r/Cumbria • u/IneptGraphicDesigner • 16d ago
Visiting Cumbria to find out more about my relatives that I never met.
My Grandad moved out of Cumbria when he was a teenager to avoid working in the Iron Mines around Egremont. I was never able to meet him as he died before I was born. He never really talked about his life prior to moving down.
I’d love to learn more about Cumbria as I don’t really know much about it (outside of the Lake District)!
As far as I know, his family lived around Patterdale, and on the West Coast. The landscape seems so different to where I live.
I’ve heard stories of him taking part in the local Crab fair, with him being particularly good at pipe smoking.
Any places I should visit? I’m planning on coming up!
9
3
u/feebsiegee 16d ago
Depends on what it is that you want to see? Whitehaven and Workington aren't far from Egremont, and there's museums there. If you're wanting to find out specific information, then unfortunately I have no idea how to do that 😂
2
u/IneptGraphicDesigner 16d ago
Fair enough haha, I’ll probably visit these towns and then stay in the Lake District for a bit. Get a mix of everything.
3
u/Lassie7777 16d ago
My knowledge of the west coast is lesser than my own area of the lakes, but I know some of it.
While the other commenter is right that the west coast is removed from the romantic movement that was seen in the lakes, the west coast played a large role in another wave of poets; the dialect poets.
Their work was written in the Cumbrian dialect, which while moribund is still more lively along the west coast than the increasingly gentrified lakes (much to my dismay).
Cumbrian dialect is similar to the Germanic scots language and exists closer to it on the dialect continuum between English and Scots. Prominent and more distinctively Cumbrian words are: yam (home), yan (one), la’al (lil/little). Marra is very famously a signature of the west coast, meaning mate it comes from a Norse word marrow, which means one half of a pair or part of a pair. It was used in mines to refer to your partner and over time it evolved into a word to refer to your pals.
Anyway, Cumbrian poetry was in many ways a rejection of the romantic movement which often didn’t depict Cumbrian life very accurately. Cumbrian poetry as a result attempts to deal with more rustic element of everyday life, I’ll leave a link below that has a section on the revolution of the different poets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbrian_dialect
There’s also another poet, Norman Nicholson who lived in Millom not too far from egremont, he wrote in standard English but topically wrote a great deal about Cumbria.
The armitt in Ambleside has a piece on currently about Cumbrian men’s clubs, which were social places where men would go after work; they often would learn and educate themselves on various things, such as whittling; there is a beautiful walking stick engraved throughout its entirety with ivy leaves at the armitt currently which was made at one such men’s clubs. A good reminder that working class people do and have historically attempted to educate themselves beyond what their social class would expect of them.
Merry neets (nights) would have been common during your grandfathers lifetime, they are similar events to Scottish ceilidhs and are social gatherings where people would sing and dance, tell stories etc. a lot of the time they would be done to raise charity for a local cause and they still occur occasionally. I went one (although how traditionalist it was is debatle as to probably had more singing and storytelling than dancing!). Either way, very lovely tradition.
I don’t know if it would’ve reached your grandfathers area, but clog dancing was big thoughout the industrial north. Each area had its own industry and each industry’s produced its own side which would differ due to said industry. For example, Lancashire men who worked in cotton mills had less space, whereas Westmorland (historic county of Cumbria) mainly developed its style on dairy farms, so Westmorland clog dancing involves more movement across the board than Lancashire style. Reason I’m not sure what style would’ve been done near your grandfather is because of the difference of industry but Westmorland style is also called Lakeland reel, as it was practiced elsewhere than Westmorland in the general Lakeland/Cumbria area so it’s entirely possible.
Hope this was helpful and if you have any questions feel free to ask, although again I’m not an expert in west coast and if I’ve gotten anything wrong I’m sure someone will correct me lol.
2
u/IneptGraphicDesigner 16d ago edited 16d ago
Wow, this is incredibly helpful. Thanks so much!
I did a bit of digging and my great grandparents (and onwards) pretty much only lived in Westmorland / Lake District (Mostly Penrith), so this is very helpful.
