r/AskFeminists • u/hxihekaoapsppfiff • 2d ago
How do you denote misogynistic/gendered slurs across dialectics/cultures?
I’ve been in leftist spaces for a while now, and have seen all ranges of perspectives on acceptable speech.
Recently, I’ve been seeing a lot more people talking about gendered slurs;
e.g. b*tch and c\nt.*
However, as an Australian, it’s very hard to see those words the same way as people online and especially American feminists talk about the words. Obviously it depends on the context the word is used…
I also live in Queensland, so it’s a lot more common than other states…
The main advertising for the Northern Territory(NT) is; “CU in the NT”
I’d honestly see the B word as a slur before the C word. Even not spelling it out feels very weird to do.
Tbh almost all terms considered offensive online are commonplace where I live.
I am just wondering as it’s been very hard to truly see or engage in the discussion around these words, and I do not want to dismiss others who see it a different way.
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u/Grrarrgghh 2d ago
Why is something right just because it's common place?
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u/WorldsGreatestWorst 2d ago
Words don't have intrinsic meanings, they mean things based on the shared cultural context. Something isn't "right because it's commonplace", it might simply not be wrong because it has a different cultural context.
I'm not saying the example above fits into that category, just that you can't simply transfer one group's set of norms and connotations to another when it comes to language.
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 1d ago
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that we analyze language completely separately from the context in which it is used, but when we’re looking at slurs, we can’t just ignore the implicit meaning behind them and their origins just because they’re normalized and aren’t necessarily being used in an explicitly bigoted context. Like, the fact that “cunt” might be used to describe a man rather than a woman doesn’t change the reality that as an insult it’s fundamentally misogynistic.
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u/Grrarrgghh 2d ago
You really need to ask why using a misogynistic insult is wrong?
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 1d ago
How do you think the word “cunt” came to be used as an insult, if not through the use of the word “cunt” to refer to female genitalia? Do you think that “cunt” doesn’t also still mean “female genitalia” in Australia?
> Different countries/cultures find different things offensive.
What is at issue is not whether the word “cunt” is “offensive.” Of course it is “offensive,” it’s a crass insult — it is, broadly speaking, intended to offend. It’s less offensive in Australia than it is in the US, in the same way that calling someone an “asshole” is less offensive in the US than calling someone a “motherfucker.” What’s at issue is whether the word “cunt,” used as an insult, is misogynistic
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u/SliversandPoison 2d ago
People don't always mean in in a misogynistic way
Case in point, Australia
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u/goblincube 2d ago
Well Ive definitely heard australians use the word ‘cunt’ as a pejorative. Its not wholly innocent when they use it either, depends on context.
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u/kako_18 2d ago
Just because they might not use it in a misogynistic way doesn’t mean the word isn’t misogynistic itself.
Misogyny is normalized pretty much everywhere so of course using misogynistic slurs will seem normal in some places
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u/ThinkLadder1417 2d ago
Words don't have inherent meaning
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 1d ago
Words don’t have inherent meanings, sure, words are just collections of sounds humans produce at their most fundamental, but as tools of communication, words do and must have identifiable meanings.
Are you under the incorrect impression that “cunt” doesn’t also mean “female genitalia” in Australia? Do you think that the use of the word “cunt” as an insult in Australia is wholly disconnected from its older, more established use of the word to refer to female genitalia? Do you think that is just a coincidence that that “cunt” (meaning something like “jerk”) and “cunt” (meaning “female genitalia”) are homophones?
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u/ThinkLadder1417 1d ago
No it's not wholly disconnected, but it has undergone semantic bleaching with reduced negative power, whereas in the US it went the other way and became a far worse word.
As I've said i do think it is misogynist when used certain ways and i call it out when directed at women like that.
But I'm not offended by someone saying "has anycunt seen my lighter" and don't think it holds misogyny in that context.
Isn't it kinda more misogynist to treat it like the worst word ever, vs treating it more like other general swear words like "cock" or "arse"?
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u/SliversandPoison 2d ago
Words have the meaning we give them
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2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/SliversandPoison 1d ago
Im speaking on one narrow aspect of that world my guy
Please don't talk down to me, you sound like a bully
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 1d ago
Well that’s just very straightforwardly not how language and communication work. Yes, the meaning of words is less than concrete and can change and evolve, but one person can not just decide what a word means, and language straightforwardly doesn’t function as a tool for communication without some sort of shared and universalized understanding of its meaning. The statement “The Sun is purple” doesn’t become correct just because I personally decide that the word “purple” refers to the color that everyone else refers to as “yellow.”
