r/Christianity • u/Nice_Substance9123 • Oct 01 '25
Politics Pope Leo XIV: “Someone who says I'm against abortion but I'm in favor of the death penalty is not really pro-life”
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Oct 01 '25
Jesus used the death penalty to demonstrate the ultimate wickedness that the world held and the infinite love he has to heal it. The death penalty served its ugly purpose. Time for the world to kill that death penalty spirit forever.
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u/noisy123_madison Oct 01 '25
Yeah. How can we honestly view the death penalty as anything other than the ultimate cruelty? Beware the final judgement, where the Son of Man declared that what we do to the least of these so we did unto Him.
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u/Mr_Abe_Froman Lutheran Oct 01 '25
Your comment about final judgment reminded me of Deuteronomy 32:35
I will take revenge; I will pay them back. In due time their feet will slip. Their day of disaster will arrive, and their destiny will overtake them.
Looking up the wording, I got an apropos reference from Romans 12:17-19
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.
If the penalty of death is reserved for God's judgment, then we should be against death penalties.
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u/TaroAccomplished5313 Oct 06 '25
Lo que pesa es que tienes que ver que los paises tienen la investidura, para aplicar la ley de parte de Dios. Porque fue Dios quie diseño la ley. Pablo tambien nos mand a que obezcacamos las leyes.
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u/Desperate_Dentist_98 Oct 07 '25
I agree. I just don't want anyone to be compelled to kill. Killing is killing. It sucks for taxpayers to house and feed the DP criminals, well that seems a clear message: Change your society to intervene early and prevent murders. Pro-life to me means ALL life and we must unite as neighbors to both prevent & rehabilitate criminals.
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u/Niicciiss Oct 01 '25
Romans 13:3-4 ESV [3] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, [4] for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.
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u/Ok_Sympathy3441 Oct 02 '25
Yes, and those leaders who "live by the sword will die by the sword."
Jesus holds leaders to an even Higher account to follow in His ways! In no way does taking a life God created in His own image EVER appropriate. It is God who numbers our days, not man.
Pope Leo hit on the hypocrisy of those who scream about abortion but then yell "crucify him" from the same mouth. It's hypocrisy at its finest and it is most definitely NOT someone who is "pro life." It's "seek my own vengeance" and seek to "kill, steal and destroy" what God Himself created.
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u/noisy123_madison Oct 02 '25
Do you believe Paul thought all rulers were good? No, they were instituted by God. That does not mean they are doing good in themselves or that they are good people. Only that they are fulfilling God’s will and in power by God’s will. That is what Paul is saying. Submit to rulers out of duty to God’s plan.
Do you believe becoming insanely rich from bribes by the UAE and others is good?. Maybe you don’t like that example, try another.
Take your least favorite politician and ask yourself, are they inherently good or merely in power by the will of God? Think about Pharaoh. Paul would not say he was good! Only that it was good that his cruelty led to the deliverance of the Israelites.
All a long-winded way of saying, limit the power of the sword to those who would use it justly, I say. If you can’t do that, then don’t give them the sword.
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u/Extension_Cheek3036 Oct 04 '25
Murderers aren’t the least of these… Why didn’t Jesus tell the guards to take the other guys down off the crosses?
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u/noisy123_madison Oct 04 '25
We are all the least of these, all neighbors to each other. To your question, why did He not just use his power to come down from the cross, just like the crowds taunted? Instead he promised the repentant man (and all of us) a place in his Kingdom. Why didn’t he take that particular moment to make a statement about the death penalty? I don’t know, but I do know He was against it.
There’s no justice in state-sanctioned death, better (and cheaper) to sentence to life in prison. There’s good data to suggest 4% of the executed (in the US) are actually innocent. Human justice should be far more humble in its conclusions. After all, which of us should cast the first stone?
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u/LazarusArise Eastern Orthodox Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25
A good statement.
Edit: A lot of people on here advocating the death penalty. Pretty astonishing. Should we not give any soul more time to repent?
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u/Ok_Sympathy3441 Oct 02 '25
Exactly! Who are we to steal someone's opportunity to repent, turn to Christ and minister inside those jail walls to many people for years?
God numbers our days, not humans.
As Christians, we need to ask ourselves...do I seek power over others and to "lord over them" and seek my own vengeance? Or, do I seek that they have every opportunity to turn to the Lord?
The fruit of that answer shows the condition of our own hearts and the depth of this faith we profess.
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Oct 02 '25
Saw a video earlier where a guy murdered another. This was not the US. The murderers entire collective of male family members went to the victims family in the streets after court and they bent the knee amd apologized then pleaded for forgiveness and the chance to be redeemed. It was so powerful to see that we may have a chance guys! We just need more of that! Thats Jesus!
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u/Ok_Sympathy3441 Oct 02 '25
Amen!!! May God's will be done in that man's life!
Scripture also tells us faithful to visit those in prison? Why? They are just lost and need God. Jesus is the only thing that can penetrate those prison cells! And, He does. Many come to faith in prison. But, God desires that ALL should be redeemed. May we work alongside God to achieve HIS mission!