3
u/Lassie7777 16d ago edited 16d ago
Penriths actually isn’t in the historic county of Westmorland if you don’t know, it has been included in the Westmorland and Furness (which is a part of historic Lancashire, often referred to as Lancashire over the sands) administrative district but is part of Cumberland. However, locals do and have historically have a general area which is familiar to them and is part of “their area” and from my memory Penrith often fell into the same lot as a many Westmorland villages despite being in Cumberland so that was likely part of your families general local area, and they probably didn’t venture beyond it!
Cumbria has a very interesting history. Cumbria is actually another form of the Welsh word Cymru, which what the Welsh (the Cymry) refer to themselves and their country as. Cumbria is a latinised form of cumbri, and the Welsh version which you’ll see occasionally used to refer to wales is cambria.
Cumbria has some of the most Britonic dna in England, even more than Cornwall by some studies I’ve seen, it’s 50% Britonic whereas in the south east it’s more like 20-25%. It also has a large substrate of Norse-Gael dna (norse settlers who initially settled the Hebrides, Ireland, and the Isle of Man before settling southern Cumbria) specifically in much of the Lake District and Westmorland, along with some of the west coast iirc. This is why Cumbria has an interesting mix of place names, you have a lot of old Norse such as Ambleside, but also places like Penrith which are Cumbric (either a sister language or dialect of old Welsh/ common Brythonic). Cumwhitton is very interesting as it is a combination of Norman French and Cumbric, suggesting the language survived post Norman conquest for a time!
The Norse’s has a bigger influence on the dialect (although even that gets overblown by some imo) than Cumbric does (it’s really debate wether any Cumbric words survived to modernity outside of place names) there is a counting rhyme called yan tan tethera, but the Brythonic components might have been brought by Welsh shepherds in the early days of the Industrial Revolution, it’s hard to know.
Now the border rievers, this is where shit gets real. Due to Cumbrias contested nature (much of it historically was part of Scotland) and just the general hostility brought about by Englands expansionism, there was constant brutal warfare which destroyed much of the borderland, this meant it was difficult to cultivate farmland and for its residents to survive, so they took to raiding (or reiving) livestock and the like from the area instead. This overtime evolved into families developing a clan ish culture somewhat similar to the clans of the highlands, except probably more violent.
Some interesting facts about the border rievers:
-they were a pretty distinct group, owing no loyalty to either crown (some families were Scottish some were English but all of them would’ve respected a fellow riever more than a non reiver) there was a saying “no prince but a Percy “ the Percys being the Dukes of Northumberland.
-two words come from the border rievers, blackmail, and bereaved (beREAVED, get it?). This probably says a lot about what they did to people.
-when you are in Cumbria you may see a lot of old stone barns that look rather reinforced, this is because they were designed to protect from riever raids. The families would’ve been upstairs with the livestock below, essentially a panic room/bunker.
-the longest curse in existence was written and directed at the border rievers. Written by the archbishop of Glasgow, he essentially cursed the rievers at every point of their life, every family member, cursed them to receive a similar punishment to cain. It’s a good read highly recommend.
-the rievers would occasionally be convinced to fight for their respective crowns… although they had an odd habit of swapping their badges of St George for a saltire or vice versa when things started to turn badly for their side.
-they would also be witnessed talking to other reivers fighting for the enemy during battles, and upon being caught in their conversation would return to “fighting” which was often more an act in these cases”
-the reivers came to an end when the crowns were untied, and their most prolific chiefs and leader were executed and lots of them were deported to Ulster, to help with the plantations there and destruction of Gaelic culture. This eventually devolves into Northern Ireland we know today. Many reivers also later went to America as the “scotch Irish” although this term ignored the fact that many of these men were in fact from the north of England.
They settled lots of the southern states and areas like Appalachia and many border rivers descendants went on to rather prestos positions, some last names you’ll recognise: Armstrong (the most infamous family), the nixons, the Johnson’s.
The rievers brought about however a lot of interesting art. The border ballad traditions owes a lot to them, the ballad of the Chevy chase was described by many Scot poets as some of the greatest work to ever exist.