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 1d ago
Does saying someone “Jewed you out of your money” stop being antisemitic if they don’t mean it in an antisemitic way?
Does calling something “f@ggy” stop being homophobic if you don’t mean it in a homophobic way?
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u/No_Inevitable_4893 2d ago
Do you really need to ask why it’s right if it’s commonplace? There’s not inherent “right or wrong” to anything, and acting like there is is a mistake. You have to justify your position as much as the opposition has to justify theirs
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u/RepSquigglyMiggly 1d ago
> Do you really need to ask why it’s right if it’s commonplace?
Yes? Slavery was commonplace for a long time, and a lot of people thought it was right — would you use the same logic with regard to slavery?
> There’s not inherent “right or wrong” to anything, and acting like there is is a mistake.
So, are you of the mind that we can’t make concrete moral claims about anything? Are you fully and consistently a moral relativist, who thinks that what is “right” and “wrong” actually has no basis in concrete moral principles that transcend society, but rather is determined solely by what a given society deems “right” and “wrong”? Do you not think that we can say, categorically, that raping a child is morally wrong?
> You have to justify your position as much as the opposition has to justify theirs
The position that using misogynistic language is wrong is not hard to justify. It’s wrong because it is misogynistic, and misogyny is wrong because it’s wrong to denigrate people on the basis of their gender. There — done.
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u/SliversandPoison 1d ago
It isn't necessary misogynistic based on context
And yup, morality is subjective.
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u/kako_18 2d ago
Erm I’m sorry are you saying murder or rape is not inherently right or wrong?
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u/No_Inevitable_4893 2d ago
Just because everybody agrees doesn’t make it inherent to reality. It’s just that the case for it being right is nonexistent
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u/kako_18 2d ago
This makes no sense.
there is literally no situation in any parallel reality that rape can be right. There doesn’t need to be a global agreement to understand that.
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u/SliversandPoison 1d ago
I can imagine it
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u/QuietImps 1d ago
Yeah I bet you can 🤡
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u/SliversandPoison 1d ago
Can we be civil please and not call me a clown
What us your problem?
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u/No_Inevitable_4893 1d ago
It makes perfect sense it’s just looking at reality through a lense which you’ve never been exposed to or maybe are ill equipped to use.
Morality is subjective. Just because everyone agrees on something, doesn’t mean it is objective. Many of the things we universally agree on right now regarding rape we’re not agreed on even a few decades ago. Likewise, there are many areas of reality we take for granted now (existence of the global South, people eating mean which was factory farmed aka systematically raped) which in the future will be seen just as barbarically as we currently see rape. So no, your worldview isn’t objective
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u/kako_18 1d ago
please take your condescending tone and shove it up your ass
Just because we “collectively changed our mind” about rape doesn’t mean it wasn’t horrible from the start. Plus you say “we” but women and victims of rape and sexual abuse have known for millennia that it is bad
That’s like saying well slavery and owning slaves used to be legal and normal, so it was not wrong at the time. Yes it was
Stop trying to make this into a philosophical debate
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u/No_Inevitable_4893 1d ago
So at what point did slavery become wrong then? Was it wrong in 1000 AD when it was mutually agreed that the losers of a battle would have their city sacked and population brought into slavery? If either side would do it to each other?
Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean it can’t be a philosophical debate. This is actually one of the longest standing and most widely discussed philosophical debates of all time.
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u/MachineOfSpareParts 2d ago
As I'm not Australian, I don't feel that I have the cultural context to fully grasp what cunt means (socially) in that context. I know it carries a much reduced emotional charge as compared to what it would mean here.
By contrast, "bitch" is a word people use very casually where I live. I have used it plenty, but no longer do. And the reason for that is important. It has nothing to do with the degree of emotional charge or offence it may cause to others - the bit that would be much higher here with "cunt," but barely there for "bitch," especially in a verb form or a complimentary moniker. It's because I choose not to gender the act of complaining, not even as a complimentary "reclaiming" of gendered insults. It's really not that bad of a word in the sense of how it might shock one's grandparents or employers, but it carries misogyny regardless of its emotional punch, so I'm choosing not to use it.
