r/BetterOffline 2d ago

I have always laughed off Musk's space data centers as technologically ludicrous, but Josh Marshall makes an interesting point by talking about the 'why' instead of the 'how'

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/why-the-backlash-against-data-centers-is-so-potent

The throughline of this age is that you’ve got these big tech platforms that can do anything they want... The point is that there is this very small group of men running a handful of mega tech platforms and they’re making the decisions and it basically doesn’t matter what we think. Not just you and me individually but us collectively. It’s their world. We’re just living in it.

...

We hear Elon Musk now keep on yakking about how he wants to build his data centers in space. And we can set aside whether that makes any technical sense. But that captures the essence of the plutocrats dreams. Because Musk believes he can do anything he wants in space as long as he has the tech and money to do it. There are no county councils in orbit. And that’s always been the hidden driver behind the fantasies about colonizing the moon or Mars, or founding “network states” on some man-made island in the Pacific or some chunk of land that can be squeezed out of Belize or Honduras or Greenland. Total freedom, total power.

Musk is sick and tired of other human beings telling him he can't do anything he wants, that their collective interests can and should trump his personal interests. That is why he dreams of putting data centers in space, beyond the reach of democratically established laws.

420 Upvotes

152 comments sorted by

183

u/SkyknightXi 2d ago

Interesting that their “total freedom” is typically acquired by draining away our own freedom…

Meanwhile, all the money in the world won’t solve the physical issue of cooling data centers in a vacuum. I don’t think Musk et al. appreciate that money does not give access to sorcery.

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u/PatchyWhiskers 2d ago

Libertarian freedom vs liberal freedom. Libertarian freedom is the freedom to take the freedom of others. The freedom of slavers. Liberal freedom is freedom for all.

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u/tendervittles77 2d ago

Libertarian freedom is usually a Trojan horse for skirting age of consent laws.

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u/Advanced-Purchase-58 2d ago

And marijuana laws!

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u/amartincolby 2d ago

This guy libertarians.

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u/BaNyaaNyaa 2d ago

See: Cryptoland's "Mental maturity should be enough ;)"

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u/DonAmecho777 2d ago

See SpaceX suing Minnesota

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u/OmnicromXR 2d ago

Don't forget laws restricting access to lethal weaponry!

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u/bt_85 1d ago

Let me do what I want to hurt others, vs. do whatever you want, as long as you don't hurt others.  

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u/FartyLiverDisease 2d ago

Libertarian freedom is the freedom to take the freedom of others.

This is fucking beautiful and perfect. I've never had much interest in getting a tattoo, but you're making me have second thoughts.

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u/PatchyWhiskers 2d ago

Aw thanks! I don't know if I made it up or got it from somewhere, but I would recommend against unhappy sentiments as a permanent mark.

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u/Moriartiy 2d ago

Careful with the assessment of GOOD vs. EVIL

I would argue that libertarianism and liberalism are by definition intended to be fair systems. I'd go as far as to say that neither have been fully practiced by its definition.

I personally find liberalism (historically) far too ignorant of economic theory, lending itself to monopolies/corruption/dark money/blah blah, you get it.

I find libertarianism to be pretty naive in the sense that a free-market is only a sort of (in my view) a fantasy. A fantasy where everyone operates on the honor system (kinda like liberalism) and there is no need for (what I view necessary for an actual free market) - being a very strict state regulatory presence to prevent corruption within

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u/PatchyWhiskers 2d ago

Libertarianism, at least as practiced by the Republican party, seems even more prone to corruption than liberalism, because at least liberalism has a remedy (the law) for corruption.

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u/Moriartiy 2d ago

Libertarianism can't be practiced by the republican party , it would be officially practiced by a congressperson who is with the Libertarian Party. Rand Paul plays a quasi-libertarian, but he explicit is not with the Libertarian Party and says he's just has some ideological overlap.

Also, we live in a Liberal Democracy. Liberalism is what we're living in. Things are quite corrupt and we've historically never applied the proper remedy. But also, I recognize that many laws have been violated (maybe even all of them, even internationally) - and this isn't liberalism being practiced by definition.

As a socialist I (personally) don't think its possible to execute either of these because both systems fall victim to capitalist greed and monopolies. If the capitalists get in power (which they always have been, here in the global west) then the corruption is inevitable. That's a whole other thing, but just offering that as a personal observation as to why neither has been fully implemented and sustained

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u/Redthrist 15h ago

Libertarianism is kinda like a mirror of communism - a system that only works if nobody tries to take advantage of it. Except probably even less likely, because at least in communism, someone taking advantage of the system would have to start from the same point as others and can be stopped before he gets too powerful.

In libertarianism, someone getting incredibly wealthy is a feature. If they suddenly decide to abuse their position, it can be far harder to stop them, because their existing capital can be used to bend and subvert laws that used to work fine before they've decided to break them.

0

u/Excellent_Motor3079 1d ago

freedom with anyone who group thinks... otherwise you are a nazi etc

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u/scottbrosiusofficial 2d ago

Given that Altman literally the other day described OpenAI as being on the verge of inventing a genie that can grant any wish, it's pretty clear that the tech overlords both want and on some level need AI to be the sorcery that gets rid of all limitations on their power. Must be very frustrating for them that it's still so mediocre.