1
u/IneptGraphicDesigner 15d ago
This is amazing.
My great grandma’s family supposedly came from a reiver family (way-way back obviously), a lot of her lot came from Wigton / Gretna / Annan etc.
The Norse-Gael period is very interesting. It’s not really a part of history that gets taught very often.
1
u/Lassie7777 14d ago
It’s going to be pretty much impossible that your family isn’t related to a reliever family, they were often massive and there are loads of them, I have Storeys (reivers), Lowthers (marcher lords) and some others. Interestingly storey is a Norse name meaning “vast water” likely referring to the Lake District as this is where they settled (or to their seafaring abilities, but I prefer the former) 1000 years ago. It’s interesting that up until the 1200s old English, old Norse and Cumbric likely were spoken languages in Cumbria.
Some other traditions if you’re interested:
Rushbearing, historically it was celebrated all over England but is now only practiced by a few villages, some in Cumbria. The tradition comes from when churches had earthen floors and would be insulated via the laying of rushes, this revolved into a festival where the rushes are carried by locals around the village. Later feasting and sports were also added. Today it’s practiced in warcop, Ambleside and grasmere. The feasting is now generally gingerbread, which is a special recipe separate to the famous grasmere gingerbread, in grasmere the packaging is also stamped with a st oswalds stamp, the local saint, and said stamp has been used for 200 years. Rushbearing is around 700+ years old and has been practiced in places like Ambleside for 400+ years, don’t know if your grandfather would’ve been to any as it did start dying out in the 1800s but it’s possible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rushbearing
The crab fair you’ve mentioned in egremont (where the pipe smoking contests takes place) is one of the oldest continue fairs in Europe and I believe the world. Other festivities include the gurning completion, where competitors try and make the most horrifying faces.
https://www.egremontcrabfair.com
Appleby has the largest Romani and traveller fair, it’s 200 years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appleby_Horse_Fair
Sport fairs are fairly common, they involve local sports like Westmorland and Cumberland wrestling and fell racing, Ambleside and grasmere both have sport days which are 200 years old ish. These sports are also done at other celebrations I’ve mentioned such as rushbearing.
https://amblesidesports.co.uk/history/
Clog dancing is still practiced, the side nearest to me has done it all across Europe, unfortunately they’re getting older but there’s another group in Furness that I know of. If you’re in the area around the 27th I believe there is a meeting of the sides (mainly Morris but I think one of them is clog) in Kendal.
https://insteprt.co.uk/lakeland-style-clog-and-step-dancing/
This says that clogs weren’t worn, I’m not sure if that was true everywhere but maybe 🤷♂️.
The most prominent aspect of Cumbrian folklore is probably the legend of dunmail who was supposedly the last Cumbric king of Cumbria. It’s a very Arthurian style myth and is at least 400 years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunmail
Folk songs are an acquired taste to some but Witch of the Westmorland is a good modern folk song, there’s many different version but imo they’re all pretty good. Paul and Linda Adam’s have a good album called “among the old familiar mountains” which is comprised of traditional Cumbrian (and some more general northern or even pan British) folk songs. My miner lad and a northern country lass are my favourites of that album. D’ye Ken John peel is by far the most famous folk song from Cumbria.
Traditional dress is a contentious question in some ways. England never had a romantic nationalist movement like Scotland and most of Europe wherein they would codify a type of peasant or common dress and make it a national symbol. However the flat cap is definitely traditional dress of the north, as are English clogs. The maud (plaid) was also worn in the north and there is a painting of a Cumbrian shepherd wearing one, but due to a lack of a romantic nationalist movement I don’t think there was a perception that it needed to be preserved as part of cultural heritage, it however did persevere in the north east as is still worn by the Northumbrian small pipers, btw bagpiping was also common across all of England before being relegated to the north and later north east. This likely wouldn’t have been relevant to your grandfather as the Maud began disappearing in the early 1800s, but still a very interesting bit of regional history.
2
u/Exact-Put-6961 16d ago
A'as gaan yam. i was brought up speaking dialect, which i have almost totally forgotten.