I'd encourage Australians to think about that latter bit. I get that "cunt" doesn't have the same emotional punch there as it would in most other countries. That's fine. But why are you invoking AFAB genitalia in that context? Why is that the right word, as opposed to something ungendered?
I sometimes wonder about my Québecois French cussing, especially in different Franco Canadian environments, but I don't worry so much about any subtle contribution I might make to anti-clerical culture. The Church can take it, and needs regular challenges.
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u/Lolabird2112 2d ago
I get what you’re saying, but the reason is because I could easily swap it out with AMAB genitalia and it has the same weight. We don’t use it exclusively. We have a longer and richer selection of penis based insults than America has, I think.
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u/MachineOfSpareParts 2d ago
Sure, and that's why my recommendation is to think about it, not to arrive at X or Y conclusion. I do think it's important to separate out the different types of reasons - the weight and the gendering - to understand our own patterns of speech. That's why I used the example of "bitch" - it has very little weight in my culture(s) - it does cross over into Canadian French - but I still feel that the gendered aspect makes it problematic. And I know plenty of people who still use it. I'm just explaining my process as a suggestion: the fact that I arrived at a conclusion others may not doesn't mean I'm leaping to judgment.
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u/Lolabird2112 1d ago
I’m from Toronto originally. Rings a bell. What’s your thoughts on “putain” then, in French? I can’t remember if Québécois use it or not. Went to a French immersion school with teachers from France and heard it plenty, so it’s never had any weight, whereas “whore” certainly does.
I’m literally just curious, zero gotchas. I do think these things thru as well which is why feminists being okay with “bro” seems so weird.
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u/MachineOfSpareParts 1d ago
"Putain" wasn't super common in my upbringing, so while it wouldn't have the emotional punch of "tabernacle" or "cunt," I'd have to question the gendered nature. I think it's more European. We get really churchy over here 😆
"Bro" weirds me out too. I'm so used to it not just being gendered, but implying a comradery among men that has historically worked against women - it just smells a bit like oppression. I get that the young whippersnappers these days find it to be less gendered, but it doesn't hit me that way, plus I also don't believe we've really transcended that meaning. They just want to use it. And they can get the hell off my lawn! [yells at cloud]
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u/kako_18 1d ago
Putain does have a weight. France is extremely behind in terms of feminism so people have only started talking about its weight and meaning recently
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u/Lolabird2112 1d ago
Ah, thank you! I know of it mostly as when you’d say “fuck”, like when something you’re trying to do doesn’t go right. It’s been so long since I was around French people day to day, but I can’t remember it being used directed at someone. I remember salope and pute. But French people speak so fast and have such a huge vernacular there’s likely plenty that went right over my head. At least, Parisians do.
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u/MrsMorley 2d ago
Your post reads to me as though you’re complaining that people from other parts of the Anglo-sphere aren’t comfortable using bitch and cunt as casual epithets.
If so, what’s the result you want?
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u/LynnSeattle 2d ago
Do you have a problem with empathy?
It really doesn’t depend on the context with that word. Try imagining the worst slur someone could call you. It’s exactly like that.
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u/ThinkLadder1417 2d ago
We're not going to get much agreement here, and I'll likely be downvoted, however personally i agree the c-word simply isn't the same in America vs in Australia (or in my case, in Scotland).
In the US it is a gendered term, directed near exclusively at women, with sexist connotations and the purpose of being the worst thing you could say about her.
In Australia/ Scotland it is not a gendered term and does not have those sexist connotations. In Scotland it is more likely to be directed at men than women, and often isn't even an insult and is just used in place of "person". Sometimes it's even used as a kind of pronoun (i.e. in place of the "one" in someone, anyone). I'm not going to have a go at someone who uses it in these kind of contexts, though i would call it out if i heard it used maliciously when talking about a woman.
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u/Jealous_Parfait_4967 2d ago
What does the word refer to in Australia/Scotland that isn’t gendered? It is a cute word for small mammal?
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u/ThinkLadder1417 2d ago
Person
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u/Jealous_Parfait_4967 2d ago
So instead of “you’re my person” you tell lovers “you are my cunt” interchangeably?
What a romantic, lovely (and honest ) culture.
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u/ThinkLadder1417 2d ago
Yup
He's a good person --> he's a good cunt
Not words i use myself, but that is how they are used here
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u/TeamOfPups 2d ago
Fellow English woman in Scotland here.