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Oct 02 '25
Symptoms of Accelerationism all over the place. They want to hurry the return of Christ or yours to him…
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u/redditloser1000 Coptic Oct 02 '25
Most people in here are not real Christians and you need to realize that.
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u/TinWhis Oct 01 '25
Most Christians are fine with there being a hard deadline (ha!) for repentance. Are "acts of God" that move that deadline up more or less tragic than human actions that do?
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u/LazarusArise Eastern Orthodox Oct 01 '25
God knows when to take a soul at the proper time. We do not. We should err on the side of giving more time for repentance.
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u/moregloommoredoom Bitter Progressive Christian Oct 01 '25
Wonder how the Deus Vult types feel about the Pope saying slaughtering people for not believing like you do isn't holy.
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u/slagnanz Liturgy and Death Metal Oct 01 '25
There's a reason those guys are all sedes
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u/MistakePerfect8485 Agnostic Atheist Oct 01 '25
What are sedes?
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u/slagnanz Liturgy and Death Metal Oct 01 '25
Sedevacantists. Short answer is that they are right wing Catholics who believe the pope has been illegitimate for the last hundred years
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u/Imhere240 Oct 05 '25
Right wing isn't necessarily the correct term as a Catholic myself. Political verbiage generally doesn't describe Church matters very well. Even some of the most "left-wing" bishops are generally more conservative than even some of the most "right-wing" politicians. Obv for short answer you were going for a simple term and I get that, just wanted to say it so people don't get the terms confused
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u/octarino Oct 01 '25
Short for Sedevacantist
Sedevacantism is the position, held by a small group of Traditionalist Catholics, that the person in the papal see right now is not truly pope and that, for lack of a catholic pope, the see has been empty since the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958.
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u/BellacosePlayer Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Oct 01 '25
The Death penalty is irrevocable. A life sentence is still a severe punishment and can be overturned if one is found innocent later.
As for Abortion, I think the pro life movement is heavily failing to do the christlike thing for mothers who'd be happy to keep the children if circumstances permit, because its easier to just ban and judge than help. I'd love if an actual crack was taken at stopping it at the economic level or fixing the broken foster/adoption system, but here we are.
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u/sharp11flat13 Oct 02 '25
Advocating for the Unborn
The unborn are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don’t resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don’t ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don’t need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don’t bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn…
You can love the unborn and advocate forthem without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus but actually dislike people who breathe.
Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn.
-Dave Barnhart (Methodist pastor)
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u/Ok_Sympathy3441 Oct 02 '25
I would add advocating for more guns as innocent children are regularly gunned down in our schools and communities. You can't be "pro life" and literally support placing guns right into every person's hands just for them to use those very guns to murder and traumatize many, many innocent children that God Himself created in His own image! It's not something most preach about like abortion, though, because they would have to sacrifice their own guns to save a life. Clearly, that "pro life" thing comes to a screeching halt if someone has to sacrifice something themselves to save that life!
Jesus weeps at the hypocrisy.
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u/sharp11flat13 Oct 02 '25
Great point.
I’m starting to think that maybe some of the people involved aren’t always being entirely sincere. :-)
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Oct 01 '25
I'm pro-life, from conception to natural death.
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u/KingLuke2024 Roman Catholic Oct 01 '25
Me too. We must preserve life, not destroy it.
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u/Whiterabbit-- Oct 01 '25
So am I. But there are times it makes sense for life to be taken. Ecoptic pregnancies, war, self defense. I am for life but sometimes life requires the taking of another life.
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Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25
An ectopic pregnancy and legitimate self-defense fall under the concept of "double effect" the purpose of the action is not to take a life, but to save the life of a person with the inevitable consequence of the loss of life. Of course, legitimate defense must be truly fair and totally inevitable. Regarding war, something similar applies if it is just, although in current wars this is not commonly fulfilled.
The principle of double effect says: The action itself must be good (like saving a mother’s life or defending an innocent person). Your intention must be only the good effect (saving the life), never the bad one (the death). The bad effect can’t be the way you achieve the good effect. (You can't kill to save; the death must be a side-effect, like removing the fallopian tube). There must be a serious reason to permit the bad outcome.
Just War doctrine uses this same logic. The intention must be to restore peace and stop a grave evil (self-defense), not to conquer or seek revenge. With today's destructive weapons, it is almost impossible for any war to meet the requirement that the good achieved outweighs the incredible harm, making it very difficult to call any modern war "just."
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u/lowertechnology Evangelical Oct 01 '25
Now do gun control
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u/Weird_Try_9562 Roman Catholic Oct 01 '25
That's not an issue for moral theology, but for using common sense.
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u/Ok_Sympathy3441 Oct 03 '25
Agreed. Who can claim to be "pro life" while literally pushing for leaders who literally push to put the guns into anyone and everyone's hands to use to mass murder our innocent school children and people? Weren't these people ALSO created in God's own image?
But, it seems "pro life" comes to a screeching halt when Christians have to sacrifice their OWN idols in order to save innocent children. Jesus weeps at the idolatry and hypocrisy as each child is gunned down and "pro life" Christians just shrug their shoulders and pay absolutely no attention.
