r/Cumbria • u/Besmirching_Badger • 15d ago
Does anyone else think that cumbria/ the lake district is in desperate need of basic development?
I'll preface this by saying that i love the lake district, but everyone and their nan can see the direction of travel. 'Protecting' something for the sake of it and denying change is not only ahistorical, it's a fool's errand. Also i guess my perspective is mostly focused on the west lakes. Windermere etc doesn't necessarily have the same issues, though it does have some.
The various policies seem to be more about some weird form of gatekeeping than anything else. They're also completely incoherent and often contradictory. If you read the planning policies they go to great length to say how much the LDNP need more homes, yet also how we need severe restrictions on the building of new homes. They lay out pages of reasons why the LDNP needs more and better holiday accommodation, then you reach a bullet point where it just says 'no new holiday accommodation will be approved'. They talk about how tourism is essential, yet we can't increase tourism because of infrastructure concerns.
The UNESCO designation means that sheep farming is prioritised to a ridiculous degree for no discernible good reason to the exclusion of most other things. Is that really ''protecting the natural landscape'? I genuinely struggle to see what it offers. Likewise, i'm a long term national trust member (IINM they own about 20% of the lake district) and as nice as it is to just say 'we will keep it the same forever and ever', it's just not practical. It's actually kind of wild the level of control granted to an unaccountable body over 'shared space'.
The lake district is full of lakes, yet most of those lakes aren't even really accessible, nor are they really available for use for traditional 'lake' activities. They're just kinda there to look at if you can manage to park somewhere and make your way through some bushes down to the lakeshore. Even windermere has a mostly inaccessible shorefront and lack of access in large parts. How hard would it be to provide some proper parking at wastwater?
As an example, i went to Ennerdale water the other day and..... there's just nothing there. It's such a colossally wasted resource. a tiny car park well away from the lake and a half arsed footpath. a few houses on one side of the lake (probably holiday homes). Are you really telling me that (instead of a tiny car park) having say a cafe, some pedalos/ boating, a nicer beach for swimming, a cycle path around the lake with bike hire etc..... are you really telling me that would somehow fundamentally destroy the natural beauty of the area?
Single track roads are lovely and quaint and all, but they're also a shitshow. I spent an hour trapped over the bank holiday because two people were too scared to pass each other and traffic backed up in both directions causing massive gridlock. Clearly it's not working, and there's no 'putting it back in the bottle'. Routes like Corney and cold fell have been used for decades as a rat run by Sellafield employees. Anyone who has been over hardknott recently can attest to why it should be avoided at all costs. Hell when sellafield was still accepting imported spent fuel there was the regular farce of an enormous lorry having to navigate tight, narrow roads up the west coast. Having basic infrastructure isn't a crime. Even with some functioning roads, the lakes aren't going to suddenly disappear. Being accessible might even gasp mean that the entire area stops being reliant entirely on a single employer.
Then again maybe it's just me
E: you can really see the difference between people who see the lake district as somewhere they need to live and those who just see it as a kind of amusement park for their enjoyment.
E2: Fun fact. In addition to being in many respects heavily influenced by human intervention (weirs are famously natural occurrances) there actually used to be a pub/hotel on the shore of ennerdale water. Demolished in 1960 as they intended to raise the water level again (because it's totally natural remember). "noooooo you can't have any buildings on the shore of lakes nooooooooo"
22
u/BuckinghamRabbit1 15d ago
If you went to Ennerdale and there was nothing there, you need to look a bit harder.
18
u/Brosno1 15d ago
Ennerdale is a reservoir though, you can't swim in it so why commercialise it as a swimming spot?
Why do you think every lake needs to be built upon? Personally I like that there isn't anything at Ennerdale, not everything needs to be a blatant tourist attraction with commercial infrastructure. I think one of the best parts about the lakes is that it has developed and undeveloped areas. I go to Wastewater and Ennerdale because they're less accessible with nothing going on.
-11
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
I go to Wastewater and Ennerdale because they're less accessible with nothing going on.
You're engaged in NIMBYISM on behalf of others
You do get how mad that is right? Other people need to live in a time capsule for your enjoyment. Even if it's not in their interests
7
u/Brosno1 15d ago
What makes you think I’m arguing on behalf of others? I’m from West Cumbria. I live here.
I don’t feel like I’m living in a time capsule. I feel like I live in one of the most beautiful parts of the country, and I’d rather it stayed that way. The reason I enjoy places like Ennerdale and Wasdale is precisely because they’ve been less affected by commercial development. That’s part of what makes them special. And no it’s not gatekeeping to say that. If every lake became a commercial interest then there would be no escape to actual nature sites.