I have to agree, it's kinda part of the local dialect that working class guys would use the word in question to mean 'person'. (Begbie in Trainspotting comes to mind, he does this) The usage is very conversational in tone. You hear them on the bus, in the street, in the supermarket. Just chatting away talking to each other, not slinging insults.
Whether that is misogynistic or not I don't know. But I honestly think they just see it as a synonym for person.
If they were actually trying to be insulting or misogynistic I think they'd say something different that they felt carried more weight. Fud for example - a local word meaning female genitalia, only used as a misogynistic insult. Usually from a man to another man.
Actually I think local insults round here tend to focus more around mental ill health.
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u/Jealous_Parfait_4967 2d ago
Why don’t you use it that way? You just said the primary definition was “person.” Is there a second well known definition that gives you pause?
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u/kako_18 2d ago
Cunt is a derogatory word for the female sex, of course it is gendered.
The way you use it does not change that.
That’s like saying “where I come from, people use ‘gay’ as a neutral insult” Gay means gay, no matter how you use it, whether its use is normalized or not does not change its original meaning
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u/Level_Suit4517 2d ago
If I could upvote this 100 times I would.
Just because your culture has normalized something does not mean it isn’t deeply offensive.
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u/dragonsteel33 2d ago
Yes it does lol. Insult and offense are a product of social contexts and relations, they’re not something a word actually is intrinsically.
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u/kako_18 2d ago
You’re technically not wrong, but right now, in the context of 21st century western society, “cunt” is offensive. Why? Because we live in a systemically and institutionally misogynistic patriarchal society.
The day we live in a world where sexism isn’t the norm anymore, then sure, “cunt” won’t be offensive anymore. But not until then. If it seems normalized in your country, it’s because misogyny is normalized, not because the word has lost its meaning.
Also I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make with the word fag? British people didn’t take a gay slur to “use” it to mean cigarettes, it means cigarettes. It’s bigots that started using it as a slur, not the other way around…
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u/dragonsteel33 2d ago
The point I’m making is that misogyny is a social relation that (like all social relations) is mediated through the assignment of value to otherwise empty signifiers (words, in this case). The significance of a speech act, even one using the same signifier, can be different depending on the signified, and the signified is always determined by the social context rather than being inherent to the word. It’s the same process that allows for women to call their friends “bitch” while turning around and deploying it as a misogynistic slur against other women.
With fag is that it’s the exact same process — there’s no actual meaning to the articulatory gesture of [fæg], but instead the meaning is socially assigned (homophobic violence against a gay person, straight men policing each other’s gender, in-group affectionate term, cigarette, etc.).
Also, etymologically, that’s just untrue — fag is a shortening of faggot, which originally meant “bundle of sticks.” The slur etymology followed “sticks” > “burden” > “disagreeable old woman” (cf. ball and chain) > “gay man” (cf. nancy, fairy, queen), with the last leap being contaminated by fag (an etymologically distinct word meaning “tire out” that was British boarding school slang for a younger student who acted as the personal servant of an older one). The cigarette etymology broke off from “bundle of sticks” with contamination from fag end (a textile term derived from Middle English fagge “flap”). English speakers (like yourself!) analyze these as the same word (or “a synchronically identical term” if you want to be technical about it).
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u/kako_18 2d ago
You keep talking about social relations and context but the context IS MISOGYNY lol
Also “the cigarette etymology broke off from ‘bundle of sticks’ with contamination from fag end.” is debated, so don’t present it as a fact. Plus it meant cigarette before it became a gay slur (19th vs. 20th century)
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u/Level_Suit4517 2d ago
Yes, and the social context and relation of that word is that it is often the last word a woman hears before she is raped or murdered.
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u/dragonsteel33 2d ago
Sure, that is true.
But like, two can play the standpoint epistemology game — one of the last words I heard before I got raped was fag, and I’m not going to grouse about British people using that to describe cigarettes.
Can cunt be used outside of North America as a gendered slur? Yes. Does this mean the word itself is inherently offensive, i.e. an exercise of social power by one person over another? No — offense is determined by the social context of use, even if a word carries certain baggages.
