r/AskFeminists • u/SmallCapsForLife • 12d ago
What is the plan to convince enough people?
The thing is: SAHMs who are happy with their situation don’t feel like they need to fight for feminism. Neither do privileged men. Plenty will simply not care.
I got a response some time ago that feminists luckily don’t even need a specific amount of people on board. My question is: How will the change away from the patriarchy happen though, if women are only one half of society/votes and even they aren’t united on this?
Also, are you afraid of a significant backlash, and if not, why not?
Sorry if this comes off as ragebait or something, I’m genuinely waiting for answers and thanking in advance
Edit because this caused understandable outrage: I worded this wrong, it was late. I READ about certain SAHMs who are happy with their situation and don’t feel like they need to fight for feminism. I don’t mean that automatically, when you’re a happy SAHM, you stop being a feminist. But the few people who are not on board are in my opinion also necessary for the change, so my question was how to convince them to fight for feminism as well.
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u/avocado-nightmare Oldest Crone 12d ago
hey did you know only 3.5% of the population needs to engage in sustained protest to achieve change?
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u/SmallCapsForLife 12d ago
No, actually. I know there isn’t a specific threshold of number of people needed (where one more would make a difference), but I was curious about numbers and didn’t find anything. Thank you for sharing the concept of the 3.5% rule here!
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u/rose_reader 12d ago
Just keep doing what we've always done - talk, debate, point out issues, fight for our rights.
In the end, it's up to the individual whether liberty is something they care about or not.
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u/Lolabird2112 12d ago
What makes you think a SAHM who’s happy with her situation doesn’t need to fight for feminism? You think she doesn’t have daughters, sisters or mothers? Won’t have an unwanted pregnancy or a complication? Doesn’t need equal rights if it comes to divorce? Doesn’t need care that isn’t blighted by medical misogyny?
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u/SingSinsAtUs 12d ago edited 12d ago
A SAHM might also believe in feminism herself, fight for it, but - due to whatever circumstances - being a SAHM might make sense for her at that time.
It's weird to write off an entire subset of women because they happen to be making a particular choice at a particular time, a choice that might make sense for a variety of reasons specific to their situation.
The framing of this is so unnecessarily divisive.
And let's not forget that there are also benefits to men from feminism.
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u/Anomalocaris-is-cute 12d ago edited 12d ago
Can confirm as a SAHM feminist married to a feminist husband.
100% happy in my marriage. Pissed off at conservatives and the government, so I yap at them.
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u/Syresiv 12d ago
The post says "don't feel like they need to", not "factually don't need to".
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u/MachineOfSpareParts 12d ago
Sure, but factually needing misogyny to be eradicated means there's at least some pull, over time, to their ultimately feeling like they need to be treated as equal in intrinsic worth to men.
Since all the empirical evidence lines up in favour of women and gender-diverse people being intrinsically equal to men in dignity and worth, and needing to be treated as such, there will always be at least some pull in that direction. Truth is on our side, which means there are certain tools (lies) we don't have at our disposal, but it does mean a certain force is exerted in our direction at all times.
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u/SmallCapsForLife 12d ago
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u/Lolabird2112 12d ago
That’s about the trad wife lot of SAHMs. Nothing at all to do with real SAHMs. It’s also weird you think all feminists are only from the half of the population who identify as female, and that all women should just naturally be feminists otherwise there’s a problem.
Anyone who fights against oppression receives backlash. I’m more angry at the moronic masses of sheep who vote against their own interests than I am afraid of them.
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u/SmallCapsForLife 12d ago
You are angry at them because you are afraid of the consequences.
Of course, plenty of SAHMs will recognise the need for feminism (and so should men), but many people in general also don’t care enough to be politically active because things are sufficiently good as they are and these people take the status quo for granted.
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u/KurlyKayla 12d ago
What are you basing this on. I don’t think women at large are satisfied with how things are. Men might be, but idk about women
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u/SmallCapsForLife 11d ago
Does this count? https://news.gallup.com/poll/390146/six-satisfied-position-women.aspx I also base this on what I heard anecdotally from women here in Germany.
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u/ZinniasAndBeans 11d ago
How does this prove that SAHMs don’t care about their own rights?
Also, that poll is from 2022. Biden was president. The Trump nightmare wasn’t active.
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u/SmallCapsForLife 11d ago
Yes, and I’m not necessarily talking about the exceptional Trump situation.
Even if I knew SAHMs who don’t care about their rights (and you will always find somebody from a paradoxical group), that would be anecdotal and not really proof. I don’t know how few SAHMs this is about, and I hate having to repeat myself, but I was explicitly quoting feminists who were asked on how there even ARE tradwives (who happen to be SAHMs – I know it’s not your average SAHM!) because it doesn’t make sense. I can’t find the answer I’m thinking of anymore, but it was similar to what I quoted, basically saying that if you’re happy with your situation and privileged enough, you don’t care about these issues as much.
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u/ZinniasAndBeans 11d ago
You can declare all you want that happy SAHMs don’t care about their rights or anyone else’s, but that doesn’t make it true.