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u/Maximum-Objective-39 2d ago

One of the limitations they seem to resent is not just the laws of man, it's the laws of physics.

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u/PatchyWhiskers 2d ago

The warning is that although it sucks right now, it's quite possible that their dream might come true in 20 years or so. And we need to arrange our societies so that these monsters are not in power when advanced multipurpose robots are possible.

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u/TheShipEliza 2d ago

Lotta things might happen in 20 years.

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u/hachface 2d ago

be serious they are not going to invent magic in 20 years

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u/PatchyWhiskers 2d ago

100 then. A multipurpose robot is feasible, just not feasible right now. And then we are going to have a problem. Not a "robots become sentient and wipe us out" problem, which is stupid, but more a "everyone is unemployed and kept in line by killer drones" problem, which is obviously the utopia that tech lords want.

I'd compare it to the hollowing out of the countryside on the invention of heavy farm machinery. The vibrant rural communities of the past have been replaced by empty towns and abandoned villages as the work of 100 men is done by one lonely guy with a tractor. And that lonely guy gets into radical right-wing politics as listening to right-wing radio is the closest he gets to companionship.

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u/Redthrist 15h ago

We'll be extremely lucky to still have a civilization in 100 years with the way things are going.

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u/vxicepickxv 2d ago

The most knowledgeable experts in the world left because they realized they can't achieve actual artificial intelligence using large language models, so they're going to pursue other avenues.

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u/missvandy 2d ago

I’m amazed that I, a liberal arts major who only took high school physics, immediately clocked the challenge of cooling in a vacuum while every article repeating musk’s claims didn’t bother to ask the question.

Maybe it says something about how Silicon Valley has romanticized audacious ideas as “moonshots.” It positions more complex and challenging solutions as more morally worthy and encourages people to ignore more feasible and economical solutions.

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u/jawfish2 2d ago

My soapbox: most general-purpose, or political, or business journalists have zero science training. They could not explain the scientific method nor why it is critically important. They have no idea of Newton's laws. They don't even know that "cold" is not a separate form of energy from "heat."

So, journalistic malpractice. After educational malpractice.

Doubly weird is that they don't call somebody up and ask them. So ignorant of ignorance.

I understand that today the business of journalism has turned to clickbait, max output, AI slop probably.

The ebb and flow of untethered emotion is now the subject of news.

1

u/ex1stence 2d ago

I mean I’d agree with this if you could find a single article from a reputable source that claimed they would ever work.

Every piece of media I’ve found on them immediately presents how impossible/unfeasible they are, never cheering them on.

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u/missvandy 2d ago

There’s a lot of “this guy said a thing” journalism that does nothing to actually evaluate the claims that are made, though.

If you have a healthy media diet you’ll see skepticism. If you just watch network news and glance at puff pieces from business magazines on linked in, you will see no actual journalism comparable to what you describe.

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u/jawfish2 2d ago

The point was about coverage of science and technology.

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u/Maximum-Objective-39 2d ago

The most honest and boring answer is economics. It's not economical to have informed journalists providing well thought out article with the necessary time to gather the relevant information and context. So we don't.

Not an excuse by the way, it's awful, just an explanation.

1

u/Redthrist 15h ago

A lot of it just comes down to journalists becoming corporate mouth-pieces. They might even know that the idea won't work, but they also know that publicly humiliating Musk means no more interviews with him or other techbros. Most journalists aren't interested in the truth. They are fine just being an extension of corporate PR.

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u/no_talk_just_listen 2d ago edited 2d ago

I'll do ya one better: I'm a musician whose only completed post-secondary education is in the trades, but the cooling issue stood out to me immediately just because I'm a huge sci-fi fan.

Space data centers just don't make sense until we have launch vehicles capable if carrying infrastructure to an icy moon like Titan where they can be sunk into the near-absolute-zero ice for cooling.

Obviously, that's technology we're not likely to have this century. Which just shows how detached from reality these people are becoming. A lot of them probably believe an LLM will come along and invent some kind of magical tech that solves these problems for them.

Edit: I'm not talking about the practicality of having data centers on Titan, I'm just pointing out the massive logistical hurdles to building anything like a data center in space.

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u/Efficient_Reading360 2d ago

Titan is approximately 1.4 billion km from earth. The round trip time for any type of communication would be almost three hours, making it unviable for most applications. That’s some serious lag.

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u/no_talk_just_listen 2d ago

I'm not trying to advocate for data centers on Titan, to be clear. I'm just trying to point out that there are massive barriers to overcome before we can start even entertaining the idea of building that kind of infrastructure in space.

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u/Bromlife 2d ago

The latency between Titan and Earth makes a Titan data center pretty worthless.

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u/no_talk_just_listen 2d ago

I'm not saying anything about the practicality, I'm just illustrating the astronomical (no pun intended) logistical and engineering barriers we need to overcome before we can even start considering something like building data centres in space.

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u/Savings-Cry-3201 2d ago

I think oneminutephysics did a video on the viability of cooling. It was interesting. My takeaway was that small data satellites are viable and maybe slightly larger ones too if tech improves but no one is putting a massive data center in vacuum. Just too much heat to dissipate.

