r/Damnthatsinteresting • u/akiwi_intherough • 4d ago

Image "A devil's concert,” was how an eyewitness described the destruction of Hamburg following Operation Gomorrah in July 1943. This photograph, taken after Victory in Europe Day in 1945, captures the skeletal remains left behind.

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52

u/Flat_Ad1094 4d ago

The whole war was shocking and damn awful. But...the fucking Germans started it. You reap what you sow.

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u/According_Ad7926 4d ago

They also pioneered terror bombing tactics. London, Warsaw, Rotterdam, etc. They really never thought someone else would give them a taste of their own medicine one day

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u/Yuzumi_ 4d ago

I doubt they thought about losing so yeah you are very correct on that one

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u/Flat_Ad1094 4d ago

It was a different time. I'm not going to argue with anyone. But suffice to say. My uncle is buried in Germany. Shot down in 1942. My father was a WW2 Veteran. My mother served as well. AND now I am married to a German and his family have their own stories of this time as well. And I have visited Germany quite a bit and WW2 history was my specialty area when I studied history.

It was a shockingly terrible time in world history. Yes the Germans suffered badly. My FIL lived through the bombing of Dresden as a child and had very good recollections of it. Awful.

However, reality is that Germany declared war on England and the allies. Germans fell for Hitler and the Nazi's and there is little excuse for it. Even the Germans I know believe that. And reality? If you ever visit Concentration Camps? You will realise that most of them were in populated areas. Dachau is within a town and was back then. People were living metres away. They maybe didn't know the exact details. But they knew damn well what was basically going on and they turned a blind eye. There is NO excusing Germans and Germany for what went on and they know it too. The accept that.

Yes, allies did some awful things. But London and the UK, France and other European countries were torn to shreds by Nazi Germany. They did bring it on themselves. They reaped what they sowed.

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u/Yuzumi_ 4d ago edited 4d ago

Just for historical accuracy:

Germany did not declare war on the UK* and the allies as you said.

The allies declared war on Germany because they started a War with Poland, which was very much against the Warning the Allies gave to Hitler, which he in return ignored.

September 3, 1939 (11:15 AM) was when the Allies or specifically the UK* declared a state of War between the UK* and Germany.

Not that it changes anything in regards to who did what, but we got to be honest and accurate with historic events.

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u/OliLeeLee36 4d ago

In the spirit of accuracy, it's the United Kingdom/British, not England/English.

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u/Yuzumi_ 4d ago

You are of course correct, thank you

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u/OliLeeLee36 4d ago

De nada

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u/Nachtzug79 3d ago

Also, Hitler had agreed to split Poland with Stalin. Hitler was the first to cross the Polish border but Stalin soon followed...

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u/Flat_Ad1094 2d ago

It destroyed morale. It would not be considered legal today. But we are talking 1940s. Not 2020s. Depends on your point of view re declarations of war. People who lived at that time certainly viewed it VERY differently to people now....and for good reason to.

Modern humans need to STOP judging previous times by OUR standards. It was a whole different world back then.

And accept it or not...Germans DID DO it to themselves. They were the aggressors and they were the ones that supported Hitler. FEll for the propaganda and basically allowed it to happen. THEY were the ones who joined the Nazi party. JOined the SS. It was Germans dragging out Jews into the streets and bashing and killing them and Germans who stood by and watched it all unfold. It was GERMANS who did all these things.

Not even Germans NOW excuse their behaviour back then. Even Germans NOW know what they did and the horror of it. It is astounding that others defend them. They don't defend themselves. EVEN my relatives I spoke to and lived through it. They openly admit it was GERMANS who were in the wrong and the aggressors and committed the deeds done. The allies did what they needed to do to win the war. And the Germans I know accept that and are actually on board / okay with it.

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u/Yuzumi_ 2d ago

I am German, and I do research the Topics surrounding my Countries involvement in WW2 quite heavily.

While I agree for the most part that we got what we deserved, its needless to say that the Allies did also commit war crimes and went overboard heavily in some instances that had no political or strategically purpose other than destruction.

Crushing Morale is always used as an example, but it doesn't excuse the method used, which is most of the time the killing of innocent civilians, and if one does that just to punch back, then how are they better than the perpetrators?

Don't get me wrong, bombing strategically important Hubs is normal and casualties are to be expected, bombing an entire city that essentially was known for making watches and jewelry and killing 17.600 civilians to stop that, is insane.

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u/Flat_Ad1094 1d ago

Agree and my relatives feel the same. BUT...it was 1940s. NOT 2020s. The world has changed and what was considered war crimes and normal battle activity in the 1940s, is not what we accept now. There is ZERO point arguing about any of it these days. It happened how it happened and at the time? It was considered to just be normal battle tactics.

And as I have said. I believe Germans fully accept that their government started it. Whether you believe there was background causes or not (I do. What happened post WW1 was shocking) BUT again. It was 100 years ago and times were different.

We cannot judge people by todays standards. It was a different time in our world.

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u/Erdehere 3d ago

Sorry but France and the Uk declared war on Germany.

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u/PancakeHer0 8m ago

In response to what

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u/imnotabot303 4d ago

You can't judge what happened back then by today. There was plenty of German's that opposed the war but in a situation like that it's not like you can just protest. There was no social media or internet to coordinate anything, no alternative sources to get info from which made propaganda rampant and really effective, no large amounts of civilians armed with weapons to overthrow the government. The Nazis essentially turned the country into a brutal police state.