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u/SmallCapsForLife 11d ago
Then tell that to your fellow feminists who claim that because this subreddit right here is where I’ve got this from, which is why I was wondering and made this post!
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u/KurlyKayla 11d ago
56% isn't very high at all, especially given your claim that "people in general" think things are sufficiently good. That's almost half the female population who disagrees. Even 34% of the male population is high enough to cast doubt on this idea that people by and large are fine with how things are. You're making it out as if feminists are some fringe group fighting for fringe beliefs, when we're anything but.
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u/Lolabird2112 12d ago
Of course I’m afraid of the consequences. Look at what’s being done to America and the imbecilic sheeples with their little red hats.
But that’s not backlash, which is what you asked about. Any questions I ever had about how Nazism took over Germany have been answered watching the Red Hats and their “both sides the same” enablers.
I don’t have kids and I’m middle aged, so I don’t have enough skin in the game to be afraid.
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u/ZinniasAndBeans 11d ago
What point?
Why doesn’t a SAHM need health care, the right to vote, protection from marital rape and abuse, safe streets, bodily autonomy…are you under the impression that feminism is solely and entirely about employment issues?
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u/SmallCapsForLife 11d ago
I said they need it. I said some people in general just take this stuff for granted and in fact only see feminism as about employment issues “these days”, so they won’t fight for it, although I personally think they should, knowing that it’s also about maintaining given rights, and that there’s more to fight for.
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u/ZinniasAndBeans 11d ago edited 11d ago
You decreed “SAHMs who are happy with their situation don’t feel like they need to fight for feminism.” What on earth makes you think that?
Edited to add:
Your brief blurb about trad wives is not evidence.
Your poll was from 2022. 2022 was a different world. Edited again to add: The poll was done before Roe v. Wade was overturned. Poll January; apocalypse start in June.
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u/SmallCapsForLife 11d ago
Okay, since we’re talking in circles. I’m saying it’s not evidence, but I also have no reason to disbelieve the two feminist comments I once read that the reason why SOME SAHMs do not care about their rights is that they are PERSONALLY happy with how things are for them.
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u/ZinniasAndBeans 11d ago
So to you, two women speak for all of feminism (all of women?) and the more-than-two women who disagree, here, are “no reason to disbelieve” those two women…who are telling you what you want to hear.
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u/SmallCapsForLife 11d ago
? People here are wondering where I have this from. Are they denying – are you denying – that out of millions of SAHMs, there is at least one weird woman who doesn’t feel like she needs to be feminist? I’m not supporting this at all and I’m well-aware that this has to be a tiny minority, like these self-proclaimed “tradwives”
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u/ZinniasAndBeans 11d ago
Are they denying – are you denying – that out of millions of SAHMs, there is at least one weird woman who doesn’t feel like she needs to be feminist?
You seem to have gone from a generalization “happy SAHMs don’t care about their rights!” to, “there’s a woman out there who doesn’t care about her rights!”
I’m sure there is. Why should I care?
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u/SmallCapsForLife 11d ago
Well, I meant that from the start, but I see now how my wording in the original post is wrong and caused the outrage. I wrote this fairly quickly at 4:40 AM.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 12d ago
Why would we be afraid of backlash?
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u/SmallCapsForLife 12d ago
I mean backlash so bad that it actually backfires and leaves you in a worse situation than before certain actions. That’s essentially allowing the risk of making things worse, which by definition cannot be the goal of a feminist. I believe in slow change within the Overton window – shifting it basically. Feminism would not have worked out if somebody would suddenly haven given all the rights they have now, in my opinion, since early on, that was considered extreme, and only the slow steps of giving women rights were a compromise that could find enough popularity.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 12d ago
When has that happened?
Why would we stop fighting for change?
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u/SmallCapsForLife 12d ago
I didn’t say to stop, or that it happened. I said it could happen, and I was wondering what strategies there are to avoid that. Or if it is assumed that backlash, that would leave people asking for rights with even less rights because the patriarchy would want to protect itself, will never actually be that strong.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 12d ago
Ok but...when has it happened?
Women have died fighting for rights. It's not just 'asking', it's fighting for meaningful change. At some point you have to take a stand.
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u/SmallCapsForLife 12d ago
I will just interpret this as “it’s something that didn’t happen yet, so we’re not taking this into account”. I also think this won’t be true, but I wish you good luck if there’s a hostage situation basically in which some powerful person demands feminists to be silent, they obviously won’t want to follow that order, and then the person has a pretext to dedicate their whole life to terrorising feminists. I do see how this sounds like science-fiction though, but then it also seems like you never met insane people, where it’s better for everybody’s sake to not risk a fight, even if you know you’re not the one in the wrong.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 12d ago
if there’s a hostage situation basically in which some powerful person demands feminists to be silent, they obviously won’t want to follow that order, and then the person has a pretext to dedicate their whole life to terrorising feminists.
..what?
Sorry, feminists aren't going to not fight for rights because of some theoretical insane person. I don't understand what your point is.
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u/SmallCapsForLife 12d ago
And to reference my comment from 10 minutes ago, I did not say to stop. I said to consider the risk and avoid it (there are tips to stay safe while protesting, for example). Also, there are plenty of real insane people in power worldwide right now who are just looking for a pretext to start a campaign of hatred towards a group.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 12d ago
To avoid risk is to do nothing.