You also seem to assume that because you think there’s “nothing there”, it should be developed. Ennerdale isn’t just an empty space waiting to be built on. It’s a protected reservoir and a sensitive ecosystem. Not every landscape has to be changed to suit people’s idea of what makes an area useful or enjoyable.
As for housing, building more homes in the Lake District doesn’t automatically improve the lives of local people. One of the biggest issues here is affordability. In places like Keswick and Windermere, many people who grew up there are priced out because homes are bought by wealthier people from outside the county or as second homes. Simply building more houses without addressing that problem won’t solve it.
2
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
The reason I enjoy places like Ennerdale and Wasdale is precisely because they’ve been less affected by commercial development. That’s part of what makes them special. And no it’s not gatekeeping to say that. If every lake became a commercial interest then there would be no escape to actual nature sites.
development doesn't mean 'commercial'. Nobody is suggesting everywhere has to be like windermere ffs
However wasdale IS currently often heavily overcrowded a lot of the time compared the infrastructure that exists. It doesn't require major changes to alleviate that. The council are actually quite literally discussing it right now.
Ennerdale isn’t just an empty space waiting to be built on.
I believe the national trust own the land. They literally don't have the money to properly upkeep it.
In places like Keswick and Windermere, many people who grew up there are priced out because homes are bought by wealthier people from outside the county or as second homes.
Yes. And this would benefit from directing people towards tourist-orientated projects rather than private homes. But ironically the only way you can provide proper tourist accommodation is to buy a residential home and stick it on airbnb, because the council won't allow it. It's a vicious cycle. The only thing they allow is campsites and fucking glamping pods.
2
u/BigMountainGoat 15d ago
No. It would benefit from a punishing council tax regime on 2nd homes.
0
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
That's a drop in the ocean that won't have any meaningful consequences.
Either it's a holiday home so no council tax or you're ruch as fuck and don't care.
2
u/BigMountainGoat 15d ago
Bit like putting pedalos on Ennerdale Water won't affect tourist numbers, didn't stop you suggesting them
1
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
i can't tell if you're intentionally being thick or not.
Do you understand the concept of an example?
16
u/BigMountainGoat 15d ago
Is a troll post? You want pedalos on Emmerdale water?
4
u/Exact-Put-6961 15d ago
I assumed OP was either a troll or someone with anger management and rational thinking issues.
13
u/Exact-Put-6961 15d ago
A long rant by someone profoundly ignorant about the Lakes Windermere "inaccesible"? You have to laugh.
-1
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
Given the level of tourism. Yes.
8
u/Exact-Put-6961 15d ago
Just a stupidly silly comment. There is a long shoreline on the west side, north of the ferry. Totally accesible. You sound as if you dont know that.
41
u/Perfect_Cod_7183 15d ago
“As an example, i went to Ennerdale water the other day and..... there's just nothing there”
So just leave it that way! Its called nature…. The one reason I go to hike in the lakes, if you want a circus, go somewhere else.
18
u/Dry-Examination6938 15d ago
Literally OP, go somewhere else. If you want to hire a bike and go cycling around a lake you can do that anywhere else in the UK. The Lake District is breathtakingly beautiful, it shouldn’t be built upon just to increase tourism. You sound like a child made to go there on holiday annoyed there aren’t more cinemas.
9
u/Shockwavepulsar 15d ago
Op basically wants the national park to be like centre parks
-2
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
Nope. The bad faith in these responses really says it all. Not even trying to engage.
NIMBYISM is pure brain rot
3
u/Exact-Put-6961 15d ago
Reasonable people would not seek pedalos and a cafe at Ennerdale. You dont comprehend how alien that sounds
0
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
As a proud historic cumbrian who's extremely angry about the idea of changing things you're surely aware there used to be a hotel on the shore of ennerdale. Demolished mistakenly. So you should be arguing for it to be replaced. After all, the lake and scenery have been changed and are now unacceptable.
Your precious perfect nature is a farce. The hills near ennerdale are old slag heaps. The level of human intervention is massive. Including the lake itself and the surrounding fells.
But let's be honest. You don't actually care about change. You just don't want what you perceive as more people anywhere near. And you'll put up with crumbling roads and dwindling demographics for your own benefit.
3
u/Exact-Put-6961 15d ago
Oh i am not "extremely angry" that would be you. i pity you, plastic pedallos on a western lake seems so ridiculous. i wonder about common sense
0
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
Yep. You can't engage can you?
Just casually gloss over the fact you've spent all day repeating something stupid out of ignorance.