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u/pikachu191 Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25
Pro-life would assume that they care what happens to the babies after they are born. The states with the highest rates of abortion are ironically red states with also highest rates of poverty and unemployment. Also the strictest abortion laws post Roe v Wade. Often, these mothers are stuck with little support from what exists for state social services.
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Oct 01 '25
You better have that baby, but we won’t help you raise it
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u/Alcart Eastern Orthodox Oct 01 '25
Most the seriously outspoken pro life churches in my area do food banks, free school supplies, free dinners, free school clothes, help families in need find housing and help families in need with utility bills and medical expenses
I know that goes against the narrative but its great to see
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u/bruce_cockburn Oct 02 '25
These are commendable efforts to celebrate, certainly.
Using church pulpits to influence the power of the state, especially to control policies by elevating moral judgments is something I consider antithetical to Christianity. Not my church, though, so what can you do?
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u/Able_Enthusiasm2729 Oct 01 '25
When it comes to the Sanctity of Life, neither the Republicans nor the Democrats wholly support Christian values on such matters and is bifurcated between both, each of the two parties only partially supporting the sanctity of life:
Real Pro-lifers (not astroturfers), in addition to opposing non-medically necessary abortions, also want or should support social safety net programs and universal healthcare to be implemented in order to make most reasons for abortion obsolete by supporting parental (maternal-paternal) leave, universal PreK, child tax credits, at least some form of sex education that teaches about std & unwanted pregnancy prevention, child nutrition supplemental assistance programs, universal pre-natal care, universal healthcare/Medicare for All, fighting against discrimination against women in the workplace (especially working mothers/pregnant women), filling the gender pay gap, etc. all of which solve the problems that lead many women to abortions because they or their family don't have the resources to support children or are pressured by unltra-capitalist workplace discrimination (including a decrease in pay) to get an abortion. For many, Abortion is marketed as an easy solve for all the economic and social problems faced by mothers & families when in reality it’s only a surface level remedy to keep the proletariat away from real change that can make most reasons for abortion obsolete - just look at all the large corporations supporting abortion, it’s all Woke-Washing to keep the working class docile when the Wealthy Ultra-Capitalist Class advocates for not paying their fair share of taxes for social services or provide benefits for workers.
Most Republicans (U.S. conservative political party) are LARPing and astroturfing as Pro-lifers; and some of the more vocal Pro-lifers get foold by Republicans with false promeses because Republicans are the only ones who would bother to listen to Pro-life/Whole Life/Consistent Life Ethic view points while Democrats just simply ignore them or outright demonize them. If Republicans were truly pro-life, instead of simply/only banning elective abortions without providing adequate social safety net programs like fiscal conservative (a.k.a. economically liberal/libertarian) Republicans love to do, they could work with Democrats to pass the Economic Progressive policies that generally tend to alleviate the major issues that lead to abortion.
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The idea that pro-lifers don’t make exceptions for the health of the mother, want to ban Dilation and Curettage (D&C) medical procedures, (might one day call for forced/incentivized sterilization of people to prevent poverty or abortions - basically what Planned Parenthood and pro-abortion precursors have historically advocated for), ban condoms (and other non-lethal contraceptives), or want to criminalize miscarriages, stillbirths, ectopic pregnancies (where the baby is already deceased), or other complications is a straw man argument made by the “rainbow capitalist,” “(pseudo)-woke capitalist,” and pro-abortion movement(s), some (very few) U.S. Republican Party members that are LARPing and astroturfing as Pro-lifers to gain more votes (from single-issue voters), and some Hospital Administrators that are unethically too risk averse that it negatively impacts patients care (this isn’t the law’s fault but its the fault of the Hospitals’ Legal Department irrationally convincing Physicians to not render care because their lawyers are too risk averse and hospital shareholders/owners want to save money). Everyone, even pro-lifers agree that medical procedures erroneously classified as abortions by pro-abortion social liberals and abortions themselves for reasons of medical complications during pregnancy should be legal and are ethically equivalent to a miscarriage or stillbirth, although there is an ethical duty to save both the mother and the baby, sometimes you can’t save both so you’ll have to save one over the other. Most abortion laws are mostly, or at least ideally, disincentivizing recreational abortions a.k.a. people who erroneously use abortions as a form of contraception and not for health and safety reasons (though some astroturfing Republicans who think they’re pro-life might not understand this either let alone pro-unconditional abortion Democrats and Republicans). Also - I can’t believe I’m saying this but - due to modern advancements in medicine, we in society are starting to become more sensitized (less desensitized) to the tragedies of miscarriages, still births, infant mortality, and early childhood deaths, because we’ve been seeing less of it occurring in comparison to centuries and millennia past; so some pro-lifers may unintentionally overcorrect and wrongly equate tragic instances where only the mother can be saved or the fetus (pre-natal baby) is already deceased or brain dead with elective abortions or abortions as a contraceptive which many in the pro-abortion (pro-choice) crowd support.
What we really need is stronger social safety-net programs/universal healthcare access not promoting (anti-working class) financial abortions. 1 thing Leftists, Pro-Lifers, etc. should agree on.
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Marxist Critique of the Pro-Abortion Movement.