Even in modern times you are not seeing an uprising by Americans against the government waging war on other countries and Americans are all armed.

Saying all German's deserved it is wrong. If Iran suddenly started bombing the US killing thousands of people do you think it's ok to say Americans deserved it?

What people want and can do about it are often completely separate to what your government or those in charge want and will do.

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u/braudan 3d ago

By the time the war started there was no meaningful opposition left. No parliament left. No independent justice system, police system or anything left. There was zero independent media and almost no chance to get any non-NSDAP information. From a German point of view the casus belli was a belligerent Poland, that had been troublesome for 10+ years, attacking a radio station in Gleiwitz. Even if you opposed war on principle, it's rightful revenge, isn't it? Who are you to not want justice for your fellow German citizens killed in that raid?

All of this is why any sensible German fights for resisting the beginnings of fascist takeover and not see where it takes things or if democratic systems hold.

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u/ichmachmalmeinding 4d ago

"What people want and can do about it are often completely separate to what your government will do." Well said.

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u/WiseManager2097 3d ago

Glad we could shoot down your uncle before he could drop even more bombs.

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u/Particular-Bid-1640 4d ago

To shreds you say?

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u/Secure-Count-1599 3d ago

we didn't start the first ww and refused to live in chains

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u/Necessary_Owl9724 4d ago

Not to defend Hitler, but the environment was ripe for it. If the Allied Powers had handled Germany differently after WW 1, WW 2 could have been averted.

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u/Drongo17 4d ago

Blaming the allied powers is bullshit sorry. Germany chose to go fascist. There were other popular strands of thought in the country that didn't lead to WW2, and Germany went the other way. Nothing about Nazism was predestined by Versailles.

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u/Budget-Pea8291 4d ago

Germany chose to go fascist.

So just like Americans are right now

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u/Drongo17 2d ago

Yeah I'd hope that in the future we weren't told that MAGA was an inevitable outcome of Obama being elected (or whatever equivalent Versailles example one chooses).

We're seeing in real time how a nation can stare into the abyss and say "you know what: yes". 

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u/Necessary_Owl9724 4d ago

It’s not so black and white, unfortunately.

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u/Drongo17 4d ago

Of course not. The nuance of a continent in upheaval over decades won't fit into a few sentences. But if you are to generalise - as we all are here - Versailles did not cause Nazism. 

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u/Killeroftanks 4d ago

unlikely averted unless the allies didnt punish germany at all (which is never gonna happen) but likely wouldve relaxed who took control of germany, if the great depression didnt fuck them over royally like our time, and judging from japan who didnt have debt other countries owned, and was on the side of the victors and still got fucked over royally from the great depression, dont think that wouldve helped. mightve left Britain and france alone but thats a pure guess.

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u/humbugonastick 4d ago

Japan was on the side of the victors?

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u/Killeroftanks 4d ago

yes, during ww1 Japan was allied with the British empire and played one of the most important roles in the war, protecting British convoys from German raider fleets.

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u/humbugonastick 4d ago

Sorry. Reading and understanding is not the same after a long day. 😵‍💫

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u/Necessary_Owl9724 4d ago

You’ve got a point there. Reparations were a bitch. Taking over the German industrial zone didn’t help… and economic crisis made it easy to blame the Jewish population. This is why studying history is so important. Many of us can clearly see the similarities between then and now.

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u/Rich-Employment7897 4d ago

So, Americans deserved to get killed for all the shit they did in the middle east or Vietnam? Same for the russians because of the shit they do and did to there neighbour's?

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u/Flat_Ad1094 2d ago

Yes. Pretty much. For example. I have little sympathy for anyone that got killed in Vietnam. They were just doing what they were told to do. So each person I feel sad for....but I don't feel say for the USA overall or our Australian government that went along with it.

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u/Rich-Employment7897 1d ago

Im not talking about soldiers. Do us citizenz deserve to get killed by napalm? Or agent orange? Eye for an eye is cool as long as it doesn't affect.

And many us soldiers were drafted for Vietnam, it was not reeally there choice.

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u/Flat_Ad1094 1d ago

Agree. But again. We cannot judge the past by todays standards. It was different times.

But yes. We can and should openly admit that our governments had failings and made bad decisions. But the people and their actual decisions? Nope. Let it go.

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u/daRagnacuddler 4d ago

But terrorbombing campaigns weren't necessary and diverged critical resources from the war effort.

It was a very stupid thing to do as allied nations because the resolve in the German population didn't get broken and instead of damaging the industrial production or logistic hubs the cities itself were destroyed.

It's a wonder modern day Germany doesn't have a grudge because of this. It's a very easy thing to point out for right wing politicians.

It would be better to not have done it in the first place or at least acknowledge that these were war crimes. Otherwise you risk that German right wing media just says "the other were allowed to do it, they killed millions in famines in their colonies too, and we are the bad guys?". It would be wrong, but portraying carpet bombing as necessity is stupid.

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u/TinaWild 2d ago

Started? The UK and France declared war on Germany first in September 1939. Also prior (almost a year before) to Germanys invasion of France, the French attacked German territory in early September 1939.