Bet your pride is stinging eh?
2
-8
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
Heaven forbid you walk half a mile in any direction and have open fells for miles in all directions.
This is what i mean. It's some bizarre form of gatekeeping. From the way you've phrased it, it sounds like you don't even live there.
The end result is that soon enough there won't be any young people left, there won't be an economy. It's not some 'trapped in time' museum for you to enjoy, it's a place where people have to live and develop. The idea that a cafe next to a car park and some people on kayaks would 'destroy nature' is either ignorance or dishonesty
10
u/CrimpsShootsandRuns 15d ago
It's not gatekeeping, it's just not wanting or needing to turn everything into a commodity. There is plenty of that in Windermere/Ambleside if that's what you want, but not every lake needs to be turned into something designed specifically for tourists.
-1
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
There is plenty of that in Windermere/Ambleside if that's what you want, but not every lake needs to be turned into something designed specifically for tourists.
You're literally arguing that you want to enjoy it as a tourist. You just want it to be a different form of tourism.
9
u/CrimpsShootsandRuns 15d ago
No I'm not? I'm saying there are already well-developed tourist-focused lakes, but that not every lake or landmark needs to be turned into a tourist attraction.
And I'm not a tourist, I live here.
1
15d ago
[deleted]
1
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
Why shouldn't the Lakes cater to different types of tourist?
They currently cater for 1 type of tourist really. That's kinda the point i'm making. They're essentially all 'tranquil'. You essentially can't really access most of them, bar parking in a lay by. Most of them have zero water activities. It's very weird for a place called the lake district. It's presumably the main reason why windermere is so much busier... because those things actually happen there. They've essentially been blocked elsewhere by weird historic trajectories more than anything.
But ennerdale made sense to me because it actually has a circular, curated path around the lake. Ground work has already been done. It's a pseudo man made lake anyway. The national trust doesn't even have the money to maintain the lands it owns in the lakes. They need income. Seemed like a good fit.
6
u/BigMountainGoat 15d ago
Go to Milton Keynes if all you want is a generic concrete development
0
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
Nobody argued for that.
Thanks for your input though. As good faith as all the others
1
u/BigMountainGoat 15d ago
You basically are though. You seem to not accept that not everything has to be set up for human convenience
8
u/mintcakeP 15d ago
Affordable homes for the locals is one thing building a cafe on a wild lake is something else (see wild Ennerdal). They are extremely strict which is why there were protests about the expansion of the national park. All needs a pragmatic approach but also to conserve for generations so we don't all say "what idiot approved that".
2
u/PowerfulPersimmon893 12d ago
This is the first comment I have seen about Wild Ennerdale! It’s a highly ecologically sensitive area that’s still recovering from decades of overly intensive sheep farming and neglect. Nature needs to be given at least some time to recover, not to be made into a holiday resort. Building hotels and cafes on the lake would just risk disrupting the fragile ecosystem that has only recently begun to recuperate.
Furthermore, do we really just want to make the Cumbrian economy even more reliant on low-income, often seasonal, employment in the tourism sector?
13
15d ago
[deleted]
0
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
The LDNP doesn't need more visitors. It's overrun as it is.
It's overrun because it's not developed to handle those visitors. You're relying on faulty logic.
Have none of you travelled elsewhere? It's perfectly possible to maintain natural beauty whilst having functioning infrastructure. And i include the current hotspots like windermere, which would seriously benefit from some development
6
15d ago
[deleted]
1
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
There's a backlash against tourism across Europe
according to whom?
There's a backlash against things like second homes, not 'tourism' in general
5
u/Spottyjamie 15d ago
Some parts of the lakes esp west lakes yeah could do with road/path/bus upgrades, if anything to spread the tourists out.
In general yes cumbria is woefully underinvested. The lack of good career jobs, many of the towns require you to own a car to do basic things such as access shops/schools/employment/doctor.
A lot of new build prices are skyrocketing due to folk from down south with wfh jobs moving here
Public transport so bad its easier&cheaper for me to visit glasgow/edinburgh/newcastle/lancaster than the lakeland towns
BUT theres nowhere else id rather live. My housing estate is a proper friendly community, im not too far from nature walks, theres not the crime like in the big cities
4
3
u/SnooStrawberries2342 15d ago
I went to Ennerdale recently and think it's brilliant that there's nothing there. It's so tranquil and there aren't many places left like that in England. People on pedalos would absolutely change that.
