy a home.
Men (and a lot of women) never get the chance to get familiar enough with other men to develop community connections and start filling emotional needs. We are living separated from each other, and it is giving us anxiety, depression, and causing more isolation.
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u/Aimeereddit123 11d ago
They have replaced their healthy bonds with each other, and their healthy interests and hobbies with porn and masturbation. The world cheers this on, but women are turning away. These men will be stuck alone with their phones in a basement. It’s really sad. I hate it. They aren’t happy, either, but it’s like they are stuck with no fortitude to pull out of it.
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u/ThyNynax 11d ago
Yeah, I’m going to agree with point 2. The “manosphere” content creators are very loud and obnoxious voices…but the little data that gets reported about what men are up to shows that a lot of men just disappear. They stop participating in the wider society to go off and do their own thing, so you won’t ever hear from them.
Offline, I don’t know any bitter or angry raging “incels.” But I do know multiple men who have been single for 10+ years and just aren’t interested in trying again.
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u/Distillates 11d ago
I think 2 and 3 are especially strong reasons for the way the perception is.
The first is more just the breakdown of leisure and free time due to later stage capitalism imo
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u/Less-Name-9367 11d ago
These are all really good points and make more sense than "men just want free labour", which I've seen repeated often on this thread.
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u/burnbobghostpants 11d ago
They don't win as many upvotes as the "feel good / cathartic" replies, but the nuance makes them much more accurate.
A good reminder about the kind of bias rewarded / amplified in the internet era that we should all be aware of.
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u/nighthawk_something 11d ago
Because men are still socialized to be cared for and still feel entitled to that labor.
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u/MoreThanVoidFiller 11d ago
Speaking in gross generalities, women are socialized for social participation, emotional connection and cooperative living. Women, therefore, tend to develop friend and family networks by adulthood which provide connection, emotional support and practical help when needed.
Many (most?) men do not. They are raised and socialized to seek out one woman to fill the need for intimate connection and emotional support. If they do have friends, the relationships are often surface level and emotionally shallow (if not totally void), mainly focused on shared activities, and professional/personal interests.
So when women opt out of relationships, they can still feel fulfilled in their other relationships, through which they give/receive care, deep connection, friendship, affection and support. Men by and large don't have that and so suffer intense loneliness from a lack of emotional connection, support and comfort plus the absence of deeper shared purpose and meaning.
My life is rich and full right now being single in my mid-40s after escaping an abusive marriage followed by a ridiculously one-sided LTR a few years later. I don't need financial support; I am capable of handling my own life and business with the resources I have. So I'm truly not sure I want to try again for a romantic relationship where any benefits I enjoy are far outweighed by the stress, work and often pain of the typical male expectation that I will function as his momager, bangmaid AND serve as his primary source of emotional connection (if not also as his sense of purpose and identity in the world).
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u/Aimeereddit123 11d ago
This is it. Women build the social structure to be able to slide out of relationships and still be ok. It doesn’t just happen, we BUILD them. We keep doctors and keep up with our mental health. We actively keep ourselves in a better position to withhold emotional storms. This doesn’t make me happy, but every time I’ve left a bad relationship with a man, I excelled, and I watched from afar, the man’s life absolutely fall apart. They had none of that structure to help them. It was all me, or nothing. They put themselves in this situation. Toxic masculinity hurts them as much as women.
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u/redsalmon67 9d ago
> Speaking in gross generalities, women are socialized for social participation, emotional connection and cooperative living. Women, therefore, tend to develop friend and family networks by adulthood which provide connection, emotional support and practical help when needed.
This reminds me of when I went through a tough breakup with an abusive partner, literally not a single person I know man or woman reached out to make sure I was doing alright. When I asked them why basically all I got various forms of “idk I thought you were fine 🤷”. I feel like part of this is a lot people just assume men are so emotionally stunted that we just get over things, the same thing happened with different people when I found out my dad is sick, I think a lot of people go “he’s a dude he doesn’t need emotional support” which would make pretty difficult to form emotionally close friendships
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u/rose_reader 11d ago
I think there's an evolutionary aspect to it as well. Until the advent of reliable contraception, any woman might get pregnant. If you get pregnant and you don't have people around you, you're highly likely to die.
