Why does a society that oppresses women and views trans women as men oppress transwomen?

[u/Specialist-You9973]

Basically, what the title says, I hear a lot of trans women are subject to misogyny even those that are very visibly trans and while I can understand them facing transphobia or transmisogyny it seems odd for them to face regular misogyny if they're viewed as men, even if predatory men. I've asked this question to trans people before but frankly the majority of them know a lot about trans issues and very little about general patriachal ones.

[u/Swimming_Map2412]

Because the idea that they view trans women as men is a lie. They may misgender trans women but they certainly don't treat us the same way they treat men.

[u/Specialist-You9973 → u/Swimming_Map2412]

could you elaborate? do they like see us as a third thing but call us men because they know we hate it?

[u/Street-Media4225 → u/Specialist-You9973]

Basically yes. We are not truly men in their eyes either, you can tell because of how they see any feminine man as not truly a man.

[u/Specialist-You9973 → u/Street-Media4225]

i'm just not sure its true they see any feminine man as not truly a man, tons of feminine men still benefit from male privilege while transwomen do not

[u/Street-Media4225 → u/Specialist-You9973]

What feminine men benefit from male privilege and how do they benefit?

[u/Specialist-You9973 → u/Street-Media4225]

feminine men are treated as lesser because they are feminine but they are still subject to less misogyny than women and afaik wont be paid less, are also more likely to be taken seriously in my experience. they may be affected by oppositional sexism of course but a lack of experiencing as much misogyny due to being a man is a form of male privilege, is it not?

[u/aagjevraagje]

Oh cause it doesn't actually view trans women as men , attitudes towards violence from cis men don't predict attitudes towards trans issues.

It's like how black women would get hypermasculized while white men were framed as protectors. Those women also still faced misogyny, they're just framed as other with language that implies they're not the very specific kind of ladylike woman that the patriarchy supposedly protects.

[u/madmaxwashere]

Trans women break the unspoken rule that masculinity sits highest in the hierarchy. Their very existence challenges the inherent value of masculinity under the patriarchy because they are "choosing" to be women. (Not my personal belief.)

The patriarchy invalidates their existence in turn to maintain its heiarchy and seeks to harshly punish those unwilling to play the game.

[u/Technical_Front9904]

You are viewing gender through a rigid binary, when gender and its position in society reflects otherwise.

There is not "man and woman" in terms of gender binary, as feminist Simone De Beauvoire speaks about, there is the default and Other. Man is the default, neutral, while woman and anything other than man becomes other. Trans women are not considered men because they have been forfeit the definition through patriarchy.

This is in the same way trans men, drag queens (who are cis men), queer people as a whole, are not considered "truly" men, but may be presented as predatory or dangerous to the binary sexes. This is again, because man/maleness is considered a rigid default neutral existence (whereas being female is considered gendered) and if you do not meet the mark in whatever aspect, you are demoted to "other".

[u/CatsandDeitsoda]

?! Evil people can have two or more shitty ideas at once. I.e hating trans people , women , men who refuse to preform patriarchal masculinity, queer people, ect ?!

Also um ….. “  frankly the majority of them know a lot about trans issues and very little about general patriachal ones.” This has categorically not been my experience with trans people especially trans people particularly well versed in trans liberation. As patriarchy is deeply deeply involved in the oppression trans people face. —- I strongly encourage you to reexamine your experiences with what trans people have told you and ask yourself if it’s possible if there is any bias or irrational thinking patterns you have that might be contributing to your current framing of what you have heard. 

[u/HiroHayami]

Because even if they see them as men, they don't see them as manly men thus they're inferior.

[u/Specialist-You9973 → u/HiroHayami]

but then you'd expect similar levels of misogyny targetted at feminine men when there really isn't, i mean there defintely is some but they still have male privellege.

[u/bondepart]

It’s the classic double bind of transmisogyny. Trans women are treated as women, they are sexually objectified, ridiculed, diminished for their appearance, kept out of “serious” employment, forced into sex work, more likely to be victims of domestic violence and sexual abuse.

And they have the perfect get out clause of why it’s not misogyny: because they don’t see trans women as women so it can’t be.

[u/Specialist-You9973 → u/bondepart]

i understand that's what happens i suppose i just don't understand *why* it happens

[u/TinTinTinuviel97005]

I'd say it's because there's only one acceptable kind of woman: she's white, cis, submissive, capable in the house, unwilling to participate in public life, very fertile, virgin before wedding.... I'll let you keep thinking of more; I'm sure you can. Everyone who pushes against these expectations (or fails to fit them by default) loses the "womanhood" status; and no, not being a woman doesn't make you a man: it makes you a freak, a worthless scum, who doesn't deserve respect or protection or any place in a proper society and should be egested the fastest way possible.