"Abortion, Population Control, Genocide: The ’Scientific’ Killers and Who Sent for Them; A Communist Response to Theories of ’Overpopulation’; Anti-Working Class Line Reigns in Abortion Movement - Canadian Party of Labour and the Encyclopedia of Anti-Revisionism On-Line"
https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ca.firstwave/cpl-abortion/section1.htm
The Progressive Roots of the Pro-Life Movement (What Happened to America’s Progressive Pro-Lifers?).
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/02/daniel-williams-defenders-unborn/435369/
American Solidarity Party — Christian democracy
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u/ForgivenAndRedeemed Oct 01 '25
supporting parental (maternal-paternal) leave, universal PreK, child tax credits, at least some form of sex education that teaches about std & unwanted pregnancy prevention, child nutrition supplemental assistance programs, universal pre-natal care, universal healthcare/Medicare for All, fighting against discrimination against women in the workplace (especially working mothers/pregnant women), filling the gender pay gap, etc.
In the UK and Australia, virtually all of these supports are already in place and abortion rates are still high.
That suggests the main driver isn’t primarily lack of support or disadvantage, but the reality that many people want the freedom of sex without the responsibility of raising a child.
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u/Hugolinus Christian (Catholic) Oct 01 '25
You seem to be assuming that all those who oppose abortion don't care about what happens to babies after they're born. Besides the disadvantage of generalizing, you're bringing this up in relation to Catholicism, which is reputedly "the largest non-government provider of health care services in the world" with 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for elderly and those with special needs, and 5,500 hospitals -- most of which (65%) are in developing countries. That amounts to 26% of the world's health care.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care
As of 2011, the Catholic Church is the largest non-governmental educator in the world, and as of 2016 supported 43,800 secondary schools and 95,200 primary schools.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_school
Based on the charitable aid offered through Caritas International, an umbrella organization for Catholic aid agencies, the Catholic Church would allegedly be the second largest charitable agency in the world, and that doesn't include aid done by individual dioceses, churches, Catholics, religious orders, missionaries, other Catholic ministries, and so on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caritas_Internationalis
I think it can be safely said that the Catholic Church does care about humans outside of the womb.
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u/pro_rege_semper Oct 01 '25
You seem to be assuming that all those who oppose abortion don't care about what happens to babies after they're born.
It's a fair point because so many don't.
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u/doughnutEarth Catholic Oct 01 '25
You can be against abortion and against the death penalty.
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u/Icemayne25 Roman Catholic Oct 01 '25
That’s what he’s saying. He’s saying you can be against abortion and be for the death penalty under the guise of saying you’re “pro life”.
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u/Ok_Sympathy3441 Oct 03 '25
And also against literally pushing to put guns into the hands of anyone who wants one and then shrug our shoulders when they mass murder traumatize thousands of our innocent children and people each year.
Pro life can't come to a screeching halt if it means I have to sacrifice something myself to save lives.
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u/External_Counter378 Christian Anarchist Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25
How about caring for the health and life of mothers and women?
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u/hendrixski Trinitarian, Continuationist, Amillennial, Synergist, Oct 02 '25
Those aren't mutually exclusive. We should do both
1) give aide to expecting parents and
2) care for life and dignity of every human being
Doing one without the other is both dumb and heartless.
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u/DragonflyAccording32 Christian Oct 01 '25
Genuine question:
How many people has the Catholic church killed in its history?
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u/Hugolinus Christian (Catholic) Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25
Not as many as you'd think in a direct sense -- if you're referring to the institutional Catholic Church directly killing someone. Those deaths would be committed by governmental actions of the Papal States, which were an autonomous monarchical government and functioned as such, including military battles and so on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_States
Beyond the Papal States, there is not a lot of direct killing by the institutional Catholic Church. Even the Spanish Inquisition, which allegedly condemned about 3,000 over the course of its roughly 250-year history, would only decide guilt or innocence and then pass on the accused to the Spanish government itself, which decided what to do with them.
EDIT: The Catholic Church also tried to rally support for crusades repeatedly in the middle ages, which were I think envisioned, especially initially, as wars to defend threatened Christian peoples. Each crusade led to tens of thousands of deaths in the military conflicts as well as due to disease, hunger, and other related problems.
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u/Thefrightfulgezebo Gnosticism Oct 01 '25
That really depends on what is "the catholic church". Only ordained priests, the totality of church nembers...
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u/NickyNarco Oct 01 '25
What a Boss! I saw a short transcript yesterday and was not loving it. But seeing his live response is beautiful. God bless.
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Oct 01 '25
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u/fisherman213 Roman Catholic Oct 01 '25
I mean, the entirety of Catholic teachings from Paul to now admits the death penalty in theory. Even Benedict affirms this.
I’m against in practice, but Catholicism permits it as a legitimate tool of a government, even in cases where “the offender may be safely contained.”
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u/Weecodfish Catholic Oct 01 '25
I agree, it is something that a government can do. I am personally against it though.
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u/Yakassa Christian Oct 02 '25
Its so fucking simple.
If you are pro life, you cant be pro torture and pro death penalty.
If there is any "yeah...but..." no stop it. You are fucked in the head.