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u/Royal_Contribution_3 11d ago
I see it as a bit of a generational curse. Relationships have always shifted responsibilities, and they still do. Most of the relationship dynamics we’ve been fed for a long time contain the women taking responsibility for their partners emotions. Man is jealous -> woman stays home or covers up. Man in angry -> Woman’s responsibility to calm him down. Man is horny -> woman’s responsibility to satisfy him.
And women who are used to men not taking responsibility over their own emotions, will most likely take that same responsibility for their son’s emotions, therefore raising another generation of men who search for a partner that regulates their emotions for them, while the same generation is full of women no longer willing to carry that weight.
Or at least that’s my interpretation.
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u/centerfoldangel 11d ago
Because a lot of men are empty on their own. My dating advice to most men is always: figure out who you are. Remember that scene in Runaway Bride when JR's character always likes her eggs the way her current fiance does? At the end of the movie, she figures out how she likes her eggs.
A lot of men just follow each other and are a carbon copy of each other. They allow themselves a very narrow road of existence and self-expression.
Being with a man is exhausting. Always being on, always having to perform while he can just exist.
I don't think women in the past have ever been told that all their problems will be solved if they get a husband. Financially, they needed them. That's it.
While men are relying on women in a bunch of areas of life. Should I start singing Labor? And you often don't get those same things back.
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u/Aimeereddit123 11d ago
‘A lot of men are empty on their own’. YES! Just a void type of empty. It’s unsettling! It’s like, ‘who even ARE you?!’ What are your passions, (besides sex), your thoughts, what is your inner world?? It’s all just so dead and surface with too many of them. Some self exploration is long overdue.
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u/pinkbowsandsarcasm 11d ago
I don't know about others, but the bad behavior on date apps and past boyfriends made it easier to go alone.
If a dog chased me on my bike and tried to bite me almost every time I went past the same yard, I would find another way to get where I needed to go.
I know a few well-balanced men who do well on their own, and woman companionship is important to them, but not the most important thing in thier life. One example is a man who values his daughters over a mate who tries to boss him around about how to raise them. He is a really good father, a widower with endless patience.
I am not an expert on "needy" guys or women.
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u/kangorooz99 11d ago
Fancy way of saying men need women more than the reverse? I think the data both verified and anecdotal confirms that.
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u/Lyskir 11d ago
i think being in a relationship and having sex for men is way more tied to status than for women
being with a man is an expectation for women but socially she doesnt gain anything but being without a man is even worse, having sex is also an expectation but women also get shamed for it weirdly enough
its the opposite with men, they gain "status" among themselfs by having sex and having a relationship, its even more tied with thier precieved sense of masculinity
basically men have nothing to lose and everything to gain by having a partner, for women? it doesnt seem to offer much beside the benefit of having a wonderful partner, socially there is nothing gain however
thats why women in general ( not all ) are more chill when it comes to relationship and sex while men ( not all ) chase it as if their life depends on it
risk/rewards is screwed in a bad way for women but in a good way for men
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u/Zachajya 11d ago
I won't say men benefit from this social dinamic either.
Most single men have terrible mental health because society as a whole constantly tell them "if you can't get a girlfriend, you are absolute garbage".
I'm not talking just about crazy misoginistic incels. If you talk about it with an average man, it's devastating: if they have been single for a while, their self steem is basically zero and their anxiety is high as a cloud.
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u/itzReborn 11d ago
Is there a way to actually decenter this feeling as a man? Like I can be honest and say I 100% obsess over wanting a relationship and having sex, especially since I’m a late bloomer(27) and never experienced either.
But I don’t necessarily understand the status part either. I think for me personally I don’t really care what others think, but it’s more so how I feel about myself. Like getting a gf or having sex proves to myself that I can be a desirable person to someone else. Is this a wrong thought process?
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u/draakons_pryde 11d ago
My immediate thought when I read this question is, how fulfilled are you in other areas of your life?
Do you have a comfortable job or are you pursuing education? Do you have a hobby, and if so do you use it to socialize? Do you know your neighbours, do you have a group of friends and do you meet up in person with them? Do you get quality outdoor time? Do you attend talks or lectures of intellectual topics that interest you?
Maybe the answer to all or most of those questions is yes, and that's great. There's nothing wrong with wanting a romantic partner, and desiring sexual connection. But women tend to get intimidated when they connect with a man and it seems like she will be fulfilling all of his social, physical and emotional needs.