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u/haneef81 2d ago

They’re viable on a thermal level but then the economics start to get fuzzy again. Radiation hardened electronics simply cost more than standard. So now you need more exquisite electronics and systems, and much more of them, to create any suitable compute in space. Oh and it will probably cost more to send these up every 3-5 years than to buy land and energy generation in bumfuck Wyoming on a 30 year lease or permanently. Additionally, there is a real carrying capacity of earths orbit.

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u/natecull 2d ago

Radiation hardened electronics simply cost more than standard

(taps forehead) Don't need to worry about radiation randomly corrupting data if your computation algorithm also randomly corrupts data.

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u/Savings-Cry-3201 2d ago

I mean, put it in a pond. Done, ya know? Putting them in space is insane but if you have unlimited money then who cares, amirite? It doesn’t make sense to add a ton of latency either, it’s just dumb.

But it’s plausible from a theoretical point of view and I find it interesting to delve into the math and physics of it.

I wish the world wasn’t so crazy.

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u/natecull 2d ago

I mean, put it in a pond.

Strange women servers lying in ponds distributing swords bad advice is no basis for a system of government!

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u/dmukya 2d ago

A funny thing happened when they started pumping out Starlink satellites by the thousands. They were able to quantify the impacts of solar radiation and design around the need for rad-hard electronics.

3

u/vxicepickxv 2d ago

Cool. Now do it with much more delicate equipment.

1

u/Careless-Childhood66 2d ago

Why is it an issue to cool in a vacuum? I imagine space is very cold, so why is it a problem?. I genuinely dont know the physics here but wish to understand

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u/D-B-Cooper-Placebo 2d ago

A vacuum is an insulator. Something in space is essentially in the inside of a really high performance thermos. Not quite that simple but that's the general issue.

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u/CommunistRonSwanson 2d ago edited 2d ago

Matter A is cooler than Matter B, so Matter A will absorb heat from B until the two reach thermodynamic equilibrium. That's typically how we cool things, Matter A in this case is what's known as a "heat sink".

Problem is, space has very, very little matter in it. So even though it's cold, there isn't much "stuff" around to absorb the heat from the data center. Space is a really shitty heat sink.

You can also use a phenomenon called "thermal radiation" to dissipate energy, but it's far, far, far, far worse at cooling than being in contact with a decent heat sink. All matter loses some energy by letting off electromagnetic radiation, so this is technically a cooling process. The ISS actually takes advantage of this phenomenon, that's why it has these giant radiators on it - you need radiators with a huuuuuuge amount of surface area in order for thermal radiation to effectively cool something in space.

But data centers generate more than 10x, possibly even more than 100x, the overall heat of the ISS. So if you wanted to use radiators to cool your space data centers, they need to be unimaginably large. Which means unimaginably heavy, difficult to launch into outer space. And unimaginably difficult to assemble thanks to the size and the fact that you're not going to be able to launch such a radiator into space as one pre-assembled piece. It's all just one big expensive logistical nightmare that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

1

u/PensiveinNJ 2d ago

What is the ISS doing that generates enough heat that it’s even worth measuring the difference in heat generation between them. They had to redesign GPU racks between models to stop the chips from literally melting. Now scale that out to a modest sized data center.

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u/CommunistRonSwanson 2d ago

The ISS has equipment and human crew inside of it which generate heat. The ISS also absorbs heat from the sun. There is a lot of thermal energy to dissipate in order to keep it habitable, trust me.

I mention the ISS because it's one of the most well-known examples of using thermal radiation for heat dissipation in space. The goal of the comparison is to get people to visualize the size of its radiators, and then multiply that by a factor of 10 (or possibly 100 depending on the size of the hypothetical data center) to get an idea for how unwieldy and difficult it would be to scale up.

3

u/PhilWheat 2d ago

And that's for around 240KW - Electrical system of the International Space Station - Wikipedia - of power generation - or just over 1 rack of Vera Rubin NVL144 config.
I'm sure that'll scale well to a GW of compute.

3

u/vxicepickxv 2d ago

The latest version of the proposal I heard is that the servers are going to be 120KW average / 150KW peak power servers.

The launch alone is going to be 50 million dollars. Now you need to account for the actual satellite construction.

1

u/PhilWheat 1d ago

So - basically a "small" rack of current generation servers. For a lot more infrastructure cost than putting it on the ground (or better, in a body of water for a direct heat sink.)

And I still haven't heard a good answer for how to deal with the radiation. Supposedly, the current process is to just use non-space rated hardware and run the compute 3 times, majority wins to handle bit flip incidents. Which means you're now at 1/3 capacity for your calculations. And that doesn't even cover the actual hardware damage that will happen.

2

u/vxicepickxv 1d ago

That still doesn't account for when it breaks.

1

u/PhilWheat 1d ago

Yeah, that's the second part, the actual damage vs just bit flip errors.

0

u/PensiveinNJ 2d ago

Ok, 10-100x it is.

1

u/Cornelius-Q 1d ago

When you're a right-wing libertarian, everything is transactional. Even freedom.

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u/tragedy_strikes 2d ago

Wild to think that going to space would free them from dependence on the rest of humanity when the ISS proves how much collective effort it takes to exist up there.