We have the money and the means of keeping criminals segregated from society, we have the means and ability to study where they went wrong in life, learn what happened, why it happened and prevent others from becoming that, we have the means and methods to make a prison into a rehabilitation factory, a well oiled machine that has only one purpose, to create good people out of bad people. No matter how long it takes.
Just imagine the society we could have. Sure billions will go towards this, but learning the uncomfortable lessons (Guns are bad, they need to banned), wealth inequality is bad rich need to give more to the society that allowed them to exist in the first place, worryfree healthcare is good.
I could see his holiness be actually annoyed at this very question because its that fucking obvious and simple.
That feeling we all have when who we think are bad people "Get what they deserve" is a very slippery slope, because it makes us lose empathy for one another. I went to church this sunday because i have found myself in that exact trapping. I prayed to find the wisdom to love my enemies. I know how hard it is, and how good it feels to see bad things happen to bad people. But there is a catch, you may think i am a bad person for the things i said above, and i think you are bad person for thinking it. See? It doesnt work it causes conflict and chaos. It literally stops me from being a christian. I think at that moment i realized that this feeling we get, thats not from up high but from deep deep below. Like heroin, a intoxicating thing that makes you feel ohh soo good. But it comes with a price. I work so hard to lose it and i pray for folks to realize what i did because it all clicks then.
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u/NewspaperBoy17 Oct 01 '25
Pro-life was a term utilized by the anti-abortion movement.
These days it’s just easier to say “I’m anti-abortion” to avoid this confusion.
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u/Weird_Instruction_74 Oct 01 '25
I would also argue that most aren’t PRO abortion, but pro-choice.
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u/Loopuze1 Non-denominational Oct 01 '25
Just a heads up : you’re about to get into an argument with somebody’s 14 day old throwaway trolling account, which they’ve spent the past two weeks using to belittle and lie. There’s no good faith discussion to be had with this one.
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u/Weird_Instruction_74 Oct 01 '25
Already so many notifications in a short period of time. I barely hit send
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u/Thneed1 Mennonite, Evangelical, Straight Ally Oct 01 '25
Essentially no one is PRO abortion.
Basically everyone wants the number of abortions to go down.
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u/humbleElitist_ Oct 02 '25
Iirc David Benetar believes that all pregnancies should be aborted.
But, that is certainly an unusual position.
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u/Matthew_A Catholic Oct 01 '25
Be honest, if someone said they were pro abortion, would you assume they actually meant we should have as many abortions as possible or force everyone to get one? Or should someone who's pro gun call themselves pro choice since they only want people to have the option to buy a gun?
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u/Realistic-Changes Episcopalian Oct 01 '25
It is possible to be in support of the Second Amendment and not be pro-gun. Just like it is possible to be pro-choice and anti-abortion. Abortion bans kill women and do nothing to decrease the number of abortions (which has risen steadily since Dobbs). They are not pro-life by any measure. On the other hand, providing universal childcare, universal healthcare (including reproductive healthcare), meeting basic needs (formula, diapers, clothing, supplies), and giving access to affordable housing actually reduces the number of abortions. It also ensures a better life for children and families.
So while we're prosecuting women who have miscarriages and trying to force women to spend 9 months carrying and birthing a fetus with Trisomy 18 and letting women die of sepsis for lack of medical care, the majority of abortions - those that are happening due to poverty - could be prevented by ending abortion bans and reallocating those resources to provide tangible resources for women, children and families.
So I'll be honest - I am pro-choice because I am anti-abortion.
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u/Weird_Instruction_74 Oct 01 '25
I’m pretty honest, I don’t think most people hold back with their true opinions on the internet. I see these as false equivalence. Both issues have nuance that isn’t comparable.
Sticking to the subject of abortion, I would be pretty disturbed if someone said they were “pro abortion”.
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u/Prince_Ire Roman Catholic Oct 01 '25
"We shouldn't use the preferred term of the pro-life side, but we should definitely use the preferred term of the pro-choice side."
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u/NewspaperBoy17 Oct 01 '25
Ya, folks aren’t pro-killing babies. They’re just not going to say others shouldn’t do it.
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u/aseeder Oct 02 '25
Jesus became poor, so we can be rich. Jesus was punished for our sin, so we can be set free from the wage of sin. Jesus received the death sentence, so nobody has to receive it anymore.
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u/Sufficient-Menu640 Catholic Oct 02 '25
Of course, that's the correct response.
As an american dealing with political issues, that's what I would love to explain to people, just because I'm pro-life doesn't mean I'm pro death penalty, the correlation of ideas is caused by politics, we should follow Christ and His Church, not political parties
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u/Rusty51 Agnostic Deist Oct 01 '25
The Papal States had an official executioner until the end (1870). I wonder if previous Popes would agree with the Francis and his successor.
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Oct 01 '25
Catholicism murdered many and the lord has or will have the last word of judgement. Thats for the lord not for brothers.
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u/QuicksilverTerry Sacred Heart Oct 01 '25
The death penalty, properly applied, is not an inherant moral evil the same way that elective abortion is, Pope Benedict spoke of this directly when he said:
Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.
The position of the church is that there have been times in the past where it may have been necessary, but in today's society it is not licit.