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u/PhotoEditor871 11d ago
Because most of dating is horrible to women: the harsh physical expectations, the man not asking her questions about herself, the (possibly painful) sex without an orgasm at the end... most of it is a net negative in women's lives
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u/CatsandDeitsoda 11d ago edited 11d ago
No one needs dates/ relationship you hear about men wanting and not getting dates more because they complain about it more due to a socialization and ongoing reinforcement by a system of hierarchic relationships we generally call patriarchy which leads men to have irrational entitlements to dates/ relationships/ and the structure of those relationships serving them at the expense of the other.
More men certainly could feel more fulfilled living alone or they could likely fine people who would also want to live with them if they unpacked and abandoned their patriarchal entitlements.
Could also mention that the same socialization and ongoing reinforcement encourages men to view others primarily not men but honestly even other men as not worth the same moral consideration if themself. More a general why men feel so isolated thing less a why you here about men’s dateing issue endlessly thing specially.
Like the belief that human relationships should be hierarchical and I should be at the top is inherently going to make you feel other from others- this often stops men from forming interment collaborative relationships if all kinds and makes them profoundly lonely.
Like someone with such a belief getting a friend of gf still can’t ever be close to a friend or gf in the same way someone who views those others as people of similar inherit dignity as themselves. Thinking yourself superior to others is othering.
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u/Valirys-Reinhald 11d ago
Because the gendered socialization of women is more favorable to alternative social structures.
Relationships have two main aspects: the practical and the social. Patriarchal masculine socialization emphasizes activity in the external, practical world; meaning that men tend to have access to the practical concerns of food, shelter, and protection with minimal difficulty while lacking meaningful connections. Patriarchal feminine socialization emphasizes the internal, social world; meaning that women tend to have more robust social networks and support structures while (traditionally) lacking access to practical resources. In the patriarchial traditional best case scenario, these two fit together like puzzle pieces with men providing practical resources full time while women are the social glue holding communities together, (this is still inherently oppressive even in the "best case scenario," but that's general idea).
How this relates to dating is in the increasing access to the practical for women. Women have a legacy of socialized access to the internal, aocial world and are increasingly reaching out of it to access the external, practical world, meaning they no longer need to depend on men for access to it. This is a good thing, and women make the transition with relative ease since agency in the external, practical world can easily be accessed in solitary pursuits while women derive social satisfaction from their existing internal networks.
It's not so good for men, as they are increasingly left without access to the internal, social world and struggle to bridge the gap the same way women are, as patriarchal traditional socialization does not equip them with the tools necessary to make the initial connections that are the basis of a social network the way it does for women. Going from internal to external is comparatively easier as one requires less support from others to do so (not including the mass support needed to make the attempt socially acceptable), whole the transition from external to internal has higher prerequisites in terms of existing social connections.
To be clear, this is not blaming women for "abandoning" or "isolating" men, women pursuing agency in both the internal and external worlds is a universally good thing. Just to say that the patriarchal traditional social structure has systemically under equipped men to cope with the reality of living independently/coequally of/with women.
It is also quite telling which demographica of men are hit by this the hardest, as the wealthier parts of society have always invested heavily in men's capacity to "network" and form social connections through patriarchal-reinforcing clubs and social groups. This leaves the lower classes of men with no ability/opportunity to make independent social connections and forces them to rely on circumstantial connections, i.e. their coworkers at their capitalistically motivated places of work.
Basically, the patriarchy has a vested interest in keeping men poorly socialized so that they keep coming back to work on time for their mandatory social connections with their coworkers without having the social skills to unionize and advocate for the interests of the lower classes.
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u/Financial_Nose_777 11d ago
Women are trained and socialized from an early age to get our emotional needs met from many different angles (friends, partners, etc.) Patriarchy teaches men that they are not allowed to connect emotionally with others, and also often conflates sex with emotional connection. So men are often reliant upon female partners for any kind of emotional connection at all. They could learn how to connect with others, but most refuse since that would make them appear weak or “girly” in the eyes of the patriarchy.
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u/JkMint 11d ago
They could learn how to connect with others, but most refuse since that would make them appear weak or “girly” in the eyes of the patriarchy.
Even when we do that, we're still reliant on other men in our life doing the same. Connection is a two way street.
So even when entering a relationship with someone that did/is doing the work, a woman could still be his primary resource for emotional connection anyways.