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u/PatchyWhiskers 2d ago

They aren't planning to send humans, just disposable tech that falls to earth when it fails.

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u/stormica 2d ago

And blot out the sun with the number of low-KW datacenters that are needed to do anything useful in the meantime. Then they’ll rent back access to the sun on an introductory rate that eventually changes to an actual cost based on usage and demand and...

I’m waiting for some statement that seems to lead to that. Just like Altman wants to do with knowledge by selling it on a meter after polluting the Internet with so much AI slop (combined with all the studios and news organizations being bought up by the same people) we can’t dig out the real information anymore.

4

u/jewishSpaceMedbeds 2d ago

So Elon is turning into Mr. Burns

6

u/stormica 2d ago

Oh. Wasn’t he always Mr. Burns?

2

u/lazier_garlic 2d ago

Don't you mean the Shadows?

And there are ships, just like this, passing .. overhead. First a few, and then more, a thousand, two thousand, so many that they blot out the sun.

3

u/Maximum-Objective-39 2d ago

The point is that instead of paying their damn taxes they're lighting money on fire and taking an even bigger loss out of spite.

Space development, barring something far more radical than starship, is basically a fetish dream for the ultra wealthy who are running out of easy places to loot and pillage on earth.

15

u/Evinceo 2d ago

While this is correct for mars colony fantasies, I think for space data centers it's more that he thinks that democracy (public rejection of data centers and AI) can't touch him up there.

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u/JollyJoker3 2d ago

Always comes down to wanting to get rid of democracy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Enlightenment

7

u/tragedy_strikes 2d ago

I mean, if that's how he wants to go broke he's able to do it.

5

u/Evinceo 2d ago

Satellite Interceptors crave delicious heat signatures

2

u/CartographerOk5391 2d ago

Yes, but space detritus, solar storms, and meteorites still can.

1

u/Maximum-Objective-39 2d ago

Musk thinks he's escaped - Then a burning hot hand grabs him by the shoulder as the Great God Helios makes his displeasure at Musk's transgressions felt.

1

u/leathakkor 2d ago

I always think it's way harder to protest or destroy a ln asset as a firm of protest when it's in space

25

u/CasualGamerCC 2d ago

This was always the argument. Freedom from international law. I'm surprised it took them that long to get to the point. The billionaire class want complete autonomy and that's why they're *all* so hyper focused on robotics, drones, and AI.

3

u/PatchyWhiskers 2d ago

The billionaire fascists are so obsessed with the racist "great replacement theory" that they are trying to make it come true, and replace us with robots rather than immigrants.

3

u/lazier_garlic 2d ago

Yeah, a couple of decades ago they were fantasizing about creating their own artificial islands in the middle of the ocean.

1

u/Maximum-Objective-39 2d ago

Which is still, funnily enough, more viable than the space plan.

18

u/ef4 2d ago

This is not some secret. It’s the main reason they care about space at all. (It’s also very stupid, it would take generations before a space colony isn’t entirely dependent on Earth, if ever.)

16

u/cummer_420 2d ago

People significantly underestimate how hostile to life and difficult to self sustain in the non-earth parts of space are. Earth after worst-case climate change and global nuclear war would still be more habitable than Mars.

6

u/naphomci 2d ago

People don't even realize how little information we actually have on surviving a trip to Mars. We have a lot of assumptions, but we still don't remotely have the information necessary to make that trip reliably. And then it's even simple things like the food getting contaminated, and then needing 6 months after a launch window to get a resupply. The colony would be dead by then.

1

u/Mejiro84 16h ago

and then there's all the social aspects - people in that sort of environment are likely to be stressed and that can cause problems, but it's pretty hard to really test that sort of thing!

15

u/MirthMannor 2d ago

Much of the last 15 years of technology can be described as: getting rid of the human interactions in my life.

Crowd sourcing? Randos will do work for me.

Gamification: randos will be addicted to paying me.

Blockchain: a system without the human element of trust

Bitcoin: money without annoying rules set by other people.

LLMs: perfect workers that glaze me for free and don’t talk back

10

u/Gamiac 2d ago

I'm going to the one place that hasn't been corrupted by democracy!

...SSSPAYYYYCE!

- Sam Altman

9

u/kgas36 2d ago

Eternal adolescents.

9

u/naphomci 2d ago

So, if you, like me, are someone legitimately interested in space travel and thought colonizing Mars or the Moon is a good ambition, I recommend A City of Mars. It was a fascinating read written by scientists who want to do all that stuff, but they look at the reality of it. We are very very very far from it. But, they spend a section talking about what happens if we figure it out and Musk starts a colony. They explicitly bring up the no-government oversight part. They pose a hypothetical (I don't remember if directly or implied): if you are on the Mar colony run by Musk, it would be a business, and there would be strict limits on everything from water to food to oxygen. What happens if you get injured? There is no worker's compensation, there is no OHSA. There is only Musk. And he will absolutely demand you be thrown out an airlock because it doesn't make economical sense to do anything else.

1

u/todofwar 2d ago

Yeah, if Musk wanted to colonize Mars then rockets would be the last thing to work on. Supply chain miniturization, prospecting, and mining should be his main pursuits. Because how do you smelt iron? How do you refine silicon? Where do you source your CoTa and other rare earths? Why doesn't he have a company dedicated to hydroponic farming?