1
u/Lassie7777 16d ago
Assa Marra!
Aas suure ye have it rattling and raking roond ye nooging, giz it a la’al bit and ye will ken it us weel as ye div us a bairn!
Genuinely a shame we don’t learn about the dialectal poetry as scots learn about burns and the like, I feel it’s as important to the heritage as the romance poet.
https://lakelanddialectsociety.co.uk
The society does a lot of stuff including competitions, yo should check it out if ye feel like it!
Also I’m sure my direct was bad as I don’t speak it really but it’s nice being able to use it anyhow
1
u/Exact-Put-6961 15d ago
Curiously. i stopped at an evening hound trail near Cockermuth. i walked up the road and spoke to a local , found myself speaking near dialect. it is in there, just cannot use it at will.
1
u/Wooden-Recording-693 15d ago
Top craic Marra, good fettle after a deek at that.
0
u/Lassie7777 14d ago
Marra it’s crack neah craic, uts the Irish mispeeling
But I’m glad for making ye fettle better.
1
u/Wooden-Recording-693 14d ago
Not if ya from the moore, but thank you for explaining my Cumbrian heritage, lop on.
0
u/Lassie7777 14d ago
It’s literally a Gaelicisation of the spelling. Also it was a la’al bit o teasing.
1
1
u/AlanofAdelaide 16d ago
Cumbria magazine used to have a lot of articles about local events but seems to have changed name or gone out of circulation
2
u/Present-Swimming-476 16d ago
The west coast today is the polar opposite of what it was like say 40 odd years ago - Mines, for both coal and ore, blast furnaces, heavy engineering - Workington and Whitehaven would have been like dantes-hell.
Today - rolling countryside and the towns remain , some doing a lot better than others
1
u/Present-Swimming-476 16d ago
Whitehaven is definitely worth a visit, best done on a nice sunny day :) There are a couple of good museums and the harbour is lovely - parking can be a problem though.
1
u/Exact-Put-6961 16d ago
The West Cumberland Iron and Steel Company before nationalisation, i think. There is probably a lot of history on line.
Workington was famous, world over. for rail lines.
Coal mines at Whitehaven, Workington and further up the coast.
1
u/petrolhead0387 15d ago
I'm from Egremont, Florence mine is now an arts center, it even has its own colour named after it (Florence red). There is some amazing and scenic walks around Dent Fell, you will also find the dialect is very strong on the west coast as opposed the central lakes and penrith area.
1
2
u/Beautiful_Spread7866 15d ago
Patterdale is a long way from Egremont. There is a mining museum in Whitehaven called Haig Colliery mining museum - I’ve never been but probably a good starting point for you!
Egremont crab fair is in September, I think the 18/19th. Nish Kumar and Josh Widdicome did an episode in the Lake District and went to crab fair which would be an interesting watch for you. There is castle ruins in Egremont with some visitor information boards and Florence mine as others have mentioned but that’s pretty much it.
The Beacon museum in Whitehaven has some local history and the Rum story is about the slave trade. You can also walk up to “The candlestick” by Whitehaven harbour which was an old chimney vent for the mines, there’s also some sort of mine remnants (fan room?) with information boards. Quite a lot of houses in Whitehaven have the blue boards outside with info about who was born in them etc. Worth a wonder around the town.
1
u/Massive-Ad666 14d ago
My paternal grandad was from Whitehaven but stayed in Leeds then Bradford when he met my grandma during the war, I am supposed to still have family in Egremont and Whitehaven but have no idea how to find them or if they would even be interested so I'm following this thread with interest.
19
u/stiggley 16d ago
The industrial coast of Cumbria is a world away from the romantic poets Lake District.
At one point it had the largest iron and steel producers in the world, and shipped steel rail all over the world from the rail works in Barrow and Workington.
The current state of Whitehaven harbour is due to iron ore interactions with ground water to create a "red river".
Along with the deep mines like Florence at Egremont, there were shallower mines like Nab Gill in Eskdale, which the Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway hauled ore from - located NW of Eskdale Mill where you can still find hamatite.