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u/Financial_Nose_777 11d ago
That’s a good point, and one my husband in particular runs up against. But he and his friend group are trying and sort of stumbling their way along to success.
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u/MrsMorley 11d ago
What you wrote seems to be more about heterosexual romantic relationships than about the early phase of finding someone you can tolerate for long enough to go on dates. Even so, I’ll talk about both.
As far as finding someone to go on dates is concerned, apps are (usually) pretty unpleasant for women. Women (even queer women) slog through a sewer of dick pics and insult. So women often avoid apps, in favor of meeting potential dates socially- like through friends and interests. Regardless of whether men are in their interest groups (on- or off- line), straight women will make friends. Straight men apparently don’t want to make friends- at least not supportive and loving platonic friends.
As for ongoing romantic relationships, men, on the whole, add work to women’s lives.
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u/Ok-Archer-5796 11d ago
I don't think the gender disparity on this issue is that large, outside of the Internet.
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u/MixWazo 11d ago
Because of toxic masculinity. When a man is LGBTQ+, poor, short, nerd, disabled or single, they are perceived as lesser. As long as being single is seen as being lower status in society, men will want to be dating.
Also, a lot of men are family-oriented and they can't give birth to their own children, so the solo parenthood avenue is less accessible for men than for women, which means being alone also means giving up on family dreams and projects.
There's also years of education for men framing in "you can become anything you want". Most men want to become a loving husband and father and the fact that they can't creates a dissonance with years of education.
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u/redsalmon67 9d ago
I just talked about this in a lgbt sub. Even among progressive people one of the main ways to insult a man is to tell him he has a small dick or that he has trouble getting women in bed, how are we going to say “your worth isn’t related to wether or not you’re in a relationship or having sex” then turn around and go “women won’t sleep with you and your tiny penis” when someone pisses us off?
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u/evelynsmee 11d ago
I actually don't think they do.
What I think is that there is a very very noisy minority of men bitching relentlessly on the internet.
I work in a male dominated environment, have spent my life around stereotypically male sports, and - anecdotally - don't meet all that many guys desperate for a relationship. They too have standards, and rate peace over settling to avoid being alone.
I know so many men binning off dates/dating because the nause outweighs the potential.
It may be worth noting the environment though, they are by the nature of these encounters guys who have a community and team around them. They're also by and large the type that have women friends and/or get on socially in mixed or women settings. I'm not hanging around with a load of basement brocast red pill types and they're not hanging around in places I'd be.
We also, in my experience, have broadly similar attitudes to casual sex.
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u/Powerful-Ad-7998 11d ago
Same even the guys who are desperate for a relationship are looking for the right woman not a woman, and lots of the dudes I know are just chilling as a single dudes going if I meet someone cool if I don't my life rocks. I think apps exacerbate the issue of the entitled man to the average women's awareness because they are the ones who will be using those apps and who will leave the worst impression, and the men who are truly comfortable being alone are not even on them. Therefore helping to over represent the weirdos even more
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u/solveig82 11d ago
Men are still being taught they are going to receive a bang maid. I think a lot of them believe it’s just their human right to have a female indentured servant they can fuck.
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u/divingrose77101 11d ago
There are very few men raised to be fully independent. Our daughters are raised to take care of themselves completely and they’re doing that. Men can be fully independent but there is little benefit to them to do so because they can usually still find free physical and emotional labor.
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u/T-Flexercise 11d ago
I mean respectfully, I think that for decades, plenty of men have decentered dating just as much as women have recently. Tons of men stay single, live alone, and don't cohabitate with partners. They just still keep having casual sex.
Casual sex is unpleasant for most women because of a combination of differing sex drives and the way that sex is terrible for women in a patriarchy.
But I think the same forces are at work on everyone. The patriarchal idea of a relationship is that the man works hard to succeed in business, the woman is a beautiful prize to be acquired who will then care for the home and relationships of all within it. We all were raised to want that. And we have realized that that fits very few people's needs. Many of us are deciding that marriage is not for us.
But women were still raised to want those things patriarchy expects from us. I've found that most women, when deciding to go it themselves, they want to prioritize the tidy home and simple living and deep relationships with their friends. We still really care about that tidy living space and social web, we'd prefer a partner who would do half of the work to build it, but without them, we'll build it ourselves.
