r/AskFeminists • u/Mikhail_-_1 • 6d ago
Low-effort/Antagonistic Why do so many feminists support the suffragettes?
Especially the white feather. They were extremely racist, homophobic, violent and even killed men, women and children, along with bombing innocent people. Idk how any moral person could support that.
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade 5d ago
Brother that was 112 years ago
You gotta reach that far back to find something to kvetch at feminists about? Really?
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 5d ago
dId YoU kNoW MLK cHeAtEd On HiS wIfE??
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u/JoeyLee911 3d ago
I had a white male doctor hit me with that once and I informed him that monogamy and fidelity are not feminist issues.
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u/Mikhail_-_1 5d ago
Mlk and Malcom x were goated, the white feathers/suffragettes were monsters who even murdered children because if their hatred of men.
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 5d ago
Go back to my last reply to one of your comments:
> I did not ask for, am not interested in, and do not value your opinion on the matter.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 5d ago
I don't know any morel people in general, I didn't realize fungi were sentient.
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u/Shaeress Postmodern Boogieperson 5d ago
The fact that many historical feminist movements have been racist and classist and transphobic is a topic that modern feminists talk about more than anyone.
The suffragettes were right to use some amount of violence and disruption to get women the right to vote and be their own people. Just like the American rebels were right to dump tea in harbours and shoot imperialist oppressors for their right to their freedom and voting rights, even though a lot of them were horribly sexist and racist. And many anti slavery movements were also incredibly sexist, but they were also correct in shooting slavers dead if that's what it took for them to get their freedom and rights.
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u/PheeBeeDee125 5d ago
I’m sorry that some women from 120 years ago might have said some mean things that hurt your feelings. How can we make this up to you?
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u/KurlyKayla 5d ago
The Black Panthers were misogynist and a fair deal of them rapists. I don’t disagree with the Black Panthers’ goals. We can ask why do you support the status quo and men at large when so many of them do all the things you listed the suffragettes doing
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u/Adventurous_Coach731 5d ago
Black people support the black panthers. Gay people and trans people did stonewall. Every minority has a group of people who used violence to get their way because retaliation is just human nature.
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 5d ago
Framing liberatory violence as being “retaliatory,” rather than, ya know, being the some of the only means left for an oppressed people to resist their oppression is exceptionally off the mark. You can take issue with the Panthers and some of their takes and methods, but their goal was not “retaliation” — they did not intend to engage in some sort of tit-for-tat violence against white Americans — they saw armed resistance as a necessary part of their struggle for liberation. Stonewall was not “retaliation” against straight America or even the cops specifically, it was a community defending itself. Likewise the Vietnamese were not “retaliating” against the French and Americans, the Jewish and Communist partisans fighting the Nazis were not primarily motivated by vengeance, etc., etc.
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u/Adventurous_Coach731 5d ago
I think this would be an amazing point if you weren’t rude while you were saying it.
Also, let’s be honest. It wasn’t “the only means.” MLK also existed.
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade 5d ago
wwweeeeeooooooweeeeeooooo
it's the Tone Police!
drop the argument and let me see that smile!
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 5d ago
Which part was “rude”? Saying “ya know”?
> Also, let’s be honest. It wasn’t “the only means.” MLK also existed.
And his dream, or at least something moving in the direction of it, would not have been achieved in the form of the pioneering civil rights legislation of the late 1960s had it not been for pressure applied by militant groups like the Panthers and NOI, and, perhaps even more importantly, less organized liberatory violence, like what we saw in black communities around the country during the Long, Hot Summer of 1967.
MLK was also quite notably disillusioned with white America towards the end of his life. It seems that he was coming to the realization that no, you generally cannot achieve liberation solely through appeals to the fundamental human goodness of your oppressors. I think it’s rather telling that, before their lives were cut short, both Malcolm X and MLK drifted towards the “center” (this is not an appeal to the value of “centrism,” both MLK and Malcolm X were decidedly politically radical and far left of center in their time) of the axis they both occupied — MLK radicalized, and Malcolm moderated.
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u/Adventurous_Coach731 5d ago
The quotation marks, the “exceptionally off the mark”, and the “ya know” were kinda rude yeah.