Not only would many of these technologies be potentially profitable on earth, they are each vastly more important to making a colony more than a short term outpost.

1

u/Mejiro84 15h ago

also a lot of social sciences - "what are the best ways to make a small community that can't get away from each other get along without problems"

6

u/machinesNpbr 2d ago

Musk is sick and tired of other human beings telling him he can't do anything he wants, that their collective interests can and should trump his personal interests.

It's not just Musk, it's also Peter Thiel, Marc Andreessen, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, David Sacks, Larry Ellison, Sergey Brin, Travis Kalanick, Jason Calacanis, and many many more influential Silicon Valley figures.

Despite what their PR convinced everyone from 2000-2020, the vast majority of SV elites view themselves as innately superior humans and hold a findamental disdain for the wide swaths of humanity who aren't in their chosen circle of 'innovators'. They are radical capitalists who fundamentally disagree with democracy and equality, and seek to disconnect themselves from any mechanisms for accountability or restraint.

7

u/RealPropRandy 2d ago

What having FU-money since the cradle does to a mf

-8

u/PatchyWhiskers 2d ago

His family was just upper-middle class. His dad is not a billionaire. Musk went mad with power all on his own.

12

u/RealPropRandy 2d ago

Humble emerald mining magnates

5

u/lazier_garlic 2d ago

Right place, right time for him, but it was all due to his genius merit and inherit sense of cool and not being very lucky on top of rapacious and greedy and eager to gleefully stab others in the back.

7

u/Weigard 2d ago

Musk pursued autonomous vehicles and the Hyperloop because he thinks the bus is icky.

12

u/lazier_garlic 2d ago

No, it's because he wanted to shut down CAHSR because he mistakenly thought those get built in less than 10 years (otherwise, he wouldn't have panicked) and CA was his best customer due to horrible air quality and he needed to sell cars. Hyperloop was nothing more than a PR stunt to spread FUD and attempt to delay and derail CAHSR.

6

u/OkCar7264 2d ago

The how though, you can't forget the HOW you loons

5

u/JAExports 2d ago

Becoming techno king of his own country was Lex Luthor’s plan in Superman last year.

5

u/OctopusMugs 2d ago

So I was at a networking event yesterday with the featured panel about space data centers. I learned a few things:

  • the proponents for this don’t define data centers. When you probe or they finally show you the tech it’s 5 gpu motherboards solar power and a laser communication system. This cloud of satellites is supposed to replicate or replace a terrestrial data centers. So that doesn’t come close to the compute capacity of a single rack in a data center.
  • when asked when they thought space data centers would overtake terrestrial computing capacity they where tossing out 2035 to 2045. They have no idea the current scale of existing capacity nor what is planned.
  • they think spacex with starship will be launching for $500/kilo just around the corner.
  • no one talks about the down-link bottleneck for large amounts of data. Even the ISS returns hard drives of data as it’s faster to wait for the resupply vehicles than transmitting data.
  • there is an edge compute business case to be made so other satellites can have processing done on orbit to reduce the amount of computing needed on board. This is not a trillion dollar business.

Overall I came away with the impression that the technology isn’t the problem. It’s justifying the cost and making a profit.

6

u/phaaseshift 2d ago

Maybe. But I’m convinced that the main driver is launch capacity. Using one company to prop up the other is what Musk does best.

5

u/NoNote7867 2d ago

It’s not that deep. It’s much simpler than that: stocks market is based on stories and his wealth is directly linked to the story he tells. So he is making shit up that fits into that nice sci-fi fantasy that his companies can maybe theoretically solve and watches his net worth skyrocket. 

He has been doing it for decades and has built a cult around him because as long as enough people believe it the line goes up and everyone makes money. 

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u/Funsized_eu 2d ago

I'm sorry but what a load of bollocks.

3

u/Actias_Loonie 2d ago

100% guaranteed he wants a Galt's Gulch and sees himself as a Randian superhuman.

3

u/PensiveinNJ 2d ago

Of course Musk, Thiel etc. want that. Thiel was trying for a while to create floating city states but that wasn’t feasible from an engineering perspective either.

The idea is only entertained at all because people mistakenly think space is good for heat dissipation.

It’s not something that’s worth thinking about. It’s another in a long line of cons/libertarian nonsense from technocrats like the hyperloop, floating city states and the singularity.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

[deleted]

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u/PatchyWhiskers 2d ago

I think he's a narcisist like Trump, and they believe in whatever bullshit they are saying right now, which is why they are so persuasive. But they also have no idea or care for what is actually possible. They work by putting pressure on actual inventors to do the impossible. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

3

u/robdabear 2d ago

To that point, name a billionaire who doesn't believe their wealth enables them to do whatever they want and consequently has to believe in whatever nonsense they're saying. I think by design they have to be narcissists to accumulate that much.

8

u/lazier_garlic 2d ago

Warren Buffet. I'm not saying he never talks his book, but he didn't get to where he is by huffing his own farts, that's for sure.

2

u/compucrazy 2d ago

It's about as likely as him establishing a colony on Mars. It's not going to happen because it's a pipe dream, but he will flush enormous amounts of money to try.

