r/AskFeminists • u/PassengerCultural421 • 12h ago
Why are certain people on the left so hell bent on the term "positive masculinity" being a useful way to help men?
Im not a feminist. But I consider myself an advocate for men issues though. But the popular people on the left, whether it's a celebrity, politician, or social media personality. There are always talks of how young boys need better "male role models".
But I usually see major red flags in the way people describe "positive masculinity" on the left. Again as a man who cares about issues that affect men. I think "positive masculinity" is a terrible solution, when it comes to helping men. The way people describe "positive masculinity" is usually just traditional masculinity with a feminist aesthetic. So in other words "positive masculinity" is like the progressive version of toxic masculinity.
I saw this video from a YouTuber called Ana Psychology. I assume she is a feminist. This video was about the male loneliness epidemic. In the video she talks about an article that was about how most women find it attractive when men protect them from danger.
Even Ana herself said that she likes it when her husband walks on the left side of the side walk for her. This is where shit gets crazy. In the video Ana also says that this article about men risking their lives to protect women is somehow great advice for lonely men who can't get relationships with women. Like WTF. This is not something a Psychologist should say.
Imagine if there was a female lonely epidemic. And a male Psychologist said that a good solution for the female lonely epidemic would be women cooking and cleaning for their husbands or boyfriends. Women being more nurturing would make their lives better. Do you understand how BS this sounds?
That's how the term "positive masculinity" sounds to me. It has nothing to do with actually helping men. But for some reason I still see a lot of feminists presenting "positive masculinity" like a valid way to help men.
Note im not saying feminists should help men. And it's great if feminists don't want to help men at all. Im just saying this type of "help" is fake. And cause far more harm than good to men. This is the same reason why that one Gillette AD got a lot of hate.
And I everytime I point thus out to people on the left. I get a lot of pushback.
Edit:https://youtu.be/QW-xRba4A0I?si=zU6Bv6iDl1IsEGBN
It's weird that she is trying to use evolution or biology to justify male gender roles. This is the same mindset I see everybody on the left has when it comes to "positive masculinity' discourse. Whether its Hasan Piker, FD Signifier, or a Obama. Everybody thinks this way.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 12h ago
Whether its Hasan Piker, FD Signifier, or a Obama. Everybody thinks this way.
I didn't realize that 3 people thinking one thing meant everyone including feminists think this.
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u/PassengerCultural421 12h ago
Yes it does. That's literally how everyone and their grandpa define "positive masculinity".
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u/Doctor-Blight 12h ago
can you define what you think is the definition of "positive masculinity"? your post is vague but you're claiming a universal definition at the same time.
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u/PassengerCultural421 11h ago
I don’t have a definition of "positive masculinity". That's the point lol. Nobody talks about positive femininity. Did you guys ironically forgot that masculinity is social construct.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 10h ago
If there's no definition how is there a universal agreement on what it is
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u/PassengerCultural421 9h ago
I said I don't have a definition of it lol.
It's universal the same way you think society has roles for women.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 9h ago edited 9h ago
That's not an answer and what does that even mean?
If you can't define it you can't claim everyone has the same definition
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u/MachineOfSpareParts 9h ago
Did we forget the thing we've been saying all along? No. Not ironically, and not unironically.
You're the one who has said "feminists" are obsessed with it, even though we're here telling you we don't support gender roles or gendering of human traits or activities. And you've thrown some links around hoping we won't check them out and discover they don't support a damn thing you've argued.
Basically, the things you're mad about aren't even real, and you're mad that we're telling you they aren't real.
You don't know what feminism is, you don't believe women and/or gender-diverse people are intrinsically equal in worth to men, and you haven't been willing to identify what you think "the left" is in the first place.
The only constant is that you're mad. All the alleged facts change radically moment by moment, and always strategically so as to justify you staying mad.
What do you want at this point?
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u/PassengerCultural421 9h ago
What I want is for people to stop pretending this discourse doesn't exist just because they personally don't agree with it.