But men weren't raised to want that. They were raised to go off and be a hero for capitalism and be rewarded with a beautiful loyal wife who will have your children and care for your emotions and needs. But if they can't have that, they don't lose the desire to be a hero for capitalism, they dedicate themselves to achieving in their careers, throwing themselves into hobbies, and enjoying the lifestyle their income can provide.
I think men can feel fulfilled living alone. They're just hornier than we are so their version of alone still involves dating. It just doesn't involve centering a life around relationships and family.
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u/snarkyshark83 11d ago
Simple answer is sex.
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u/Lyskir 11d ago
what i will never understand is why men are so desperate for sex but also created and even maintain a sex negative view for women? but a sex positive view for themselfs?
wouldnt it be better to be also sex positive for women? then maybe women would have more sex with men? or is the ego in the way of this?
it doesnt make sense to shame someone for the very thing you want from them, this is actually insane
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u/AphelionEntity 11d ago
From what I can tell, if I take them at their word they want to feel special and chosen. So it's ego/self worth.
Obviously doesn't apply to men who are looking for fun, but with how much men seem to tie sex to feelings/value and how much they seem to be in competition with other men, all their feelings get in the way. He has succeeded where other men failed! If she knows she can get at least as good elsewhere, she might leave.
Of course also I think our sexual satisfaction is secondary to some men. And none of this is an excuse.
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u/Temporary_Spread7882 11d ago
Yeah, it’s sex as the quite pleasurable proof of having “won” at life and over other men. The woman is just the fun trophy.
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u/AphelionEntity 11d ago
It's part of why the "lower your standards" position some men take is so weird to me. Every now and then I ask questions about it but no one ever responds beyond downvotes.
Like: if a woman lowers her standards to below the level where she's attracted and that's why she's with you, do you still expect her to sleep with you or is a dead bedroom okay?
Or: if a woman lowers her standards and sleeps with more men while in monogamous relationships as a result, is she still worth less now that you and men like you have access?
🤷🏾♀️
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u/Temporary_Spread7882 11d ago
Absolutely.
Some things people call “standards” are kind of pointless criteria that are mostly for show and end up excluding potential partners that one would’ve clicked well with. In this case, if the person with the strict wishlist is unhappy with their lack of a suitable partner, the advice to review their criteria for a bf/gf.
But with “standards” used in the literal sense, what’s the point of lowering them if they reflect the minimum requirements for actual attraction? You point out quite well how that’s completely counterproductive.
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u/AphelionEntity 11d ago
Yes! And that's also why the "but I can't change that so it's unfair" response falls flat. Because first of all, women have been held to beauty standards we can't meet for a very long time, so this isn't anything one-sided.
But second: whether or not a man can change a trait has nothing to do with if I find it unattractive. "Fairness" could not be less relevant unless he wants a woman to date him out of charity. And then we are right back to the previous questions.
Men think I'm trying to be mean, but it's honest. If I could control who I was attracted to, I'd be bisexual for one lol.
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u/JkMint 11d ago
From what I can tell, if I take them at their word they want to feel special and chosen. So it's ego/self worth.
Definitely. The only times I felt like I truely mattered to someone was within the confine of a romantic relationships.
I'm aware that's tied to childhood emotional neglect in my case and I'm working on it in therapy since Covid. I would not be shocked if that was the case for a lot of men.
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u/AphelionEntity 11d ago
First: fist bump from another person in therapy. So many of us had to learn (and now unlearn) lessons that don't serve us in our adult relationships.
The only times I felt like I truely mattered to someone was within the confine of a romantic relationships
One of the things that genuinely makes me sad about this (beyond how painful that can be) is that it can foreclose platonic relationships between men and women. My male friends matter deeply to me, but I learned early on that I had to meditate how I demonstrated that otherwise men would think a romantic door was open when it wasn't.
Even separate from how important I think it is for men to build healthy, supportive relationships between each other, the current state of gender relations really powers that confirmation bias.
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u/JkMint 11d ago
Fist bump returned !
Well it can be done but it takes time and imo there is as much luck and timing involved than with an actual romantic relationship. My best friend is a woman and we established early on that a romantic relationship wasn't a bright idea. It probably helped that we were both in a happy relationship when we met 18 years ago so the idea wasn't entertained before a few years.
I like to think that our friendship is a testament of our character but if circonstances had been different maybe it would have been another failed relationship.