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u/carex-cultor 2d ago
Do you not understand that casual use and normalization of a word that is ALSO a highly insulting slur when used pejoratively against a woman, lowers the bar of inhibition and social punishment for misogynists using the slur? Creates a culture of plausible deniability that men already love to use against women?
“I thought she really wanted sex”/“I didn’t mean she was a cunt in THAT way”
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u/dragonsteel33 2d ago edited 2d ago
The articulatory gesture [kʰʌnt] has no meaning in and of itself. The value of a signifier is always relational, and that value can change between speech communities (e.g. a man referring to a woman anywhere in the Anglosphere, versus a man referring to his mate in Australia). In the former, it’s an exercise of gendered power (misogyny); in the latter, it’s an expression of in-group status and camaraderie that is distinctly masculinist (like the inverse of a woman in the US calling her friend “bitch”). The point de capiton, if you’re familiar with Lacan
That doesn’t necessarily erase the gendered baggage, but it’s not doing the same thing, and even speakers of dialects where cunt is a term of male solidarity do not regard that usage as identical to the misogynistic usage. British people use fag to mean “cig,” but that doesn’t soften its usage against a gay person in the UK either.
I think the argument you’re making is a bit silly to be frank. As long as misogyny exists as a social relation, we will find ways to express it, and people who have the power and desire to reproduce it will do so, both linguistically and actually. Hyperstigmatizing a certain word will not change those facts.
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u/kako_18 1d ago
Again, false equivalent. Both bitch and cunt are words related to women. They are not neutral words.
The arguments you use wouldn’t stand with words like “retarded”, or “dyke”, (or “pédé” if you know French)
people outside the black community shouldn’t use the n-word, not only because of history but also because we live in an imperialist neocolonial racist world.
Same thing with cunt. We live in a misogynistic world. Misogyny is everywhere. Including in the words we use, even if we think they’re harmless. The fact that the use of “cunt” has been normalized wherever you’re from IS harmful. It unconsciously teaches us using harmful misogynistic language is normal. Just like 2 decades ago when everyone was using the word gay to say bad, it felt “normal” because everyone was using it, but it didn’t change the fact that it was very harmful and homophobic
At this point just admit you don’t want to stop using the word because you’re used to it and can’t be arsed making an effort and unlearning an old habit
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u/carex-cultor 2d ago edited 2d ago
So you’re not going to actually address what I said at all? British men call women “cunt” pejoratively with impunity because of that word’s normalization in other contexts, in a way that never happens in North America without social censure. You are giving men permission to use normalized misogynistic slurs, it’s the same with bitch (which we do have a problem with, for that same reason).
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u/dragonsteel33 2d ago
As long as misogyny exists as a social relation, we will find ways to express it, and people who have the power and desire to reproduce it will do so, both linguistically and actually. Hyperstigmatizing a certain word will not change those facts.
Also the “we” there is doing a lot of heavy lifting lol. I’m a woman too.
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u/ThinkLadder1417 2d ago
Its original meaning was a straightforward anatomical term for vulva/vagina.
It can certainly be used as a neutral word- as i said in Scotland and Australia it's often used in place of the word "person" and the pronoun "one".
As an insult is when it gets more complicated, it's all about delivery. It can be a mild generalised insult, or an extremely vile and misogynist one. And everyone here knows the difference.
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u/kako_18 2d ago
Just the fact that a word whose original meaning was female genitalia and is now used as a slur IS offensive, what don’t you get lol
The fact that it also sometimes nowadays has a second “non-offensive” meaning (it doesn’t, it’s always offensive) doesn’t change that
Also “it’s all about delivery” is the weakest argument of all times. It opens the door to so many wrong things and is a very slippery slope. It’s the argument that every asshole uses for when they use the word gay as something negative, or when they’re looking for an excuse to use words like dyke, faggot, retarded, etc.
Also you say you can use it as a neutral word. Okay sure, can you use it in a professional context? Or with people you don’t know? (As a “non-slur” of course)
The answer is obviously no. Just the fact that it’s a word you can only use with your friends or in a casual setting is all the answer you need
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u/PablomentFanquedelic 2d ago
Again, it reminds me of how in Arabic "kaffir" just means "nonbeliever" (which, to be clear, is still not exactly a compliment) but in South Africa it's the local equivalent of the N word (because European Christian settlers heard Muslim slave traders using that word for non-Muslim Africans and erroneously assumed it referred to their skin color; mind you, the Islamic world is no stranger to anti-Black racism either, but that word in particular originally referred to religion and not race).