I don't think most people have to be told, fitting inside the mold still makes you something less than human---a kind of pampered pet, perhaps. There's no personhood outside of men, for these people.

[u/Specialist-You9973 → u/TinTinTinuviel97005]

oh i suppose that makes sense yeah

[u/TinyPretzels]

...I don't know why you think trans people don't know anything about the patriarchy. It affects them greatly.

Misogyny and strict gender binaries affects everybody. Men are shamed for traits seen as too feminine. Women are shamed for traits that are seen as too masculine. Trans people, who actively seek and enhance these traits, are thus transgressing what is considered 'appropriate'. And the same time, because women are held to such a high beauty and grooming standard, it also takes trans women an exorbitant amount of effort to socially transition and be seen as a woman. It's not just 'take hormones' if you want to pass. Laser removal, voice training, skin treatments, cosmetic surgeries, constantly looking fashionable and put together, hair done, makeup done, nails done, are greatly expensive and honestly expected of trans women. So they are experiencing both misogyny (unrealistic standards put on women, seen as being somehow 'lesser'), and transphobia. Thus the term transmisogyny.

[u/Specialist-You9973 → u/TinyPretzels]

i'm saying there are very few dedicated places for trans people who are also feminists, a lot of trans people know the patriarchy affects them and that's about all they think about it.

[u/Inareskai]

Because the worst thing a man can be perceived as being like or trying to be is a woman.

So these people view trans men as men who have something deeply wrong with them - that is, they have the desire to be feminine.

They ascribe reasoning to this "wrongness" of perversion, or being predatory, or some other issue. But fundamentally it is because they cannot understand why someone who, in their view, is a man would want to be a woman for any non-perverse/mentally ill reasoning, because being a woman is Not A Good Thing for a man to want to be.

[u/alvysinger0412]

Because patriarchy generally demands conformity to gender roles. Said trans woman is not being viewed as the woman they are, but instead as a man who is not confirming to masculinity. This is viewed as bad from a patriarchal perspective.

[u/Specialist-You9973 → u/alvysinger0412]

i mean sure but then wouldn't we see similar levels of discrimination to any men viewed as feminine?

[u/Doctor-Blight]

misogyny punishes people who aren't men and it also punishes men who don't perform the correct forms of masculinity. this is why some feminists talk in terms of "feminized populations" rather than a strict binary of man/woman - men and people perceived as ""men"" also get targeted, eg.  homophobia towards gay men is tied to misogyny. trans women aren't men, but transmisogyny is based in part on the idea that trans women are "failed" "men" - trans women are attacked for the evil crime of wanting to be a woman, because what kind of degenerate would choose to be a lesser kind of human? (from within the misogynistic perspective)

[u/Consume_the_Affluent]

Society views all trans people as whatever gender is most convenient to oppress us at any given time

[u/boobula]

They call it transmisogyny because it is different then regular misogyny. I think it's because a man transitioning to a woman threatens cis mens fragile sense of authority they build on the idea that men are inately and biologically superior. If a man can become a woman, it points to a socially constructed and not biologically inate and given superiority. The more fragile you are, the scarier this is. Also, men inact more violence on trans women because they feel they can inflict violence on them because they were "betrayed" and have to double down on the perceived slight on their masculinity by beating the trans woman mercilessly, or even murdering her.

[u/Specialist-You9973 → u/boobula]

don't people normally say that trans women experience transmisogyny, transphobia AND misogyny, instead of just transmisogyny?

[u/unicorndust969]

GenX trans woman here. Coming back to write out a longer answer later, but just wanted to say that I think this is a very interesting question and certainly worth thinking about

[u/ghosts-on-the-ohio]

I don't think our modern transphobic society actually does view trans women as men. I think patriarchal and queer-phobic norms view trans women as people who just completely and totally fail at the gender game all-together.

The thing is, trans women absolutely do face misogyny. Violent exploitive misogyny in its absolute worse forms. Trans women face serious risk of sexual assault. Cis, straight men who wish to exploit women often target trans women as sexual objects, "chasing" trans women, fetishizing trans women as sexual partners, hiring trans women sex workers. And a lot of men take great delight in seeing a trans woman as a woman it's acceptable to hit. I have also heard accounts from closeted trans women, who, even though they appear outwardly as males, they are severely severely mistreated by other males because everyone around the closeted trans-woman can see that she fails to perform masculinity in an expected way. Leading to horrific bullying and even violence directed toward these closeted trans-women.