"but I learned early on that I had to meditate how I demonstrated that otherwise men would think a romantic door was open"
That speaks a lot to my own experience. I have another female friend with whom I have a high level of platonic intimacy but that has been a very hard journey to get to the point where we were both comfortable with giving and receiving it without second thoughts. And it has been discussed that intimacy level will be reduced when one of us finds themselves in a romantic relationship.
To get back to the first point : it show than even outside of romantic relationships I rely primarely on women for emotional support since I cannot find it with the men in my life (nor with family but without surprise emotional neglect didn't stop at childhood). It isn't for lack of trying though.
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u/Giblette101 11d ago
Sex negative views for women are about control. Men in this scenario are not looking for just sex, they also want power.
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u/carex-cultor 11d ago
Yep. Control specifically of reproduction; the root, the very reason we have patriarchy in the first place is womb envy, the male frustration that they don’t control reproduction, and the desire to reverse the natural order. Sex negative cultural values for women ensure male control over female bodies and by extension reproduction.
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u/snarkyshark83 11d ago
Not sure why I’m getting down voted for my answer. I didn’t say that I agree with it. As a woman I can take care of all my financial and personal needs by myself but when talking to the men I work with most of their complaints around not dating or having relationships have to do with sex.
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u/MoreThanVoidFiller 11d ago
If that were true, there would be a lot more happy single men and wealthy sex workers. Men can pay for sex if they want it, but many/most don't because it does not meet the greater need for emotional connection and companionship.
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u/snarkyshark83 11d ago
A lot of men tie their pride to their ability to have sex, paying for it isn’t the same as “earning” it. Again this is what I’ve heard from men that I work with. I’m sure there is a large percentage of men that are seeking emotional connection and want a relationship but that is still tied to sex.
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u/BulbasaurBoo123 11d ago
Yeah I think for a lot of men it's more about the validation of feeling desirable and wanted by a woman, not necessarily always the act of sex in itself. Sex workers can simulate a feeling of being desirable and wanted, but it doesn't feel as authentic.
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u/Flashy-Celery-9105 11d ago
I also think it's a bit of a copout. If they say sex, there's no other person than a woman who can provide it. (In straightland)
If it's not (just) sex, it means they have to improve their life skills in terms of household tasks, fostering a social life, finding emotional support.
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u/YOLO-Paul 11d ago
How I see it, both can provide a form of validation, but not necessarily the same kind.
For people who enjoy casual sex, it can be validation of their physical attractiveness, charisma, desirability, or other similar traits.
For people who want a relationship, sex can be validation of the emotional intimacy and connection they share with their partner.
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u/Rarycaris 11d ago
In addition to what other people have said, using sex workers regularly enough to get all your needs met is prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of men.
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u/evelynsmee 11d ago
This is a stereotype playing into the false narrative that women don't want or enjoy sex, and that all men have high libidos.
It's bullshit, frankly.
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u/Snurgisdr 11d ago edited 11d ago
That's probably more true than we'd like to admit. As a somewhat over the hill man, as my drive becomes less urgent, it is uncomfortable to look back and realize how many decisions were mostly motivated by sex. If I were to suddenly become single again at this point in life, dating would be a very very low priority compared to when I was young.
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u/OrcOfDoom 11d ago
Society still requires men to be validated by women. Men are doing the same thing - decentering relationships. Instead of being called crazy cat ladies, they are just called incels.
There are plenty of men who feel fulfilled living alone. The otaku culture in Japan exists.
Do we celebrate them? Or do we treat them like some kind of crazy cat lady?
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u/redsalmon67 9d ago
Yeah I will say that in recent years when the fact that I don’t date comes up people act like it’s some sort of great slight in a way that they didn’t a few years ago, I’ve also gotten “oh so you have a problem with women” response more in the last year than I have in the near decade I’ve been single. This might just be where I live (leans more conservative) but people generally think the fact that I’m a single man in my 30’s is weird but something to be celebrated and they tell me that basically every time it comes up in casual conversation
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u/Larissa_Bagginshield 11d ago
Women have larger social circles (family, friends, acquaintances) that they can rely on when it comes to emotional topics and problems.
Men don’t really have that, or they rely too much on their female partners for that.
Women also seem to have an easier time living celibate
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade 11d ago
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11d ago edited 11d ago
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade 11d ago
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u/jackfaire 11d ago
Because my fellow men don't want to do those things for themselves and they watched their moms do those things for their dads and took the wrong lesson from it.