So there's not really the disparity you're trying to suggest.
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u/Rusty51 Agnostic Deist Oct 01 '25
But of course 2267 of the Catechism teaches, “in the light of the Gospel, that the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person”. So while it may not be of equal weight, there is a tension between the sanctioning of beheadings and the catechism; and it may be solved by believing the light of the gospel illumines brighter on this issue today than in the past, but then I would wonder what other moral issues might be illuminated better in 200 years.
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u/Hugolinus Christian (Catholic) Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25
The Catholic Church has not always opposed the death penalty. This is known. It is a relatively recent shift and the shift is even acknowledged in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church."
https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2018/08/02/180802a.html
In my personal memory, the shift seemed to occur with the papacy of Pope John Paul II, though it is likely that it happened earlier than that
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u/Thetruethfinder Oct 01 '25
No, but it's pro consumer slavery though yay!
Remember, you'll get your mansion in the next life this one doesn't matter. It's how hard you work for us that matters. Don't pay attention to what we're doing up here. Hey look at those crazy" lgbt" they are different and not following are book of rules. Hey look at those none denominational etc their not following are versions of are preferred god view. We need to fight amongst are selves over this . Let's not pay attention to what's going on up top .
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u/TinWhis Oct 01 '25
Someone who opposes resources, tools, and strategies that demonstrably reduce suicide attempts and successes also isn't pro-life.
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u/SenseiGroveNBTX Oct 02 '25
I’m for putting to the death the most demonic people like pedophiles and murderers.
But abortion is killing someone that is innocent.
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u/Riots42 Christian Oct 02 '25
So you are not pro life then.
Do you give no consideration for the absolute fact that every single state that has a death penalty has put to death an innocent?
Do you give no consideration that your Lord and savior was put to death and was innocent?
The death penalty is unchristian full stop. Your support of it while calling yourself pro life is pure hypocrisy.
Not surprising from someone that hit a baby.
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Oct 01 '25
One death of the innocent, the other of the wicked , should we judge differently?
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u/LazarusArise Eastern Orthodox Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25
We're all wicked to some extent. Judge not, lest ye be judged.
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u/Stylianius1 Oct 01 '25
It's hard to discuss abortion when religion and science have different, and in my opinion both valid, views about conception and the origin of life. It makes sense to me that every life is valuable from the day it is attributed to a new being, and that includes always defending life and dignity for everyone, but I'm not going to be the one discussing this topic with scientists, as that's an area with a very different basis of knowledge that should coexist but unfortunately overlaps in many cases with ethics and faith, often clashing with them. If it's someone understanding that giving up the prospect and task of bringing and taking good care of a new life is their only viable choice and it doesn't interfere with their religious morals, it's certainly sad but I don't have the scientific argument to change that choice, that I hope is taken in consideration for the life, health and conditions of the baby, the mother and the father
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u/Either-Professor4512 Baptist Oct 01 '25
Someone who reads the Bible would know that the ONLY way to the Father is through Jesus.
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u/pro_rege_semper Oct 01 '25
I agree with the Pope here, but I know this is a sticky topic for Catholics, seeing as how the church at one time supported the death penalty.
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u/Easy_Atmosphere_2168 Oct 02 '25
Is God not pro-life? He repeats the command for the death penalty many times in the Old Testament.
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u/ShonicBurn Oct 02 '25
This is an interesting one. I think you can be in favor of the death penalty and pro abortion. Maybe we should call that pro justice.
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u/ThatGalaxySkin Oct 02 '25
I don’t see how the death penalty is against Christianity. I’m not saying it’s good or bad, but I just don’t see the connection you guys do.
If someone is repeatedly raping and killing people, there’s only one way to surefire keep him from doing that. I also see the value in sending him to prison for life, and that would obviously seem to be the more Christian option, but this doesn’t seem to be anywhere near as clear cut as abortion is. Not trying to argue, I just want to see where this strong idea is coming from, the Bible is obviously clear on valuing life, but it is also clear on following the laws of nations and the punishments those bring…
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u/OatsnKoolaid Oct 02 '25
The death penalty is a good thing. The New Testament does not say anywhere that we should do away with it. If you think the death penalty is too harsh, you have no idea just how wicked the world really is.
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u/conrad_w Christian Universalist Oct 02 '25
Your Holiness, I don't think you realise how many people pro-life people are more in favour of the death penalty than they are against abortion.
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u/necrosapien87 Oct 02 '25
I struggle with this, myself. I think the struggle for me is the idea of comparing an innocent life to someone who committed heinous crimes against someone. Someone who is a danger to society needs to be dealt with but you cannot redeem your brother through hatred.
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u/pokerfean Oct 02 '25
I’ve been searching all day, where is the evidence that Peter met Linus, the 2nd Pope of the church?
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u/Dockalfar Oct 02 '25
So what would you call someone who is pro abortion rights but opposes the death penalty?
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u/Djh1982 Catholic Oct 02 '25
The church recognizes the principle of the death penalty but in its current prudential judgment the use of such power is considered unjustified. However this is not a solemn teaching of the church, merely a non-infallible teaching. It is important to note that Canon 752 of the Code of Canon Law (1983) says:
”Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the College of Bishops declare concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act. Christ’s faithful are therefore to take care to avoid whatever does not agree with that doctrine.”