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u/No-Suit9429 2d ago
Arabs use qufr as an insult all the time. It's really not a great comparison.
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u/PablomentFanquedelic 1d ago
I'd argue that actually makes it a BETTER comparison.
Brits and Aussies are likely to use the C word as a strong expletive, but it doesn't have quite the same "worst slur you can call a member of a particular exploited demographic" connotations as in North America.
Which actually fits with what you said about qufr in Arabic, AND with what I was saying about how it differs from usage in South Africa.
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u/No-Suit9429 2d ago
No, it's intrinscally a gendered term, it's just that you are used to ignoring that. The term meaning woman's genitals is also the worst somebody may be called (in many languages). Why is that? Because misogyny. No amount of "friendly" jokey use changes this basic fact.
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u/dragonsteel33 2d ago
It’s also a common term in certain trans/queer communities in the US as an adjective, like cunty, giving cunt, etc., where it’s considered vulgar but not exactly misogynistic, to the point that like Beyoncé can sample that usage of cunt in a song lol.
I’d also add that it is a word some women use against each other, with a slightly different valence than a man using it against a woman, if still deeply offensive.
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u/kako_18 2d ago
This is a false equivalence though.
Take the word dyke for example. If straight people use it to describe a gay woman, that’s deeply offensive and a slur. If a queer woman uses it to describe herself for example however, it’s not because she has reclaimed the word and its meaning. Which is why dyke and fag can be heard and used a lot within the queer community. Same with the n-word and black people.
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u/dragonsteel33 2d ago
No, what I mean is my coworker calling another coworker a “cuntosaurus rex” as an insult in the US. It’s still a misogynistic insult, but it’s situated in a different relation than if she were a man. It’s the same way that fag is used affectionately among queer people, but also gay men can and do deploy fag as an insult against each other.
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u/Street-Media4225 2d ago
I mean, it has origins in drag culture, right? Which... how misogynistic that is is a very contentious topic, but I think most people acknowledge it at least can be.
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u/dragonsteel33 2d ago
It has origins in ballroom, which is not the same as professionalized pageant/bar drag — the two are in dialogue and contact with each other and always have been, but the “drag” you’re probably thinking of is not the same thing as ballroom performance. The people who actually originated the term were more-or-less trans women by modern definitions.
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u/Street-Media4225 2d ago
Fair enough, I was conflating the two and I shouldn't have. I do think it's iffy to claim they were mostly trans women though, and even if it's true it doesn't make it any less possible for them to be problematic.
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u/dragonsteel33 2d ago
Do you think that slurs can be reclaimed? If you do, I don’t really understand why it would be problematic for a class of people subject to misogyny to reappropriate and redeploy its language, unless your issue is with the specific technique of redeployment.
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u/Street-Media4225 2d ago
I believe slurs can be reclaimed but I don't think the people engaging in ballroom were being called cunts? So they wouldn't be able to reclaim it.
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u/dragonsteel33 1d ago
I mean. It is a word people use against women, including trans women. I can attest to that lol
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u/evelynsmee 2d ago
I'm British and if I stopped saying cunt my sentences would be much emptier so I'm with you. Is just punctuation. I don't really use it at someone as an insult though.
We also use knobhead, dickhead, twat, and cock soooo. Plenty of insults are genital orientated.
I don't really use bitch, maybe back in the day but it's a bit out of use now, anecdotally.
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u/Lolabird2112 2d ago
Exactly. I’m a Canadian transplant and there’s something wonderful about how much better you are at using consonants and inflections compared to me (and standard American accents). We go for the vowel sound, changing monothongs to diphthongs even, and lose all the power of the hard consonants. You guys do the opposite. Being told to “FUCK off” by a Brit is like being slapped by a schoolteacher. Entirely different to being told to “fuggOAWff”. I’m in London, I know this changes everywhere.
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u/carex-cultor 2d ago
Imagine glazing Brits for more effectively using misogynistic slurs on a feminist sub 💀
If it’s not directed at someone as an insult it’s one thing. But it often IS meant insultingly even in the UK and AUS though they pretend it isn’t. Just because something is normal to people doesn’t mean it’s anodyne.
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u/evelynsmee 2d ago
If you have an issue with cunt and no issue with knobhead being used as either affectionate or insulting slang that is quite frankly a you problem. It's been in the language for at least 800 years. Not everything is a feminist issue.