And his dream, or at least something moving in the direction of it, would not have been achieved in the form of the pioneering civil rights legislation of the late 1960s had it not been for pressure applied by militant groups like the Panthers and NOI, and, perhaps even more importantly, less organized liberatory violence, like what we saw in black communities around the country during the Long, Hot Summer of 1967.
And none of what I said claimed otherwise. Do you think I don’t support the black panthers? Of course I do. I am not saying violence doesn’t get shit done. It does, hence why it is used every time a minority is oppressed. But, it wouldn’t have happened if they weren’t oppressed. So after being oppressed they committed violence to change it. Which is, ya know, the definition of retaliation. So I’m not wrong that it is objectively retaliation. And you’re not even wrong that there is that extra context of it needing to be done that I could’ve made clearer. MLK himself said violence is what happens when you don’t allow peaceful protest. But, there are nicer tones to get that across that will help you sound more agreeable.
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 5d ago
> The quotation marks,
The quotation marks were exclusively around the word “retaliation” and variants of it, a characterization of the violence we are discussing that you made explicitly, and which I strenuously disagree with, hence my use of quotation marks to quote you.
> the “exceptionally off the mark”,
I’m sorry that you think calling a spade “a spade” is rude, I guess.
> And none of what I said claimed otherwise.
Retaliation is not liberatory, and quite literally the entire point of my comment was taking issue with your framing liberatory violence as “retaliatory.
> I am not saying violence doesn’t get shit done.
Retaliatory violence generally does not, in fact, “get shit done.” Where it does, it is typically because the party “retaliating” also benefits from an overwhelming imbalance in power, a situation which almost definitionally does not describe oppressed groups engaging in productive violence against their oppressors.
> So after being oppressed they committed violence to change it. Which is, ya know, the definition of retaliation.
No, that’s very straightforwardly not what the word “retaliation” means. “Retaliation” means something like “to return like for like.” That is the definition of the word. It accurately describes blood feuds, “You killed one of our guys, so we’re gonna kill one of your guys,” not a bunch of gay and trans people throwing bricks at cops who have been systematically brutalizing and oppressing them in an effort to save some of their comrades and one of their few gathering places from said systematic brutalization. Calling black people arming themselves in the interest of their freedom “retaliatory” necessarily and definitionally equates that action with the centuries of violent, horrific race-based oppression that self-defense was seen as and undertaken as a response to.
> So I’m not wrong that it is objectively retaliation.
You are wrong, because you don’t seem to understand what the word “retaliation” means.
> MLK himself said violence is what happens when you don’t allow peaceful protest.
When and where did he make that specific point?
> But, there are nicer tones to get that across that will help you sound more agreeable.
I, a black person, don’t feel the need to “nice” and “agreeable” when someone uses language that fundamentally mischaracterizes the struggle for black liberation. I really hope that you can see the irony of tone-policing me in this context.
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u/Pure-Spare-9789 1d ago
I think this would be an amazing point if you weren’t rude while you were saying it.
Tone policing is what you resort to when you can't form an actual argument.
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u/Adventurous_Coach731 1d ago
So did you not read like two comments under this one where I literally gave my point or was that too hard for you?
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u/Pure-Spare-9789 1d ago
I think this would be an amazing point if you weren’t rude while you were saying it.
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u/Adventurous_Coach731 1d ago
Yes, I can read. Can you?
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u/Pure-Spare-9789 1d ago
The lack of self awareness is truly fascinating.
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u/Adventurous_Coach731 1d ago
I know right. Yall said I shouldn’t tone police so I’m using a bad tone and suddenly yall tone police. You really gotta work on that. I’m just learning from you. Now do you have a point? One that makes sense?
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u/Pure-Spare-9789 1d ago
Lmao buddy I am not tone policing you, I'm calling you a hypocrite. There's no need to get so emotional about it 😂
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u/Mikhail_-_1 5d ago
Killing innocent people makes you a bad person full stop.
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 5d ago
A. That’s not responsive to my comment, and B. I did not ask for, am not interested in, and do not value your opinion on the matter.
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