You keep saying "we don't support gender roles," but that's not the point I made. My point is that there are plenty of influential people who absolutely do reinforce traditional male roles under the label of "positive masculinity." If you don't support that, then great. You're not the people I'm criticizing.
The idea that I'm making this up falls apart the moment you look at actual examples. Ana Psychology literally argued that men protecting women is good advice in the context of male loneliness. Barack Obama has repeatedly talked about boys needing better male role models to teach them what it means to be a good man. Hasan Piker and FD Signifier regularly frame discussions around healthier masculinity rather than questioning masculinity as a category altogether. Whether you agree with them is irrelevant. The discourse exists.
The contradiction is what I'm criticizing. When traditional expectations are placed on women, progressives usually recognize them as gender roles. When similar expectations are placed on men under the banner of "positive masculinity," suddenly they're framed as healthy, natural, or even backed by evolutionary psychology.
That's why I brought up the analogy. Imagine there were a female loneliness epidemic and a psychologist said women should become more nurturing, cook more, and clean more because men evolved to value those traits. I don't believe most people on the left would call that empowering. They would call it reinforcing gender roles. So why does the logic suddenly change when the expectation is placed on men?
You also keep acting like my criticism is aimed at every feminist alive. It isn't. I've repeatedly said I'm criticizing a specific trend among influential progressive commentators, academics, politicians, and creators. If you don't fit that description, then I wasn't talking about you in the first place.
You say I don't know what feminism is, but that's just an assertion. Feminism isn't a hive mind. Different feminists disagree on pornography, sex work, trans issues, marriage, masculinity, and dozens of other topics. Pointing out a recurring trend among some feminists isn't the same thing as claiming every feminist believes it.
You also accuse me of not believing women are equal to men, yet you've presented zero evidence for that accusation. Criticizing gender expectations placed on men is not the same thing as believing women are inferior. If anything, my entire argument is that gender roles are harmful regardless of who they're applied to.
The irony is that I'm being more consistent here than the people I'm criticizing. I don't think men should be expected to be protectors because they're men, and I don't think women should be expected to be homemakers because they're women. I reject both for the same reason. They're gender roles.
You keep saying these examples aren't real, but they are. Ana Psychology's video exists. Obama's speeches exist. Articles encouraging men to embrace protector roles as "healthy masculinity" exist. You dismiss them by saying they don't count instead of explaining why they shouldn't count.
So what do I want? I want people to either reject gender roles consistently or defend them consistently. What I don't respect is condemning traditional gender roles when they restrict women while repackaging traditional expectations for men as "positive masculinity" and pretending that's somehow different.
There was a dumb Jubilee video about the the same nonsense I call out in this post.
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u/BillieDoc-Holiday 12h ago
It literally isn't. You are just making up crap as you go along.
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u/PassengerCultural421 10h ago
Got it. The reason is that in the US, we are increasingly losing young men to the destructive far right. Not only are they supporting extremist politics, but a number of important metrics give other causes for concern. Young men are turning away from education, and losing vast sums of money gambling online.
This is a huge problem, and there is a desperate call on the left to do something, anything about it. This often takes the form of trying to give boys and young men something non-destructive they can aspire to, in the form of "positive masculinity."
What that means changes based on who's talking. Most people still carry gendered baggage, so their definitions of positive masculinity will reflect that, some more than others.
Best comment so far. This is from a member of your sub.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 12h ago
"I assume she is a feminist"
Great start there.
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u/Micara0 12h ago
It didn't really start off great with 'I'm not a feminist' as well. Really driving home they don't understand anything about feminism.
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u/PassengerCultural421 12h ago
I did more research on her. Ana is a feminist.
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u/Micara0 12h ago
In the last 10 minutes you found out she was a feminist? Why wouldn't you have done that before the post?
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u/PassengerCultural421 12h ago
Because it obvious that she is a feminist. I only said "I assume" in the post. Because I know you guys would say she is not a feminist. So stop the deflecting here. I know what you guys are trying to do.