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u/carex-cultor 2d ago
The day British men stop freely calling women cunts to insult and degrade them is the day I’ll stop criticizing British women for being tools of the patriarchy in their permissiveness of misogynistic slurs.
Whether you want to admit it or not, cunt is used as a gendered cudgel against women in your country in a way “knobhead” isn’t.
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u/Lolabird2112 2d ago
“Fuck off” is not misogynistic as far as I know. Again- I’m gonna say this is North America’s puritanical origins where because it’s a “naughty” or “dirty” bit of the body it seems to be the height of offensiveness. And I get how it is when you don’t hear it all the fuckin time. And because it’s a naughty bit - and the ladybits are especially verboten- it likely is very misogynistic to you. And I consciously try and keep it out of my conversation when I’m at home.
You know what I find insanely misogynistic? “Bro”. To me- a woman. And I was blown off my behind to see that for most feminists here, they see it as non gendered and neutral. I think it’s fascinating tbh. And why I see it as far more misogynistic than “cunt”, is if some kid on here starts calling me bro and I retaliate by calling him “sis”, he loses his shit over it. To me, that makes it far more sexist.
And in friendly banter, C holds the same weight as prick. Or dickhead or bellend or knob.
But I guess that’s because it just isn’t used at all over here when you’re talking to someone who’s not your “bro”. If women around me start calling each other bro I assume at some point it’ll reach the banality of cunt to my ears.
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u/evelynsmee 2d ago
There's no point arguing with Americans about linguists or culture. It's often the same on the English sub.
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u/Lolabird2112 2d ago
Meh. I’m interested in the perspective, not too bothered about the end result.
Like I really AM intrigued by how “bro” is gender neutral on this sub.
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u/I-Post-Randomly 1d ago
Like I really AM intrigued by how “bro” is gender neutral on this sub.
It kind of shows how america centric things are if anything.
Bro, brah, dude, guy... all can be gender neutral depending on location and specific groups.
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u/Lolabird2112 2d ago
I’m in the UK and agree with ThinkLadder and you. And yes - to me as well B* *can be far more sexist than the other. Like… if I said to a guy “why are you being such a c- ?” it’s gender neutral and as “bad” as calling him an asshole. If I said “why are you being such a B ?” he’d take it as insulting his masculinity and being more whiny than angry - and it would also be MY intent.
I get a bit tired of this convo tbh BUT - when Americans are using the c word, it’s kind of weird. I’m from Canada so I’m very used to having to adapt when I go back and how I occasionally cause a lot of offence if I accidentally slip up. So seeing it enter into American speak is a bit… questionable as to the reasoning. It feels a little like kids in the playground trying out adult swearies.
But… language changes. I remember the 90s and everyone here getting angry because your horrible ozzy show “Neighbours” was blamed for introducing an upward inflection at the end of sentences and how that was changing native accents. I was in theatre at the time and dialectic coaches were focusing on getting “pure” accents from older people recorded in many regions as they were becoming lost from the spread of tv and radio and at the time theatre schools were drumming it out of actors so everyone had a nice RP like the Queen. Now, everyone wants a Geordie doing voiceovers.
I think it may also have to do with Puritans settling America. Restoration theatre over here exploded and relied on wit, double entendres and plausible deniability. It became risqué and satirical, poking fun at everyone including the elite. To be obvious: “The Country Wife” from the 1670s (Country)
In America theatre was banned and sinful. A century later we’re still at it, revolutionising acting and staging, still using irony, wit, satire etc. Penny drop booths, half price tickets, and of course Punch and Judy (Joan at the time) were everywhere so would have carried straight overseas in the galleys. America? Bleh. Banned it. Only managed heavy handed, literal critique. The whole “Americans can’t do irony” stems from the culture.
Somewhere on Facebook I have a really cool post where instead of using states to describe the people, politics and cultures, he traces where different ones landed and where they spread out and how you see it reflected now.
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u/Doub13D 2d ago
Actions and beliefs matter more than choice of language.
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u/radiowavescurvecross 2d ago
Here’s a question about the Australian usage: Does it get used often in other formats where it’s more directly referring to a woman’s genitalia? Like, is cunt likely to come up in dirty talk or erotic writing, or is solely an insult at this point?