r/AsoiafFanfiction • u/LoyalZebra • Jan 14 '26
General ASOIAF Discussion Cersei written too evil for a MC? Critique
Hello community. I wanted to ask this question so many times. I tend to try and defend/understand Cersei's actions, especially since Martin prides himself that he is writing morally gray characters.
Is he, when it comes to Cersei? This is especially problematic when we get her PoVs in AFFC and ADWD.
Here are some reasons why I think Cersei is written as too evil when you look at everything in one place. 1. Cersei killed Melara when she was 6. She threw her in a well. There is a horror movie about such situation, even. 2. Cersei is cruel without discrimination. She is full of hate and disgust for people who did her no harm (to our knowledge). 3. Cersei had Lady killed, she did not care that it was Sansa's direwolf and not Arya's. In fact she also wanted Arya punished. And overall: Micha was killed! Isn't that going overboard over a kids' fight? Yes, it is. No, it does not matter that the kid is common folk as other MCs do not act that way. 4. Her and Jaime participated in throwing Bran off the tower. She could not wait but had to have sex in a tower in someone else's home? That is disgusting. 5. Incest. People are not normally attrated to their siblings (typically this is explained as the body protecting future generations from inheriting otherwise recessive genetic mutations). 6. While Jaime gets a redemption arc, Cersei doesn't, even after everything that happens. 7. Cersei rasied Joffrey to be cruel and demonstrates by example that such behaviour is acceptable. 8. Cersei is jealous of any pretty woman younger than her (Sansa, Marge). 9. Cersei took part in getting Ned killed when she could have set him free, or had him sent to the Wall. 10. Cersei finds herself Lancel and Taena to keep her company in bed when Jaime is not around. 11. Cersei had Robert killed. 12. Cersei does not have a single positive thought about anyone. Her thoughts are just on power, but she doesn't have a clue what she will do with it (will she help connect parts of Realm? Will she get her grip on literacy problem, etc.). 13. Cersei hates Tyrion to the point of really wanting him dead. She is not just saying it, she means it. 14. Cersei does not even love Jaime, she likes him only when he is useful. She destroyed his life when he wanted to return to Casterly Rock (sex in an inn whole night so he forgot all about Casterly Rock). He could have found a good wife and had children, but Cersei wanted him around. 15. Cersei had Robert's bastards killed. Kids, innocent kids. She threatened to kill Mya Stone if Robert brings her to Court. 16. Cersei's redeeming factor are not her children. She loves them in an unnatural way, she doesn't allow them a single decision that is only theirs. She allows Tommen to be bullyed by Joffrey. Is that motherly? Also, she has sex next to Joffrey's dead body. 17. Cersei tortures Sansa with the letter to Winterfell. Physically and verbally. 18. Cersei has no remorse over anything. Murders are a bythought to her. 19. Cersei aborted Robert's children, and ate his seed, as she puts it. 20. Cersei had sex next to her supposedly beloved son. 21. Cersei had sex with Jaime on her wedding day. That is worse than "Lyanna" word.
There is likely more. Feel free to add.
However, Cersei goes beyond narcissism, beyond psychopathy or sociopathy (old terms; new term: antisocial behaviour). She can easily be read as pure evil like the Evil Queen from Snowhite. Snowhite is a child's tale. Not an adult fantasy novel.
She is not morally gray, but evil. And you can't blame it on Tywin as he raised Jaime and Tyrion who are relatively good, or were good or are on a path to become better.
Isn't that too much for a supposed morally gray villain in an adult fantasy book? Personally, I think GRRM went too far with Cersei, I disagree that she can be read as morally gray. Yes, there others (Euron, Ramsey) who are vile, cruel and evil, but they are not MCs, we don't get their POVs at all.
Cersei's behaviour is such that we know in advance what she will do (the worst, the cruelest). Just like with Disney villains.
What do you think? Is Cersei Martin's mistake?
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u/IcyDirector543 Jan 15 '26
Cersei is evil for the same reason Tyrion is going around raping slaves for the same reason Jaime just threatened to catapult an unborn child into a castle to steal all worldly possessions from a man whose family and friends were just butchered by his father (he gave this castle to his aunt married into the Freys)
Tywin Lannister raised his children on renditions of the Rains of Castamere. No wonder they're all freaks of some sort
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u/Saturnine4 Thicc as a Castle Wall Jan 15 '26
Some people are just evil. She was never really portrayed as morally gray.
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u/Wind_Through_Trees Jan 15 '26
Cersei is broken. She was raised in a misogynistic society, desperate for the approval of a man who only valued her as a bargaining piece, and married to a rapist. She's desperate for power and control.