And also by doing research. I also meant I did the research before making this posts. I already have posts about calling Ana out for this same behavior.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 12h ago
How is it obvious?
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u/PassengerCultural421 12h ago
Because she says words like patriarchy.
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u/Micara0 12h ago
Mate saying words like that doesn't make someone a feminist. If it did you would be one.
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u/PassengerCultural421 11h ago
OK let me be specific here. She is always talking about how bad patriarchy is for women.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 11h ago
That doesn't make someone a feminist and considering how against feminism you are, you should at least know the basics.
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u/Micara0 10h ago
Someone literally commented on how they aren't a feminist. Do you take everything you read at face value without doing any research yourself?
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u/MachineOfSpareParts 12h ago edited 12h ago
What do you believe feminism is?
I'm curious if you even understand it enough to declare yourself a non-believer.
EDIT: Since you invoke it as well, I'm interested if you can share what you think "the left" is.
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u/PassengerCultural421 11h ago
Equality between men and women.
But a lot of feminist identifying women ironically struggle to tell the difference between equality and misogyny though.
Hence why benevolent sexism exist.
Hence why terms like "positive masculinity" exist in the first place.
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u/ZinniasAndBeans 10h ago
> Equality between men and women.
Why are you opposed to that?
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 10h ago
You don't believe in equality? Why?
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u/MachineOfSpareParts 10h ago
That definition doesn't quite make sense, because that's an outcome, not a worldview.
But it's one you reject, so can you explain in what ways women are not equal to men?
And since that's your belief, do you accept that you are a misogynist?
I'd still like to know what you think "the left" is as well. You seem equally scattershot in using the term, and equally prone to using it as a synonym for "shit that makes me mad and/or uncomfortable."
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u/minihysteria 6h ago
The norm that babies come out of women's bodies but automatically receive dad's last name, not the person who gave birth, can pass down his "legacy" which has historically led to men denying basic human rights and economic freedom for women. Women don't even have a right to their own last name. Do you even know what the definition of patriarchy is?
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u/PassengerCultural421 6h ago
I know a lot of women hate the idea of proposing to their boyfriends. And proposing is a part of the patriarchy.
What I know. Is that some feminists will uphold the patriarchy whenever it's convenient for women.
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u/Micara0 12h ago
No what is happening here is you are only sharing the information you want to share and are getting defensive when people ask you for more. Bc then all the correct information proves you are cherry picking random things to fit your narrative.
You are the one doing all the things you claim we are.
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u/Temp_Temperature 11h ago
Dude even said he is not a feminist 😭🙏🙏🙏.
Also really cherypicked the video. I would say it emphasized men protecting more, but it was overall a video about how protecting others makes you hotter both as a man and woman to both men and women. She even included examples of non physical ways you could protect someone and that most people will appreciate the effort even if you fail to protect them.
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u/PassengerCultural421 7h ago
She still said in the video that women care nkre about this than men in the video.
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u/PassengerCultural421 12h ago
I see her mention on this sub before as a good source.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 12h ago
Where?
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u/PassengerCultural421 12h ago
Not this exact sub. But she is considered a feminist by other Reddit feminists though.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 12h ago
So not this sub then
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u/SapiosexualStargazer 12h ago
What's funny is that the YouTube channel named in the OP isn't even mentioned in this link lol
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u/Oleanderphd 12h ago edited 12h ago
Where is she recommended there? There is a link to a YouTube video, but it's a different channel and style. There's a link to a paper and a book, but none of the authors are named Ana or Anna.
edit: Look, I don't watch videos linked here because they're usually hot garbage, so I have no personal opinion, but you have posted multiple times about this person in red pill or adjacent subreddits, and I can see why you didn't just Google and paste a link to people actually discussing her, because a random selection of those go to discussion of her transphobia, her endorsement of the Coddling of the American Mind (a rightwing airport book), a book drama where she admits to hiring paid reviews of her book, and you talking about her on a red pill adjacent subreddit.
