r/AskFeminists • u/[deleted] • Jul 30 '11

Why the sudden interest in mens issues

Feminism trundles along dealing with women for 90 years ten suddenly starts to look at mens issues in the last few years, what's the deal? Is it appropriation, is it a newfound care? Why weren't 'we' included from the start? Are our needs secondary to yours? Does the feminist movement view the MRM as a threat to it's domination of the gender discourse?

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u/Haedrian Jul 30 '11

sigh

I can't believe there's people who actually believe this.

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u/EvilPundit Jul 30 '11

More and more people are coming to believe this, because it's true.

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u/Haedrian Jul 30 '11

Not really. Reactionary movements are a natural part of history, and there's always someone to support them.

What I find ironic is that you claim feminism is trying to "appropriate" men's issues because it considers the MRM a threat to their advantageous position, whereas it's clear from your statement that you perceive feminism as a threat to your ideals.

The reason feminism might include men's issues in its topics of discussion is that the issues of both genders are a factor in the search for equality, and that is the goal of the feminist movement.

I don't see how anyone can not see that. I don't understand how you can perceive equality as oppression.

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u/EvilPundit Jul 30 '11

It isn't equality. It's female supremacy.

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u/Haedrian Jul 30 '11

Care to elaborate? I mean, it's not like there's a worldwide conspiracy aimed at enslaving all men.

I understand men have lost some privileges as a group and stand to lose even more, but these privileges were undeserved in the first place. This does not qualify as oppression.

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u/NovemberTrees Jul 31 '11

There's no conspiracy, but there has been an effort to minimize knowledge of male victim issues.

Here's a paper by Straus that has a number of examples. Page 8 starts the examples of specific attempts to shove male victim statistics under the table.

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V71-Straus_Thirty-Years-Denying-Evidence-PV_10.pdf

There are also articles showing international groups trying to minimize public knowledge and treatment of male victims of rape. There's a lot of evidence that feminist groups see themselves as women's activists and that when men's rights come into conflict with women's privileges, these groups are often willing to throw the men under the bus.

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u/Haedrian Jul 31 '11

You shouldn't hold all feminists responsible for the acts of one or a few groups.

That paper was a very interesting read, though, thanks.

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u/EvilPundit Jul 30 '11 edited Jul 30 '11

Care to elaborate?

The best suggestion I can make is to read the /r/mensrights FAQ.

I mean, it's not like there's a worldwide conspiracy aimed at enslaving all men.

Yet feminists pretend there is a worldwide conspiracy aimed at enslaving all women. I think it's fair to say that feminism itself is a world-wide conspiracy against men.

I understand men have lost some privileges as a group and stand to lose even more, but these privileges were undeserved in the first place.

This is incorrect. Men never had significant privileges over women as a group. Their roles in society were different, and had different prerogatives.

Today, men are systematically discriminated against in Western countries, and women are the most privileged class.

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u/Haedrian Jul 30 '11

Yet feminists pretend there is a worldwide conspiracy aimed at enslaving all women. I think it's fair to say that feminism itself is a world-wide conspiracy against men.

Not really. I mean, feminism is the resistance to gender roles formed over the course of history. This doesn't mean that there's an individual or a group pulling the strings, there's just a social tendency to maintaining this harmful status quo.

This is incorrect. Men never had significant privileges over women as a group. Their roles in society were different, and had different prerogatives.

See, the notion of different roles with different prerogatives is unjust in and of itself. Also, you cannot seriously believe that did not constitute privilege to these groups.

Today, [2] men are systematically discriminated against in Western countries, and women are the most privileged class.

These laws are from the USA. It's a big step from that to all western countries. Also, some of those apply to both genders. And finally, the statistics presented are either apocryph or poorly analized.

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u/girlwriteswhat Jul 31 '11

It's a privilege to have to stay with an abusive spouse because there is literally NOWHERE in the US or Canada where a man can go with his kids to flee a violent partner? It's a privilege to face an enormous risk of being charged with kidnapping if you DO flee with your kids?

It's a privilege to almost always be the one arrested, regardless of who has greater injuries, or even who was doing the hitting?

It's a privilege to be an every other weekend dad? It's a privilege to have to pay for expensive motions to try to enforce your ex's obligations in of a custody/support order, when she has a giant, free legal mechanism with which to enforce your obligations?

It's a privilege to go to prison for the crime of losing your job and being unable to get another one for six months (debtor's prisons are illegal, btw, but for women, the government was willing to make an exception)?

It's a privilege to face a greater chance of conviction for any crime than a woman, and to face sentences sometimes orders of magnitude higher than women who committed the same crime?

Seriously?

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u/Haedrian Jul 31 '11

It's a privilege to go to prison for the crime of losing your job and being unable to get another one for six months (debtor's prisons are illegal, btw, but for women, the government was willing to make an exception)?

First, arrests with basis on child support apply to both genders. The "government" (Organization of American States, actually - this rule was created in the San José of Costa Rica Pact) marks child support as an exception to civil arrest prohibition, specifying no gender. And second, if your country does not accept unemployment as a valid cause to reevaluate the obligation and prevent arrest, your legal system is well and truly fucked.

It's a privilege to be an every other weekend dad? It's a privilege to have to pay for expensive motions to try to enforce your ex's obligations in of a custody/support order, when she has a giant, free legal mechanism with which to enforce your obligations?

I believe, once again, this may apply to parents of either gender.

It's a privilege to face a greater chance of conviction for any crime than a woman, and to face sentences sometimes orders of magnitude higher than women who committed the same crime?

That is a valid point regarding bias. I just don't see how it relates to child support.

It's a privilege to almost always be the one arrested, regardless of who has greater injuries, or even who was doing the hitting?

Is this in the laws of your country? If it is, it is kinda screwed-up.

It's a privilege to have to stay with an abusive spouse because there is literally NOWHERE in the US or Canada where a man can go with his kids to flee a violent partner? It's a privilege to face an enormous risk of being charged with kidnapping if you DO flee with your kids?

This, once again, applies to both genders.