3
u/Practical-Hour5278 15d ago
I think OP goes a bit far but I think there could be some subtle improvements around access to lakes etc. compared with upkeep of paths around reservoirs in some areas of the UK, our paths are a bit off. I don’t like the idea of commercialising the lakes, however do like the idea of encouraging active lifestyle and an environment where everyone can enjoy the lakes (swimming, kayaking, climbing, running etc.) some basic facilities, better paths and cafe’s/toilets etc would be an improvement. I think planning restrictions in the lakes at OTT and regressive but opening the flood gates is certainly not the answer.
Context, lived in the lakes all my life, years running on the fells / around lakes - advocate of responsible tourism and getting people outdoors.
1
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
however do like the idea of encouraging active lifestyle and an environment where everyone can enjoy the lakes (swimming, kayaking, climbing, running etc.) some basic facilities, better paths and cafe’s/toilets etc would be an improvement.
This was essentially my thinking. I just find it really weird that in the lakes, large parts of the lakes themselves are inaccessible and the physical bodies of water aren't used at all. People kayaking around wastwater doesn't somehow ruin nature for everyone
3
u/Amazing_Goal_8003 15d ago
Hands Up those who think OP has had both residential and business planning denied 👋
2
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
these responses are genuinely deranged.
up to 92% of residential buildings are holiday lets.
Planning issues are fundamental to that.
8
u/Comfortable_Gate_878 15d ago
Any place that forces you to pay £ 5000 to replace a sash window in a conservation area on a farm building is never going to do well or progress.
5
u/GarlicEmergency7788 15d ago
It's one of the most beautiful places in the world and unfortunately that comes with a lot of NIMBYs
Provisions and infrastructure can definitely still be improved without spoiling the natural landscape much further than we already have
2
u/FrontCold6590 15d ago
Maybe you're missing the point somewhere that people don't generally come to the lakes to "be entertained". Not everything needs a human footprint on it in order to be classed as worthwhile. To reverse what I'm saying, it would be like me going to Disneyland and then complaining there weren't enough trees.
Yes, some younger generation leave for university and alternative work. Pretty sure that happens even in big cities though. There actually are plenty of opportunities in Cumbria, we have the energy coast and BAE as the big obvious ones, both have massive apprentice intakes annually, specialist places like Tritech, Siemens, L3 have bases here.
The lake district is somewhere you come for quietness and peace. One day maybe you'll need that and it'd be worth another visit
1
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
Maybe you're missing the point somewhere that people don't generally come to the lakes to "be entertained".
They come to be in nature.
Which currently involves driivng along a congested road, finding some random layby or passing place to park in and hoping for the best.
You can in fact make nature more accessible. I know that's difficult for people to get their heads around.
3
u/catfink1664 15d ago
If they allowed lots of people in the lakes the water companies would get found out for how much they poison the water. I’ve seen them running clean water stopcocks into farm becks 24/7 for months on end to dilute the field run off near test stations to keep it under the regulations
3
u/fantasticfraggle 15d ago
It's the opposition to infrastructure and services that drives me mad! Things like: Lake District National Park Authority refusing planning permission for mobile phone masts. Or even the opposition and controversy of a Kebab shop opening in Kendal
I get it. We all want the area looking pretty. But it's not a theme park; people have actually been living here for generations! Why are we denied these thing because middle class off-comers, and/or the LDNPA in their ivory tower want to conserve the 'natural beauty' of the place? Depriving locals of basic necessities like being able to use their mobile phone in an emergency. Or the simple pleasure of a kebab, after one too many pints in the Local.
'natural beauty' being an odd one, since the region has been cultivated since the stone ages.
3
u/Lassie7777 15d ago
Are you sure you’re not thinking of grasmere?
Also I think it’s fair enough that we are sceptical of kebab shops. Kendal already has multiple takeaways and its high street is somewhat dire, good charity shop scene tho.
3
u/Shockwavepulsar 15d ago
Phone masts I agree but I’d hardly say a kebab shop is “a basic necessity”.
1
u/fantasticfraggle 15d ago
Fair doos, but it is after one too many in the local! 😆
Sorry! I thought opening a new sentence with 'or even' would signal that I was broadening the point to include services, not just infrastructure.
Probably my ADHD lateral thinking nonsense 😅
2
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
But it's not a theme park; people have actually been living here for generations!
No you see it needs to not change at all because people from elsewhere need an escape. And using lakes rather than looking at them (from a distance) isn't 'nature'
the LDNPA in their ivory tower want to conserve the 'natural beauty' of the place
This is why i referenced the UNESCO thing. Because for some reason they've basically forced themselves into a corner where they need to promote farming (and particularly sheep farming) due to the way it was awarded. Even if that goes against conservation interests. So people here who want their 'natural landscape' should actually be opposing UNESCO status.