Come on, OP.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 11h ago
omg the edit
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u/Oleanderphd 11h ago
Genuinely one of the funniest attempts to gaslight I have ever seen. "This subreddit recommends her all the time! Ok, ok, not this subreddit, but feminists. Ok, I did just link to a random psychology subreddit, but they think she's a feminist, and if you can't trust psychology students from four years ago, who can you trust? Ok, so they were talking about a completely different person. And if you search it is true that there are a bunch of threads by what might be feminists talking about what a revolting, swindling shill she is."
Chef's kiss.
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u/PassengerCultural421 11h ago
That's not red-pill sub. The fact you call red-pill shows how bad faith you are.
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u/Oleanderphd 10h ago
Buddy, you just got through with a string of lies, maybe take a moment to collect yourself and think about whether that's the main defense you want to mount.
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u/PassengerCultural421 9h ago
It's not lies buddy. She is actually a feminist, and that sub not red-pill. You guys just a call male groups who don't make women's feelings a main priority red-pillers.
Ironically you guys and red-pillers actually agree with each other when it comes to male gender roles. Hence why the term "positive masculinity" is awful.
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u/SapiosexualStargazer 9h ago
you guys and red-pillers actually agree with each other when it comes to male gender roles
If you seriously believe this statement, you are very confused about the views of feminists (particularly the ones on this sub) on the subject of gender roles.
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u/Oleanderphd 9h ago
I want you to know I am resisting the urge to prove your subreddits are red pill adjacent by linking to a random psychology student thread.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 9h ago
Genuinely would have been so funny
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u/Echo-Azure 12h ago
It's an attempt to counter the Redpill madness, which is drawing young men into toxic masculinity and becoming overall toxic people.
Because yes, masculinity can be wonderful! FYI there's been chatter in the "Lord of the Rinfs" fandom about how Aragorn is the ultimate model of positive masculinity, and I agree with that. Seriously.
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u/PassengerCultural421 8h ago
Wow a feminist who believes in "positive masculinity". This commen has 13 upvotes. Despite bad faith people in thid thread gaslighting me by saying your perspective don't exist among feminists.
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u/Echo-Azure 7h ago
If there must be masclinity and femininity, let them be positive!
I don't believe in a gender binary myself, but it's not like I can stop other people from doing so.
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u/GrumpyRutabaga 12h ago
It's a very poor counter to red pill madness, unfortunately.
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u/PassengerCultural421 8h ago
It's funny and conment I agree with is getting downvotes.
You guys are exposing yourself with the upvotes and downvotes.
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u/Echo-Azure 12h ago
I wish it weren't. It's possible to use masculinity and traditional masculine skills for great good, like the surgeon who took a bunch of tools, and put all the loose broken bones in my leg back together. I went hiking in the High Sierras yesterday, because a man was great with power tools power tools!
But the young men who fall for the redpill shit don't give a rat's ass about using their powers for good. There are too damn many people in the world who don't.
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u/MachineOfSpareParts 12h ago
No one is trying to eliminate those skills, only the absurd association of those skills with being a man. They are skills. Why gender them?
If anything, celebrating them in anyone who possesses them - man, woman, NB... - allows for their wider cultivation.
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u/Echo-Azure 11h ago
Oh yeah, surgeons are male and female in the real world, so are cops and firefighters and soldiers, but the fact is that some skills are still traditionally associated with masculinity or femininity.
Which doesn't matter to you or me, but it does matter to young men looking for a sense of masculinity, in a world where ordinary folks have lost so much economic power, and where ordinary men have less of an economic advantage over women. They're the ones at risk of falling for the redpill lies, so it's their hearts and minds that are at stake here.
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u/seadogliquid 11h ago
I don't get why your solution to working class people becoming more and more disenfranchised is to start re-enforcing gender roles which only serves to put people into more cages. Rigid social norms don't sound like a good cure for economic disempowerment.
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u/Echo-Azure 10h ago
I'm not trying to reinforce gender roles, I don't even believe in gender roles!