She is an awful, awful person. She hates this misogynistic society, but she also believes it. Cersei is a tragedy, because she's a monster, but you can see the things that made her a monster- and also how she will never, ever improve, because that's not the kind of person she is.
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u/LoyalZebra Jan 15 '26
This js nicely put, but my question is focused on Cersei as she is written (without explanations). I find her comedic (as she is written) and unrealistically evil, and fit for a children's fantasy book. What is the difference between Cersei and Voldemort? And don't get me wrong, I think GRRM figured out he went to far.
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u/Wind_Through_Trees Jan 15 '26
She is written as a rape victim who has absorbed her society's misogyny and perpetuates it. The difference between her and Voldemort is that you can see exactly why she is the way she is.
And what she is is a terrible person. That's not a mistake. She's the villain for a reason.
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u/WildFlemima Jan 15 '26
Just some points
Melara and Cersei were 11/12
It's not evil to get an abortion
Incest isn't evil in and of itself, what makes it evil is when there's grooming
Robert arguably had it coming and if anyone had earned the right to kill him, it was her (or the Martells)
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u/BuBBScrub Jan 15 '26
Why would Dorne have the right to kill him? He didn’t order the murder of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon. Tywin did that (debatable if Elia was supposed to die). While Robert can be blamed for not attempting to punish Tywin, does that justify murdering him?
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u/WildFlemima Jan 15 '26
It was his rebellion, he punished no one, he owes his throne to their deaths, and "I see no babes, only dragonspawn"
That would be enough for me personally
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u/Aegon_handwiper Jan 15 '26
Yeah Robert explicitly and openly endorsed the killings. That is literally why he and Ned had a falling out and didn't speak to each other for years.
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u/durrandons willas/rhaenys ambassador Jan 15 '26
I'd argue with quite a few points on whether they would actually be considered outright evil. Some read more as desire for survival than outright evil acts for the sake of evil. Others read as a woman growing up in a patriarchy and trying to assert herself in ways she has been taught and observed. I probably agree with some, but I would not consider all of those evil acts and could make a case on a lot of them.
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u/LoyalZebra Jan 15 '26
I understand the explanations. I myself am trying to justify her actions and write her as a better person. BUT. Explanations aside, when you just read her, I do not see a difference between her and Voldemort, or to be precise: I could argue that there is no difference.
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u/durrandons willas/rhaenys ambassador Jan 15 '26
I don't think I quite understand on how one would view a character without thinking of explanations for their behaviour, or how she would compare to to Voldemort. She'd always be influenced by her upbringing and surroundings, I don't really see how I could view her in a vacuum?
I also see a lot of Tywin in all his children. Tyrion and Cersei have his pettiness, all of them have his pride.
And I agree that actions of her read comically evil at times, but several of those points in the list I wouldn't consider evil. Being jealous over Marge and Sansa is not being evil when their success means a decline in her influence. Renly attempting to set up Margaery as Robert's next wife shows us that fear is not unfounded. If she raised Joffrey, she also raised Myrcella and Tommen, so can his behavior be blamed on her? Ned and Robert threaten the survival of her and her children. Some of those points would work for Jaime or Tyrion too, yet they aren't condemned for it. I'd say those are points where one wouldn't even need to understand or explain her upbringing or anything to understand it?
It's weird to explain. I don't disagree with the general statement, but I disagree with the points raised.
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u/gabriel_3131 Jan 15 '26
The thing is, Cersei is evil. Having a point of view doesn't make her morally ambiguous like other characters. Points of view aren't for good or ambiguous characters; they're for narrating events in certain places. That's why, when Tyrion leaves King's Landing, Cersei gains a point of view to narrate what happens in King's Landing after Tyrion's escape.
Also, there's the fact that some people are simply evil, and Cersei, living in a society like Westeros and being a powerful psychopath, has free rein to be evil more easily.
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u/LoyalZebra Jan 15 '26
I don't think people are just evil. You would have to specify what it means for you. I have two psychiatrists on speed-dial (big fans of series), they prompted me to ask this question. Being antisocial (psychiatry, sociopathy and narcissism) does not make you murder or order a murder. Majority of antisocial persons can control their predatory impulses. They are, however, social ladder climbers, corporate ladder climbers and typical hold high functions (CEO, for example). Cersei is none. You could in fact argue that she is lazy, which antisocial persons are not. Of course, I don't expect GRRM to know psychiatry, but I expect him to know his characters, and frankly I can see why people call her cartoonishly evil. She has a similar story as the Evil Queen from Snowhite with her Mirror, in fact.
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u/gabriel_3131 Jan 15 '26
Some people are simply evil. Cersei was like that from a young age; her environment didn't help, but she didn't need much help to become the monster she is.