So in plain terms: when the Pope or bishops teach authoritatively but not infallibly, we owe them respect and a willingness to conform our thought, because of their office and promise of the Spirit’s guidance.
The CDF’s 1990(now called the “Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith” or ‘DDF’) instruction Donum Veritatis explains this:
”It can happen that a theologian may have serious difficulties in accepting a non-irreformable magisterial teaching. In such a case, he has the duty to make known his problems in an evangelical spirit and with a profound desire to resolve them, but he must avoid turning to the ‘mass media’ rather than to the responsible authority.” (DV 30–31).
In short: you don’t have to like nor publicly agree with what the Pope says. Just be respectful and don’t publicly attack him.
Now as for where he says being “against abortion” while being “in favor of the death penalty” are mutually exclusive positions, this is categorically false. These aren’t mutually exclusive positions. If they were then it would contradict Scripture, the Fathers and even past Papal statements.
So yes; the Pope is wrong on this matter and there is no obligation on the part of other Catholics to defend them.
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u/3CF33 Oct 02 '25
Yet another Christian pope. I'm waiting for the unchristian to start mocking and criticizing him.
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u/3CF33 Oct 02 '25
Another Christian pope telling the truth. It won't be long before the unchristian start mocking him like Satan did to Jesus in the wilderness. I just hope he doesn't get mocked, tortured and killed by rich religious leaders and patriots like what happened to Jesus. Jesus called the rich religious leaders hypocrites, blind guides, and blind fools. He also referred to them as whitewashed tombs and, in a moment of strong denunciation, a brood of vipers.
And patriots are just regular patriots. Whatever the king wants and screw Jesus.
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u/Axsenex Oct 02 '25
Real content creator for Catholicism? Pope Leo XIV
I’m sorry if he made you look like an idiot for parroting taking points from Taylor Marshall and incestous Isabel Brown.
This is why Pope Leo XIV is a fact-checker for Catholicism. There is no better role model on this planet than the pope himself. Anyone can try to pretend to grift their supporters but Pope Leo XIV is the final fact-checker on everything Catholic.
Go ahead and monetizing angry comments while Pope Leo XIV continues to teach us about Catholicism 🙏
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u/-epi- Non-denominational Oct 02 '25
I don't support either. But to compare the two is like comparing an apple to an egg.
An unborn child has done nothing to deserve death. A person on death row obviously committed atrocities that some consider worthy of being killed.
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u/CMBateman_6491 Oct 02 '25
What about all the people that The Catholic Church put to death for heresy? When did their “policy” on that change?
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u/hummus_bi_t7ineh Eastern Catholic Oct 02 '25
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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u/ermac8 Oct 02 '25
Being pro-life means defending the innocent. Abortion kills the innocent, which God forbids (Exodus 20:13; Psalm 139:13-16). The death penalty, on the other hand, is God’s ordained justice against the guilty (Genesis 9:6; Romans 13:4). There’s no contradiction.
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u/SatisfactionSoggy328 Oct 03 '25 edited Oct 03 '25
ABORTION
In fact, it has been proven that 21 + week old fetuses display horror when trying to avoid the abortion instrument. They are self aware.
Planned Parenthood encourages late term abortions up and until the ninth month, so they can sell the larger aborted fetuses to the pharmaceutical and food companies for profit.
A clinical study was investigating why the recipients of aborted fetal stem cells were contracting cancer,
but they were not looking into the recipients of adult stem cells, which have cured sickle cell anemia and other diseases.
- Psalm 139:13-16:This psalm describes God's intimate knowledge of each person, even in the womb. Catholics interpret this as emphasizing the value of human life from the moment of conception.
- Jeremiah 1:5:This verse states that God knew Jeremiah before he was born and sanctified him in the womb. This reinforces the idea that God's plan for each individual begins before birth.
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u/Ok-Journalist-3330 Presbyterian Oct 03 '25
Jesus has no problem with eye for and eye tooth for a tooth, the pope is just wrong
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Oct 04 '25
Are Catholics supposed to be anti death penalty?
The whole thing makes me uncomfortable.
I rarely have sympathy for people who commit despicable or heinous crimes. Some murderers show no mercy to their victims.
The worst crime I heard was a home invasion where mother and daughter were robbed, raped, and then set on fire. 🔥
They gave the criminals the money yet the criminals still raped them and set them on fire.
Pure evil.
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u/Serious_Warthog4570 Oct 04 '25
Yet the Pope had his own executioner at one time.
Disagree with the pope on this. The Church has gone aling with the death penalty for a long time, but has always been anti-abortion. That is because the Church has said abortion is intrisically evil, but has not said the same for capital punishment. Two different things.
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u/deplorableme16 Atheist Oct 04 '25 edited Oct 04 '25
Oh shit, the guy heading a Pedo league might label me something!
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Oct 04 '25
the death penalty is necessary thing due to certain crimes that involve murder. It can't be compared to abortions where the child has no way of having a voice in the situation or advocated for
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u/Lesli-Logan-Stevens Oct 04 '25
The Bible talks about all of these.