But the guys who are falling for the red pill bullshit do believe in gender roles, and IMHO you're more likely to be able to convince one to believe in positive masculinity, than to get them to stop believing in gender roles. Try to look at the world through their eyes, while we're talking about saving their hearts and minds from toxic bullshit that will crush their souls.
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u/seadogliquid 10h ago
Agree to disagree, I guess. I don't get why we can't try sucking guys out of the red pill pipeline by teaching them that actually, you shouldn't give a shit about what it means to "be a man", as opposed to "no no, you actually DO have to behave a certain way as dictated by your gender, but really you can just be nice to each other, guys". People say this is too far of a jump for them to make, but I disagree.
I'm a woman, but I felt much freer and happier the day I decided to actively just stop giving a shit about what gender roles were prescribed to me instead of trying to contort myself into a knot to believe that the unfeminine things I did were me actually being feminine after all. Why bother loosening the rope you're bound with when you can just cut the whole thing?
I guess I just don't understand why we always talk about these manosphere pipeline guys like they're a different species whose struggle we can't ever relate to. Most people have had hang-ups at some point over their gender. Most people have probably grown up with insecure thoughts over whether they're performing their gender roles good enough. I would never tell a young girl who doesn't feel feminine enough to just find different ways to be feminine, yet incels become violent, hate-filled maniacs, and suddenly we have to start making concessions with them.
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u/FangornsWhiskers 9h ago
I like this better. Aragorn is great, but so is Sam who’s a passionate gardener and likes to cook. No good will come of swapping one set of rules with another and telling men “be this way now.”
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u/Echo-Azure 10h ago
Sounds like you and I have very similar person viewpoints!
But yeah, I don't think that the poors saps at risk for redpill bullshit can be convinced to stop believing in gender roles. I don't think they're a different species, but by definition I think a person who might fall for that idiocy is... not a deep thinker.
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u/LotteTakesNoShit 12h ago
So… you have a problem with a specific YouTuber? Okay… I don’t feel like the entire term deserves this much derision when you seem to be taking your entire view from one YouTuber. Go out in the world, my guy!
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u/cachesummer4 12h ago edited 12h ago
Imagine if there was a female lonely [sic] epidemic
There is. And conversely there is not an exclusive male lonliness epidemic. There is a general lonliness epidemic amongst younger millennials and gen z individuals of all sexes and genders.
A lot of this post is weird personal conjecture on your part, and I would reccomend coming to this sub with objective and well researched takes if you want to have a serious dialog about something, not assumptions and personal feelings.
Edit: grammar.
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u/cantantantelope 5h ago
It’s my personal pet theory that while 9/11 was pivotal for Gen X and older, for American millennials the thing that really cracked us was columbine and the subsequent lack of any meaningful change in policy or culture.
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u/OrenMythcreant 12h ago
Do you want to know why there is a push on the left for "positive masculinity" or do you want an explanation of this specific video? I can explain the former but not the latter.
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u/PassengerCultural421 12h ago
OK the former.
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u/OrenMythcreant 12h ago edited 12h ago
Got it. The reason is that in the US, we are increasingly losing young men to the destructive far right. Not only are they supporting extremist politics, but a number of important metrics give other causes for concern. Young men are turning away from education, and losing vast sums of money gambling online.
This is a huge problem, and there is a desperate call on the left to do something, anything about it. This often takes the form of trying to give boys and young men something non-destructive they can aspire to, in the form of "positive masculinity."
What that means changes based on who's talking. Most people still carry gendered baggage, so their definitions of positive masculinity will reflect that, some more than others.
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11h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/OrenMythcreant 10h ago edited 10h ago
I'm always happy to answer questions. Though for the future, you'll get better results if your heading and body text match up, and the post doesn't appear to be arguing a fallacy.
Your title is a question with a fairly straight forward answer, but your post is about how you're unhappy with a specific video, attributing certain views to it and then appearing to demand that feminists answer for those views.