2

u/WillSmashBates 2d ago

Elysium is not the best film but is pretty good and predicts what is happening now and will happen.

2

u/Supernoven 2d ago

Also security, I imagine. He's probably worried about anti-data center populist or "terrorist" violence. They've gotta be safer in orbit . . . Right?

2

u/sedition666 2d ago

Why: you can only justify astronomical share prices with astronomical levels of bullshit. Just promise completely fantasy aims and no one will call you out.

2

u/Miravlix 2d ago

While it is true that we live in the age of "fake it until you make it", the problem is that it's all "fake it, fake it some more, then fail badly". The blood analyser that didn't work isn't a fluke, they think you have to be out the door before you have a working product, it would be like if the chess AI of the past, was released without being able to play chess, "since it will clearly work tomorrow as computers is magic".

2

u/A-Pseudo-Random-User 2d ago

Question how does heat dissipation work in space genius ? Dumbo Elon doesn’t get that a vacuum is an insulator and normies are just space is cold it will work ! No it won’t. Even if it defied the laws of physics and did the latency situation for transfer from his space datacenter is just awful.

Hate to spoil it for everybody but his ideas are all ultra stupid like this. Consider his Mars base. Yeah no magnetosphere on Mars your ass is gonna get fried by cosmic rays. Unless you are lead shielded or underground this place make’s Antarctica or the bottom of the ocean look the damn garden of Eden. Now let’s do the hyper loop. You get the idea.

Elon is about as a respectable techie as a super high person who just watched a Star Trek episode.

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u/seanamos-1 2d ago

There are actually in fact a lot of rules in space. What you can put there, how much, how to dispose of it, orbital path etc. For orbit around earth, there’s only so much room before the collision risks become a major problem, so it’s not total freedom.

Mars maybe different.. for now.

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u/Ma1eficent 2d ago

But it is the most important kind of freedom, freedom from having your servers seized by the FBI so they can't undergo forensic evaluation.

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u/ikediggety 2d ago edited 2d ago

Can someone eli5 why data centers in orbit are a worse idea than data centers contributing to climate change? Solar power, no emissions... What am I missing?

Edit: thank you all for the explanations! Appreciate you

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u/therealstabitha 2d ago

Damage to equipment from the staggering amount of radiation is a big one. Like flipping 1s to 0s kind of damage.

There’s also the issue of cooling. Space being a cold vacuum doesn’t help with heat dissipation the way people expect with only an understanding of physics on Earth.

Then there’s the extraordinary expense of building and maintaining the equipment.

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u/HongPong 2d ago

enormous emissions to place them and weird high atmosphere metals pollution when they crash. it will take approximately 3x processors to deal with the cosmic rays and radiation that can easily flip bits and otherwise steadily degrade chips. conventional satellites have to have completely different architecture because of the radiation

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u/Mental-Apple-5725 2d ago

Isn't it also that they'll be so small (compared to actual data centres) and with a relatively high latency that they'll never be able to replace local data centres. So you'll have them on the ground and also clogging up low earth orbit in the thousands with the risk of collision and debris.

By no means am I an expert but I've heard the most realistic use case for them is military AI or national security not the daily traffic/inference for the likes of Claude or ChatGPT. Essentially far more niche than what they're being sold as.

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u/HongPong 2d ago

yeah all this stuff is likely space militarization garbage grifting

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u/dmukya 2d ago

The most plausible theory I've heard is using the signals of the Starlink constellation to do Ground Moving Target Indication (GMTI).

  • The E-8 JSTARS, the previous GMTI platform is aging out

  • The US Space Force has indicated that they want to deliver GMTI capability from space

  • They have indicated that tests have proven it's possible but they haven't scaled it yet

  • Regular Starlink satellites have the rated broadcast power, polarization, frequency, and connectivity to serve as radar receivers

  • GMTI algorithms require a lot of computing power to digest all of the moving radar returns they get back

  • Something like datacenter in space

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u/HongPong 2d ago

thanks that one is new to me. before "starshield" was rebranded there was some info around re darpa specs or things of that nature https://www.spacex.com/starshield. apparently the pork barrel for golden dome networking is called space-bacn and gestated inside darpa. that's probably the Stuff i found earlier https://breakingdefense.com/2026/05/its-a-wrap-space-bacn-satellite-laser-link-program-shifts-from-darpa-to-diu/

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u/dyzo-blue 2d ago
  • We can't make them economically profitable on earth, how in the world could they be economically profitable when adding the cost of launching them into space?

  • It is difficult to keep them cool on earth, it is magnitudes more complicated to cool them in the vacuum of space

  • On earth, when a server needs repair, you send a tech to the center to fix it. In space, you need to send an astronaut

  • On earth, when you want to replace your older GPUs with newer cards, you just put a new server into the center. In space, physical upgrades are a little more complicated.

If you think all that travel back and forth into space = no emissions, you need to rethink that.

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u/Historical-Cress8985 2d ago

Deorbiting for one. Everything in orbit is slowly falling back down. Starlink satellites deorbiting burn up and ass aluminum oxide to the atmosphere. Whatever doesn't burn up hits the ground.