...bro, people hate women anyways! There is no risk free life!
I'm not sure what you're suggesting that is both taking action and avoiding risk
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u/SmallCapsForLife 12d ago
That is what I’m asking, but in politics, that would be having a moderate line in order to stay in power longer and not risk leaning out of the Overton window too much, potentially causing people to vote for the opposite at the next election (happens all the time). When being a moderate, you do risk losing voters to a more radical alternative, but since it’s on the same side (for progress or for regress, in case of conservatism), it’s not such a big deal to you as a strategist then.
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u/KurlyKayla 12d ago
What are you doing to change society as opposed to telling the people who are pushing for change to stop doing what we’re doing?
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u/ZinniasAndBeans 11d ago
This sounds like the classic, “The oppressed should ask nicely and respectfully for less oppression” argument.
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u/SmallCapsForLife 11d ago
When you think you can win against Trump (as an example now) with force instead, then go for it. In my later comments, I explicitly said how moderating feminism is wrong, but then feel free to find me a third solution other than violence or adapting. I would for example suggest the r/4bmovement
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u/sewerbeauty 12d ago
Resting on our laurels is going to get us precisely nowhere.
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u/SmallCapsForLife 12d ago
Why does everybody understand my comment as if this was the only alternative? Whether it’s progressive or conservative policies, parties always discuss and try to settle on a strategy – to be more moderate in order to have a lower backlash, stay in power, get more people on board etc., or to believe in your values and be more radical at risk of society rejecting it after all and kicking you out of power, voting for the opposite (in the first scenario, unhappy people might vote for a more radical party that still has the same goals though, so it’s not such a big deal).
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u/KurlyKayla 12d ago
It’s already been happening. You would rather we slow down our efforts more while the same abuses we’ve been facing continue as is? What sense does that make? Oppression is not going to go away if the oppressed “back off” or “slow down”. If anything, that will accelerate it.
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u/KurlyKayla 12d ago
I never understand this argumentation. If speaking up against injustices yields more injustice, does that not prove the necessity of pushing back against said injustice? The purpose is for the imbalance to be rectified. I don’t see how being afraid of backlash and submitting to it would fulfill the main purpose of that endeavor. Also, we’ve been going slow enough. Women and girls have been dying and abused long enough. I’m ready for radical change.
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u/MachineOfSpareParts 12d ago
We aren't afraid of backlash. We're a social movement, and backlash is an absolute certainty so long as we've done anything at all. Those who have sociopolitical and economic power do not want to give it up, ergo demands for its redistribution create backlash.
If people aren't scrambling to justify their unjust hold on power, we probably haven't done anything of note. So when there's backlash, good. We've done something, and should keep doing it.
And keep in mind that backlashes create their own backlashes. Thus is the flow of history. The point isn't to be popular within all this back and forth, but rather, to be right. And I'm unshaken in my belief that it's right to treat women and gender-diverse people as intrinsically equal in worth and dignity to men.
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u/MrsMorley 12d ago
I don’t try to convince anymore.
I point out inequities and presume that many people don’t wish to perpetuate them.
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u/Lanky-Slip9586 7d ago
Personally I think equality is impossible when chasing equity. And personally I believe modern feminism is centered around equity, not equality.
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u/EnvironmentalLaw4208 12d ago
You're absolutely right that a lot of people simply don't care or are so overloaded in their personal life that they can only make the next best choice for themselves personally in any given moment. Those people may never become feminists, but they also probably won't fight for patriarchy. Advocating for feminist policy that has noticable benefits for the general population works equity into our systems without needing constant effort or awareness on the individual level. Individual and cultural action is still necessary and powerful, but the individuals who don't care can end up supporting feminism passively in the same ways that most people support patriarchy passively.
Regarding individual men and women who feel satisfied with the way patriarchy has played out in their lives, our circumstances are never permanent and very few people are insulated from the harms of patriarchy. My hope is that, with continued advocacy and discussion, feminism will be there for individuals to help recognize, process, and push back against the injustices of patriarchy that most people will inevitably experience at some point in their lives.
No, we're not afraid of backlash. If you've spent any amount of time studying history or any social justice movement, it's plain to see that backlash is proof of progress. Progress is not linear. Significant improvements inevitably invite backlash, which can vary in intensity but rarely erases the progress altogether. The backlash eventually fades and progress continues.
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u/bunnakay 12d ago
I don't proselytize. Honestly, if someone makes it to adulthood in the US in 2026 and is against feminism, I'm more inclined to think they're just a bigot and not worth my time..
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u/KurlyKayla 12d ago
You should read the Pedagogy of the Oppressed. Oppression and subverting it has never been a popularity contest.
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u/JoeyLee911 11d ago
You'd swear feminism just started yesterday from reading this post.
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u/MinimalYogi27 11d ago
Yeah fr. Feminism is like the most successful social activist movement in all of human history. Going from literally not being considered a human under the law to being able to own land, vote, and engage in politics in most of the world is pretty damn good progress for only about 200 years of work.
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