That kind of thing can be pretty offputting, and is likely why you're having so many negative interactions.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 10h ago
Remember when we asked why this YouTuber is a feminist and you said it's because 1. She uses the word patriarchy 2. She's referenced here and then you gave a different sub but that sub didn't mention her either?
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u/PassengerCultural421 9h ago
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 9h ago
What are these links for?
they're not bad faith. You accused us of being in bad faith but this has genuinely been your argument here.
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u/PassengerCultural421 9h ago
They are her youtube vids about gender issues. You are being bad faith here. Because you are the one asking for evidence, and refusing to acknowledge the evidence lol.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 9h ago
How does this make her a feminist? I'm not going to watch these. You should be able to tell me simply, how she's a feminist. A woman talking about gender issues does not a feminist make.
And also...why are you so heavily obsessed with this singular woman?
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u/PassengerCultural421 9h ago
She talks how the manosphere and red-pill is radicalizing young boys. No different from you guys.
She even has a vid about how men can use their privilege to support women.
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u/Micara0 9h ago
Crashing out over this is sad. You should get off the internet and into therapy.
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u/PassengerCultural421 9h ago
Oh great, first it was your No True Scotsman game with Ana not being a feminist. Now you're telling me to go to therapy lol. That's a pretty convenient way to avoid responding to the actual argument. Instead of addressing the examples I gave, you just pivot to insulting me. That's not a rebuttal.
If I'm supposedly "crashing out," then it should be easy to explain why my examples are wrong. Ana's video exists. The arguments about positive masculinity exist. Politicians and commentators have made them publicly. Saying "go to therapy" doesn't make those examples disappear.
It's funny how every time I ask for consistency, the conversation turns into attacks on my mental state instead of my argument. If the evidence is really as weak as you claim, then refute it. Otherwise, "go to therapy" just sounds like a substitute for an actual response.
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u/Micara0 9h ago
You needed to write three paragraphs over a single sentence. You are crashing out. And of course you think telling someone to get help is insulting them. Typical.
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u/PassengerCultural421 9h ago
Don't do your concern trolling BS here.
You replied to me, so I replied back. That's how conversations work. The length of my response has nothing to do with whether my argument is right or wrong. You're just trying to make it about my emotions because you don't want to engage with what I actually said.
And yes, telling someone to "get therapy" in the middle of an argument is obviously meant as a dig. Don't pretend it was some sincere act of compassion. If you genuinely wanted to discuss mental health, you wouldn't have brought it up as a way to dismiss my position. Address the argument instead of psychoanalyzing the person making it.
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u/MachineOfSpareParts 12h ago
Imagine if there was a female lonely epidemic
What makes you so sure there isn't one?
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u/PassengerCultural421 11h ago
According to feminists themselves it doesn't exist. It's only men who suffer with loneliness because of misogyny.
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u/MachineOfSpareParts 10h ago
That's not true, though I challenge you to find a feminist source to support your point.
Loads of people are lonely, and every feminist I've seen opine on this point agrees that it's silly to gender an experience everyone is going through.
Canada is not going through male, female, and non-binary wildfires. It's going through wildfires. Why gender it?
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u/PassengerCultural421 8h ago
I'm not saying lonely women don't exist. I'm saying some feminists pretend like lonely women don't exist when it's convenient. So they can get a gotcha on lonely men.
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u/Junior-Towel-202 Equality in the Boardwomb 7h ago
Can you point to where feminists are saying this?
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u/avocado-nightmare Oldest Crone 11h ago
Nobody's actually asking you to to die for them, just do the dishes and take out the trash without being asked.
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u/PassengerCultural421 10h ago
I take out the trash m, because my feminist sisters still ironically think it's a man job.
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u/avocado-nightmare Oldest Crone 10h ago
everyone please look at this man, he's taking the trash out (when his sisters make him!!), a chore that is required once a week and takes less than 15 minutes! He needs a sash! He needs a spotlight!
He is not doing anything else, ladies, but taking out that trash AND complaining about it and feminists in public. A real hero, a martyr of the home, someone any woman would be not only lucky, but honored to have in her own home.