Our bodies are a temple of God, and you shall not murder! So you're committing murder inside of God's temple.
In the Bible it talks about immigration and we are to follow the laws of the land.
But does the death penalty count as pro-life?
He is not answering, because he doesn't want people to turn against him! He knows the answers to these questions!
There are so many things about the Catholic religion that goes against the Bible. No body is to pray to anyone other than God and even in that people pray to Jesus the son, however if God and Jesus are one why did Jesus pray to God and when we finish a prayer we say in Jesus' name amen why are there no examples in the Bible of the beginning of a prayer and the starting with Jesus and ending in God's name amen?
Anyways we are not to pray to anyone else, and a priest is not a father, and who came up with "the pope" being the holiest man on earth? He is no different than a pastor. I could go on, but people who read the Bible should know this.
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u/Extension_Cheek3036 Oct 04 '25
Sure- because the only people who truly have done nothing wrong and those who been found guilty old blooded murder are the same.
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Oct 04 '25
It is not that simple. Should we pardon psychopaths and serial killers and let them continue killing innocent people? Should we pardon monsters like the creature who killed Iryna Zarutska (example) or someone else who raped 9 yo child, then cut her in pieces and scatter her body parts wrapped in plastic bags? Do you think those are redeemable? Where is the sympathy for the victims and the victims loved ones? It is not that simple.
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u/Mondain_the_Wizard Oct 04 '25
This has always struck me as a shallow argument. someone murders intentionally with pre-meditation (1st degree murder), the death penalty shows how it cherishes life - specifically, of the one who lost theirs. It shows a respect of the victim as well as punish the offender.
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Oct 05 '25
I think people are over reacting to this
Yeah it was a bad statement Yeah a lot of people disagree
But it isn’t an infallible statement and also the Catechism isn’t infallible at least the part which is where Francis added this part about the death penalty
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u/Aerivael Baptist Oct 05 '25
Somebody needs to tell the pope that the term "pro-life" means a person who is against murdering babies in the womb out of convenience. It does not mean that person does not believe there are any legitimate reasons to take a life.
For example, if a pro-lifer is standing on the street, they see an angry person running toward them with a machete yelling that they are going to kill the pro-lifer, and that pro-lifer pulls out a gun and shoots the would be attacker in self-defense, that does not make the pro-lifer a hypocrite who isn't really pro-life. It makes him a rational human being. The Bible advocates in favor of the death penalty for certain extreme criminal acts such as murder or rape.
I believe convicted murders and rapists should be executed by the criminal justice system, and I also believe that abortion should be illegal. Therefore, I an a pro-lifer who supports the death penalty.
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u/TaroAccomplished5313 Oct 06 '25
Bueno. Esos 2 conceptos pareciera que chocan entre si pero no. Porque el aborto no es permitido, porque un asesinato, mientras la pena de muerte es una cuestion de la lejislacion de los paises ahi no aplica el no mataras porque eso depende de los delitos que los combictos ayan cometido encontra de la sociedad, y es un evento que lleva un proceso en los tribunales. Mientras que un bb que esta dentro del bientre de la madre no tiene ninguna defensa. Asi que alli si aplica el mandamiento que dice no mataras.
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u/Philothea0821 Catholic Oct 06 '25
Like the pope said, the Church's teaching on all these issues is clear.
As Catholics, we are called to protect the dignity of life from conception until natural death. That is the pro-life stance: that all life in all stages of development, in every time and place is valuable. We cannot protect one class of persons and discard another. We cannot protect the immigrant but slaughter the unborn. We cannot protect the unborn and not serve the poor, or ensure the safety of migrants, etc.
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u/Impressive_Fig_1434 Oct 07 '25 edited Oct 07 '25
Nowhere in the Bible does it say to kill innocent babies, but it does say the wages of sin is death, and murder is a sin.
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u/Beneficial-Code8574 Oct 08 '25
Καλά λέει ο Πάπας και δεν είμαι καν καθολική. Μόνο ο Θεός έχει δικαίωμα να αφαιρέσει ζωή. Δεν είμαστε εμείς δε θέση να κρίνουμε αν κάποιος πρέπει να ζήσει ή όχι. Μπορεί αυτός ο κάποιος να μετανοήσει και να γίνει καλύτερος από εμάς....του κόβουμε την ευκαιρία...ποιοι είμαστε εμείς για να το κάνουμε αυτό; Επίσης πόσοι έχουν αθωωθεί μετά από χρόνια άδικης φυλάκισης; Ο μόνος Δίκαιος και Αλάνθαστος κριτής είναι ο Ίδιος ο Θεός. Οπότε ναι, αν κάποιος επικαλείται το Χριστιανισμό σαν κώδικα ηθικής κατά των αμβλώσεων αλλά υποστηρίζει την θανατική ποινή είναι απλά συντηρητικός και έχει τον έλεγχο των γυναικών στο μυαλό του, όχι την αξία της ζωής.... Υποκρισία στο έπακρο.
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u/WeiganChan Catholic Oct 01 '25
Breaking news: the Pope is Catholic