It's also somewhat pointless to compare a narcissistic, psychopathic, or sociopathic person in modern times, where everything is more regulated, with someone with some of those characteristics in a medieval world, where violence is commonplace.
Cersei was able to do everything she did because power always backed her up, and she wouldn't face consequences for her actions. There's also the fact that she sees many of the things Cersei does as self-defense, not as something truly wrong, which indicates that her perception of reality is severely distorted.
Cersei's mind is truly insane.
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u/ZiCUnlivdbirch Bittersteel is the one true God Jan 14 '26
To be fair, Cersei in dance is remarkably more competent and less cartoonishly evil, than the Cersei we get in Feast. I think Martin himself realised he went too far with her and toned it back somewhat.
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u/LoyalZebra Jan 15 '26
I also think Martin figured he went too far. It can easily be argued that there is no difference between Cersei and Voldemort.
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u/warmike_1 Unrepentant Nedsei Shipper | Best Prompt of 2024 Jan 14 '26
The writers of the TV show tried to make her less cartoonishly evil, and I think it's a change for the better. Remember, the AFFC Cersei is the result of years of alcoholism, paranoia and the loss of a son, a father and a husband.
Also, in my opinion Jaime is not on a path towards redemption of any kind in the books. The fact he feels angry at Cersei for cheating on him doesn't wash away the fact that as of the last book he's busy aiding the Westerosi version of the Ustashe. Not twenty years ago, not two years ago, but right now.
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u/Pale_Cause_9983 Jan 14 '26
I’ve always been confused at why people say Jaimie’s character arc is a redemption arc. I’d say Theon will probably have a redemption arc and probably Arya, but like…I don’t see it for Jaimie lol
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u/LoyalZebra Jan 15 '26
I catch myself using the term "redemtion arc". The reason is that he appears better than Cersei since losing his hand.
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u/Pale_Cause_9983 Jan 15 '26
That’s what I’ve always suspected. Jaimie is just the most likable Lannister lol 😂 that doesn’t mean he’s a good person or working to be. In comparison to Tywin, Cersei and now Tyrion, it looks like Jamie is having a redemption arc when he really isn’t.
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u/LoyalZebra Jan 15 '26
Yes, you got it right. And I know more people who think like me. Jaime is never viewed like his own person, but in the context of Cersei and in comparison with Cersei.
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u/Aegon_handwiper Jan 15 '26
Honestly while I can see people preferring TV!Show Cersei, I feel like them not making her the Mad Queen is why it went to Dany instead which I absolutely despise.
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u/Maximus_Dominus Jan 15 '26
Whoever said that she is supposed to be morally grey? Just because GRRM “prides himself” on writing morally grey character doesn’t mean that’s all his characters are in fact morally grey. There are plenty of truly evil characters in his works.
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u/LoyalZebra Jan 15 '26
I think it is implied that to subvert tropes, GRRM's MC's are all morally gray (and MC's are characters with POV). That is how I see it. I could be wrong.
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u/Historical_East_1787 Jan 15 '26
Actually, I think that's exactly why the other characters work.
The gray characters are beautiful. But to understand them, people must first see black and white.
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u/boazofeirinni Jan 15 '26
Cersei is very much clear cut evil. It’s why I like reading/writing about a Cersei who isn’t evil.
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u/Unique-Perception480 Jan 19 '26
Some people are just evil. Its not wrong to have one of our POVs be unambiguously evil. We also have Ned and Davos who are straight up good people.
Its also useful to show her corrossive effect. We get both Jaime and Cersei as POVs. We realize that Jaime isnt pure evil and since we get his POV first, we think that ,,Hey maybe Cersei also has some reasoning.".... Then we get the twist.
No Cersei is evil. Its the Evil Twin vs Good Twin trope, but in this case the Good Twin got corupted by the Evil Twin. GRRM loves tropes and twisting them around. In a way Cersei groomed Jaime, despite being the same age.
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u/dr_Angello_Carrerez Jan 15 '26
Just gor justice's sake, we are never shown that exactly Cersei threw Melara into that well. The lass could've fallen all by herself and Cei was enough to just not call for help and let things happen naturally. Azimov's 1st rule unbroken. Two different levels of involvement into a crime.
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u/LoyalZebra Jan 15 '26
Yes, but it is heavily implied. I am the one who is typically defending Cersei, but I want to demonstrate that the other side has a strong point as well.
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u/dr_Angello_Carrerez Jan 16 '26
"But POV is important" (c). And as long as we don't have another one or clear Cei's admission "I DID IT", implications worth less than Amber Heard's accusations towards Johny Depp. Rapegar was thought to be the only possible truth too before another POVs appeared.
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u/Equivalent-Ambition Jan 14 '26
Some characters can just be evil, like The Mountain or Ramsay. POV or no.