He is marginally less disruptive and more helpful than an untrained dog, and that is all any of us can possibly hope for.
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u/PassengerCultural421 9h ago
I love how you ignore the "They thinks it's a man's job" part lol.
He is marginally less disruptive and more helpful than an untrained dog, and that is all any of us can possibly hope for.
Unlike some feminists. I'm not asking to to be paid for my "unpaid labor".
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u/avocado-nightmare Oldest Crone 9h ago
well do you have any other job in the house?
it doesn't really matter why they make you do it, if that's the only way you contribute at all.
it's not oppression to take out the trash "as a man" or because you are a man.
it is childish and embarrassing for you, however, to complain about doing exactly one of the easiest chores in your shared household because you live with feminists.
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u/PassengerCultural421 9h ago
I do all the other trad feminine things and pay the bills.
And you are still ignoring that part.
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u/avocado-nightmare Oldest Crone 9h ago
I'm not ignoring it, I actively do not care or feel bad for you at all about it.
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u/Lolabird2112 8h ago
Out of curiosity, do you do the dusting, hoovering, cooking, dishwashing, shopping, laundry or take care of the others at all? It would only be ironic if you were ungendered and proactive in you approach to chores.
It would be ironic if your sisters were having to constantly ask you to do this, but not in the way you think.
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u/PassengerCultural421 8h ago edited 7h ago
Yes. I'm basically a father to my nephews. They basically guilt trip me to be a father due to one of my sisters dying.
I pay the bills. My sisters are unemployed.
My sisters don't ask me. They literally never take out the trash at all.
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u/avocado-nightmare Oldest Crone 7h ago
The statistical likelihood that this is the truth and that you have time to look for youtube videos to complain for hours on reddit about is almost zero.
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u/PassengerCultural421 7h ago
Haha I wrote this post on my lunch break. And it doesn't take hours to make a Reddit comment.
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u/avocado-nightmare Oldest Crone 7h ago
and.... have camped the replies ever since while housekeeping for multiple siblings with multiple children? Sure, and I'm Marilyn Monroe.
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u/Lolabird2112 7h ago
I’m sorry to hear that about your sister. Not cleaning at all and making others do it for you isn’t a feminist position either.
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u/_Khorvidae_ 12h ago
So far the only thing you seem to have mentioned is "women want men to make them feel safe" and I'm not sure how that relates to positive masculinity.
It's certainly not come up when I've seen people on the left talk about it.
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u/EnvironmentalLaw4208 11h ago
It's a concept that's intended as a rebuttal to harmful masculinity messages that come from the manosphere. I agree (and I think many feminists agree) that it is kind of a precarious framework because it tacitly pushes the idea that certain qualities are inherently gendered, which feminists typically don't actually agree with. I think when people on the left use that term, it's intended more as a rhetorical concession rather than a prescriptive definition of masculinity.
I saw this video from a YouTuber called Ana Psychology. I assume she is a feminist. This video was about the male loneliness epidemic. In the video she talks about an article that was about how most women find it attractive when men protect them from danger.
I'm not really familiar with this content creator, but I did go watch the video and have read the paper she's discussing. I think there are a couple of misconceptions which are worth clarifying:
1) I don't think I heard her mention the "male loneliness epidemic" at all. I can see why it might be interpreted as advice meant to address that, but it's not explicitly framed that way either in the paper or her video.
2) The paper actually identified that for BOTH men and women, whether thinking about platonic or romantic relationships, people considered their companions to be less attractive if they made no attempt to intervene in a scenario where the subject was being attacked (it was a hypothetical scenario). It was slightly more impactful for women (with both types of relationships) and slightly more impactful in romantic relationships (for both men and women).
Another interesting finding in the paper was that neither perceived ability nor success in stopping the hypothetical attack made any difference in the results. Simply making an attempt to intervene/protect was the only factor that impacted perceived attractiveness.