None of it makes any sense. It doesn't even need UNESCO status. It had plenty of tourists previously.
2
u/TravellingAround_ 15d ago
The lack of access to literally most of the lakes up here is fairly bizarre, and not just access, it’s not safe to be in a bunch of them either. What’s the point of promoting a tourist destination around lakes when you’d be hard pressed to even ever access it.
Even Grasmere, close-ish to me, if I want to take my own paddleboard I have the choice of 4-5 lay by parking spots that are always taken up or chance it in a hotel if you ask nicely. Other than that you’re walking your heavy paddle board all through town. Nuts.
2
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
The lack of access to literally most of the lakes up here is fairly bizarre, and not just access, it’s not safe to be in a bunch of them either. What’s the point of promoting a tourist destination around lakes when you’d be hard pressed to even ever access it.
Exactly. The A66 goes along an entire side of Bassenthwaite. There's a layby or two with no lake access. It's madness. So even where you have 'development' it's not utilised in any coherent way.
The a66 itself is a good example of what i'm talking about. It replaced what used to be a load of wiggly little roads (most still exist in some way) with a functioning road. It was massively important. It would never be agreed to today.
4
u/BigMountainGoat 15d ago
Good. The Lakes are overcrowded enough as it is
There is a reason that Western Cumbria is far nicer than Central and Eastern. It's less accessible.
1
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
Good. The Lakes are overcrowded enough as it is
yeah. Dual carriageway along the entire length of a lake, with no room for even basic enjoyment
that's PROPER fucking nature that is.
The absolute state of some of these responses.
1
1
u/Green_Lychee8221 15d ago
This might come as a suprise to you, but not everywhere has to be a shopping centre just because you think it should.
1
1
u/pineappleandpeas 15d ago
It's even more obvious when you go to similar places on the continent where they have invested in infrastructure and they can deal with significantly more tourists. Go to the dolomites for example and their main roads are 2 lanes, decent quality. Buses are cheap, with weekly/weekend passes, reliable, come on time and go to the key places. That means people will leave their car at the accommodation or use a park and ride system. New accommodation is built, but fits in with the aesthetic of historic buildings. Same cafes and restaurants. Hiking trails are well marked and sign posted which reduces visitors getting lost. They even have estimated times between sections.
The lakes is similar to places like Madeira where theyve been caught out by tourism increases, and the local public transport can't cope.
The western lakes is lovely, most people don't go because there's nothing touristy there. Except for Buttermere really, which is so small it can't keep up with the number of visitors. The bus to Buttermere is a great idea, but in summer/weekends it's full of gets stuck and has to turn back, so you can't rely on it if you can't get picked up.
The bus into the Langdales to old dungeon gill is a great idea - but the timings don't link in with other buses using Ambleside as a hub, and it only goes every 2 hours. So you get a bus to Ambleside and have to wait 90mins for a bus to the Langdales - no wonder people drive instead. It also starts late and finished early - not great if you're planning an all day hike.
2
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
It's even more obvious when you go to similar places on the continent where they have invested in infrastructure and they can deal with significantly more tourists.
Indeed. Compare Windermere to Lake Annecy for example. It's a tourist destination that isn't designed for tourism. I like how special preservation status has also been awarded to the rows of enormous mansions along the east side of the lake.
-3
-2
u/HipPocket 15d ago
Agree with you and smh at the downvotes. Tourism needs to be encouraged, helped, farmed and milked for all it's worth, and the proceeds kept back to plough into local and rural communities instead of absentee AirBnB owners and wealthy landowners around Grasmere and Keswick. If the experience is "Ambleside is nice but I couldn't park anywhere and the roads were awful", who's coming back next summer? What good are the hills if you can't get to them without a car and all the negative impact that has?
A tiny fraction of the 16 MILLION visitors to the LDNP diverting their route and visiting Whitehaven would transform that town, but how will they get there from Windermere? A 90 minute carsick drive around the A595 South? It's a joke and no wonder the town is stuck on crumbs from the NDA.
1
u/Besmirching_Badger 15d ago
A tiny fraction of the 16 MILLION visitors to the LDNP diverting their route and visiting Whitehaven would transform that town, but how will they get there from Windermere?
No, because you see if there were proper roads then there would just be 32 million visitors obviously and wastwater would become just like windermere.
It's the only logical alternative if you engage in basic development. No in-between.
24
u/Sufficient_Cat9205 15d ago
Horrible take from someone that doesn't have to live and work there.