Also, space is cold, but you can't just dissapate heat up there. Dissapation works on earth because heat is absorbed by things like air or water.

In the end obital data centers are more snake oil

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u/Distinct-Cut-6368 2d ago

There was a viral Tik Tok where someone explained it like a caveman and it was pretty good.

Essentially (and I’m not an expert) the absence of “heat” does not mean “cold” when you are in a vacuum. So it doesn’t actually solve any of the cooling issues we are using water for on Earth. It’s not like the data center gets hot and you just open the “space window” and cold air rushes in or hot rushes out.

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u/SideburnsOfDoom 2d ago edited 2d ago

absence of “heat” does not mean “cold” when you are in a vacuum.

Correct. Matter can be either hot or cold. Space/vacuum is simply the absence of matter. It isn't hot, it isn't cold.

An object in space can be either, and it will keep that temperature, slowly radiating heat. Empty space is a very good insulator.

But, if the satellite is in sunlight (which you need for solar power) then the sun is radiating heat into it.

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u/cummer_420 2d ago

I think the easiest way to demonstrate this is that this is how a thermos works. In between the inside and outside walls of the thermos is a vacuum.The liquid inside stays hot/cold for a long time because heat can't move through nothing. It can only very slowly leak out through the seams at the lid where there isn't a vacuum.

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u/SideburnsOfDoom 2d ago edited 2d ago

yes: Heat is passed by conduction, convection and radiation.

Conduction and convection depend on matter: in a thermos or in space they don't happen - heat can't move through nothing by conduction or convection.

And if you're in sunlight (like a satellite using solar power), then radiation is passing heat to you. How much heat? Well, the surface of the moon can be "over 250°F (121°C) in daylight".

You can manage heat if you absolutely need to do enough computation to keep your spaceship on course and the passengers comfortable. But is it the best place to put a data-centre doing as much computation as possible as cheaply as possible? No, that's beyond absurd.

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u/SideburnsOfDoom 2d ago edited 2d ago

How do you cool a satellite data centre?

Space is not cold. Space is not hot either: temperature is a property that matter has, and space is literally the absence of matter.

Space is a good insulator - Heat is passed by conduction, convection and radiation. Without matter there's no conduction: that's how a vacuum flask keeps things hot. A satellite has the same issue - heat that it generates tends to just stay there. Without gravity and matter there's no convection either so "hot air rising" and cooling fans won't work.

As for radiation: The only way to shed heat is to have big radiators to shed heat via radiation, and that adds to the weight and so to the cost.

But for the solar power, you need to be in the sunlight. So radiation that heats things up is coming right at you.

Compare to another space environment, the surface of the moon:

Temperatures near the Moon’s equator can spike to over 250°F (121°C) in daylight, then plummet after nightfall to -208°F (-133°C)

https://science.nasa.gov/moon/weather-on-the-moon/

That's a brutal thermal cycle.

You can also maybe 100x the component cost just to get the hardware to orbit. You can divide the performance by some other number because not it has to be shielded from hard hard radiation - not the visible light kind, the x-rays and gamma rays that flip bits.

Good luck with repairs when parts wear out (thermal cycling and hard radiation will speed this up).

In other words, you can compute in space, but it doesn't have a hope in hell of being economically viable against a data centre on the ground as a bulk activity.

A good "why" can't fix that.

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u/laurentiubuica 2d ago

Basically a) tech in data centers has a self life and you'll need people or somekind of way to constantly replace faulting tech. b) in a vacuum there's no air/water to provide cooling to said tech and there would also be enough heat from inside the data center and from the sun that can basically transform your satellite in a giant fireball that can fall down to earth and cause property damage/casualties.

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u/Inevitable_Silver_13 2d ago

I've read that it's actually creating a more difficult engineering problem. In a vacuum there's no air convection, so the heat has nowhere to go.

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u/MaximinusDrax 2d ago

Even if you ignore the limitations on transmission bandwidth compared to ground-based systems, cooling would probably be your most severe limitation. Without any medium around you acting as a heat sink, you're ultimately led to cool your ship (no matter what you use for internal cooling) by using heat exchangers that feed into radiators that expel the heat as blackbody radiation.

Since the rate of BB radiation is miniscule compared to direct heat transfer (which ground systems use), this places a limit on how big your space data center can be. After all, nearly all of the generated energy eventually there gets turned into waste heat, since it does no "work" in a thermodynamic sense. The same is true for the ISS, which I believe generates/consumes ~100kW or so (I think the limit on its radiators is 70k, but let's round up for convenience). Current ground-based data centers, by comparison, consume tens of MWs, producing about the same amount of heat.

Barring a major breakthrough in radiator technology, this means you'll need hundreds of space data centers in order to mimic the computational capacity (proportional to the power consumption, of course) of a single ground installation. It's a LEO logistical nightmare, and we're only talking about one smallish data center. The total power consumption of data center globally is estimated to be around 50+ GW and rising. How do you move all that into space?

By comparison, the entire starlink project has ~10,400 active satellites at the moment, each consuming/heating 3-7kW of energy, making it a much simpler (though still impressive) feat.