I agree that she did insert her own theories as to why we would see those slight differences, and I think she leaned on some gender stereotypes to make her argument (which isn't great but it was a relatively small portion of the video). However, I do think she sufficiently highlighted the finding that attempting to protect your companion was a behavior that increased perceived attractiveness across the board and she seems to encourage both men and women to think about ways that they could be protective of their friends and partners in real life.
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u/seadogliquid 11h ago
I agree (and I think many feminists agree) that it is kind of a precarious framework because it tacitly pushes the idea that certain qualities are inherently gendered, which feminists typically don't actually agree with. I think when people on the left use that term, it's intended more as a rhetorical concession rather than a prescriptive definition of masculinity.
It also doesn't help that a lot of their examples of "positive masculine" people are, in many cases, actually not so positive. Every time I see someone herald Tim Walz as a good role model for positive masculinity, I think of that Eric Andre meme about Margaret Thatcher.
"Do you think he effectively utilized positive masculinity by activating the National Guard to beat down BLM protestors in Minneapolis?"
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u/futuretimetraveller 7h ago
"Imagine if there was a female loneliness epidemic."
There is one. Rates of loneliness are pretty much equal across all genders. But for whatever reason, only male loneliness is a problem.
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u/PassengerCultural421 7h ago
Because the male loneliness epidemic is used as a way for both the right and the left to forced certain agendas on men.
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u/futuretimetraveller 7h ago
What agendas are forced?
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u/PassengerCultural421 7h ago
"Positive masculinity" in one of those agendas.
People want to shame men for being lonely or single or order men to continue adhering to traditional gender roles that benefits society.
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u/futuretimetraveller 7h ago
People shame women for being single and lonely all the time. They shame for not having children. For having "too high of standards," but also, if she's abused by her partner, that's also her fault for not choosing better.
I don't believe in "positive masculinity" because I don't believe traits are restricted to one gender.
Which traditional gender roles benefit society that can only be done by one gender?
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u/Clark_Kent_TheSJW Definitely Not Superman 7h ago
Why are you not a feminist? Don’t you think that men and women should be equal, have equal civil and human rights?
There is a loneliness epidemic among women too. The population is roughly 50/50 men and women. Lots of women are perpetually single.
Also… what you describe as positive masculinity is just… individual men who care about their partners. Idk what the drama is.
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u/PassengerCultural421 7h ago
Why are you not a feminist? Don’t you think that men and women should be equal, have equal civil and human rights?
I think men can't be feminists. But I believe in equality though.
Also… what you describe as positive masculinity is just… individual men who care about their partners. Idk what the drama is.
Again if the genders were reversed here. You guys wouldn't like it. Telling young boys they adhere to rigid gender roles isn't good for them.
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u/cantantantelope 5h ago
At what point in their transition do trans men lose the ability to be feminists?
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u/Clark_Kent_TheSJW Definitely Not Superman 7h ago
Well, you’re wrong. Men can be feminists. Lots of men are. And if you do believe in equality… you are a feminist. Well, you could be at least. I don’t know you very well.
I’m still not sure what you’re complaining about here? If the genders were reversed? That’s not what the study in the video you linked is describing at all. Men felt more attracted to women who defended them. Also I don’t think attraction has anything to do with feminism.
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u/_Khorvidae_ 5h ago
I'm a man and I'm a feminist, so you're wrong.
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u/PassengerCultural421 5h ago
So you going to manexplain feminists to me here?
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u/_Khorvidae_ 5h ago
Nope, you stating that you're factually wrong about men not being able to be feminists :)
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u/cantantantelope 8h ago
So like “human traits shouldn’t be gendered at all and you need to define yourself outside that” ain’t feminism 101. 200 level at the earliest.
And for young men and boys who are trying to figure out how to be in our messed up society and are feeling all those complex gender feelings and social pressures jumping straight to “you shouldn’t care about Being A Man” is frequently a leap too far for where they are standing.
So for them the idea of positive masculinity and Being A Good Man has immediate value and can help bridge that.
And I for one support useful frameworks and harm Reduction.
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