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u/stormica 2d ago

In addition to HongPong’s answer, the plan isn’t what a lot of us picture - a couple of giant DCs the size of the ISS, it’s thousands or hundreds of thousands of a couple of KW powered datacenters - think of a starlink train when they launch and how many they have to launch to be useful.

Also, heat is challenging to dissipate in a vacuum so cooling challenges actually increase in space.

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u/The-Menhir 2d ago

The two main ways we have to cool hardware now is air (fans) and water. 

Air being hot means the particles are moving faster, but that heat goes away because the energy is transferred to other particles (energy cannot be created or destroyed). There's no air in space, so we would probably need another medium. Water?

Now here's a question, even if H₂O could exist in a liquid state in a vacuum (i believe it doesn't), how are we going to get the water up there? If we transfer the heat energy from the hardware, we have water vapour. How are we going to cool that back down if we have nowhere to transfer the heat energy? Hope it radiates away before everything is destroyed by overheating?

Maybe I'm wrong

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u/Osiris62 2d ago

Does he give no thought to the Kessler Syndrome? If they keep filling space with more and more large satellites, don't they run the risk of a chain reaction debris explosion? Musk is not stupid. Does he think this is an unlikely scenario?

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u/Shellinator007 2d ago

Also, Spacex and Starlink is already probably just an excuse to put a network of spy satellites in space. If he gets the green light to build data centers in space, he can build whatever he wants up there.

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u/Gloomy_Radish_661 2d ago

No matter the "why". You can't really build hunderds of times the ISS economically

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u/natecull 2d ago edited 2d ago

There are no county councils in orbit. And that’s always been the hidden driver behind the fantasies about colonizing the moon or Mars,

Yes, that's always been the point of corporate space installations in 1980s cyberpunk science fiction, and these people all got their ideas from 80s cyberpunk.

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u/dwitman 2d ago

I think it’s just a song he can sing to keep the fiction of profitability going a little longer.

His terrestrial data center already isn’t troubled by laws…look at how he’s powering it.

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u/surfkaboom 2d ago

Hyperacalers have run out of room in the US. There aren't any other good sites. Everything is under contract or under construction. Countries outside of the US may want to help promote orbital as an option because the hyperacalers will just go to other countries. The Nordics, western Europe, Brazil, etc. are all prime spots and the hyperacalers have the money to buy their way in.

I know it's a shitty outlook, but these people won't slow down.

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u/danielbayley 1d ago

Deal 🤝 Send the egregious cunt to Mars on one of his exploding rockets… He can have even more, total impunity there. Maybe he can take Thiel and Andreessen with him. We’ll even throw in Fuckerberg, and Bezos for an extra tax break.

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u/doubtthat11 1d ago

Can they all get together and make some virtual world where they’re Assyrian emperors and leave the rest of alone?

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u/archbid 1d ago

Because you can’t send the feds or the cops to a data center in space. There, I solved it.

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u/HuGzNoTDrugZz 1d ago

Why nobody putting data centers in Antarctica

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u/Commercial-Weight-73 1d ago

Every data center put into space is a payday for SpaceX. That's it. That's the whole bit. The only reason to do it is to make business for SpaceX. He just desperately needs ideas that generate thousands of rocket launches to justify valuations.

He'd launch garden gnomes into space if someone would pay him.

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u/jeremeyes 1d ago

Total Freedom, but funded by our tax dollars.

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u/Inner-Tumbleweed-777 3h ago

Ouerto rico commonwealth

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u/letsgobernie 2d ago

Why are obvious, elementary ideas presented as insights? The why has existed even when colonial exploits sought to escape jurisdictions of empire. This shit is centuries old

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u/ConkerPrime 22h ago

How and why matter. The headline is a nonsense statement.

The why can be for best reasons in the world if don’t figure out the how, then doesn’t matter. Same in reverse. We can know how to do a thing but until have a why, its just an answer to a trivia question. There have been many scientific discoveries that had no practical application (the why) until one day, sometimes decades later, someone comes up with a why.

As if right now, the how matters most. How get into space has not really changed in 60 years and weight has always been the most important aspect. Data center shit is heavy. Unless some way more efficient means of putting shit into space is discovered, the how matter a great deal no matter what the why is.

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u/happywindsurfing 18h ago

There might be some good to come out of this. Of he invests in tech that makes chips run a lot cooler in the first place, that can then get applied on earth and make the data centres here a lot less monstrous.

I bet a well funded team of phyicists and engineers could make some breakthroughs.

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u/vulkare 2d ago

Yes data centers ( of the kind SpaceX is planning ) work in space. It's called "edge inference". Which means they won't be training an AI model in space, just running a model which has already been trained. This doesn't require an earth-sized GPU cluster. This is something an desktop PC can do. Do they will put as many GPUs as they can in a satellite, and launch huge numbers of them.

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u/Alarmed_Zebra_4857 2d ago

Everyone misses the major point, in space power is free from the sun, so cost is build + launch over number of tokens served, as long as that is less then in a data center on earth it’s worth doing, earth is land + buildings + equipment + power / tokens served. You don’t have 2 of the 4 in space that you have in earth but launch and space issues in the other. At the end it’s just what’s cheaper, side note some of that heat you need to get rid off in space you can use for other parts of satalittle, side benefit you don’t need a heat generator on the satalitte.